Restructure or Status Quo

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Logging can be assisted by the faction owners within the events. To ensure full accounting I used to run recordings and post them up into Youtube. Even a small modal with auto filling field for characters and their accounts in the area the event takes place, with the output pushed pushed to SQL would suffice.

At least Aspect of Sorrow, one of the most insightful modders on the server that I know of, seem to think some kind of in-game automation is possible, which gives me hope

Absolutely, I think sometimes we forget we can DM'ify the experience on the development side to raise those waters for everyone. Eventing systems that have heavy narrative involvement that all can experience and episodic update schedules under DM purview that everyone gets a taste and the DM can step in for the minutiae.

[Rinzler]

A DM may focus on a specific group for several months while running a particular plot for that group. Your suggestion to have DMs log who they DM for is only going to do one of two things:

1. Make DMs do fewer plots with depth.
2. Subject DMs to even more undeserved claims of favoritism.

These suggestions come off as a desire to be able to point fingers and go "Ha! Corrupt DM! SHAME!", or just some manner of event envy with zero understanding of why events and plot happen in the first place. If that's not what this is, show me how I am misreading this.

You don’t even need to make the log public. Transparency is a good thing, even if it’s internal. Likewise, people are capable of understanding one plot can take 6 months.

I’m not sure why you’re coming across as so hostile to a relatively benign recommendation.

[zhazz]

A DM may focus on a specific group for several months while running a particular plot for that group. Your suggestion to have DMs log who they DM for is only going to do one of two things:

1. Make DMs do fewer plots with depth.
2. Subject DMs to even more undeserved claims of favoritism.

These suggestions come off as a desire to be able to point fingers and go "Ha! Corrupt DM! SHAME!", or just some manner of event envy with zero understanding of why events and plot happen in the first place. If that's not what this is, show me how I am misreading this.

You don’t even need to make the log public. Transparency is a good thing, even if it’s internal. Likewise, people are capable of understanding one plot can take 6 months.

I’m not sure why you’re coming across as so hostile to a relatively benign recommendation.

Probably because nearly every reply to anything he's posted so far in this thread has been dissected, combed, and reflected back at him, as if it's an argument and one side is trying to "win" it. Nearly two pages of this thread is just a back-and-forth of Ghost replying, and someone poking holes in whatever he's saying, and "seemingly" trying to find flaws in it.

Can we get back to suggestions please, rather than a back-and-forth between a handful of people? Want to have that back-and-forth, take it to PMs please, or Discord. The Team Evil/Morally Questionable thread got derailed in the same way as has happened here.

Grumbling old man rant over.
Can we get back to suggestions and ideas please?

[Tanlaus]

End of the day there are different DMing styles, and you can't be cramping on Ghost's style.

Also for the record- since there seems to be a record- my comments in the value of fly by DMing aren’t aimed at anyone specifically. Just pointing out that small interactions are also fun for players. At least from the point of view of a player who has experienced them before.

Not that Ghost or any particular DM needs to do them.

I actually think it’s probably a good way for ADMs to get used to the toolset in a low stakes way. Source: an ADM accidentally PMing me instead of whoever he meant to reply to with, “I’m just following these n00bs around while getting used to the toolset.”

[BloodRiot]

Probably because nearly every reply to anything he's posted so far in this thread has been dissected, combed, and reflected back at him, as if it's an argument and one side is trying to "win" it. Nearly two pages of this thread is just a back-and-forth of Ghost replying, and someone poking holes in whatever he's saying, and "seemingly" trying to find flaws in it.

Excuse me but... this is in fact an argument. One side thinks the server is peachy. the other side disagrees. It is very much an argument. And at least on my part I addressed Ghost on his comments, not his person. And yes I will poke holes at poor arguments that have holes to be poked at. If Ghost had shown me "look, I DMed for House Sshamath, I DMed for these random UDers, I even threw some sort of threat at Soubar that zerros could have handled diplomatically or through violence, either way attempting to cement his position as a defender of soubar." if he had shown me that, I would not have poked holes at anything. Instead he said things along the lines of "I'm not feeling like throwing events because these guys that have nothing to do, just find ways to keep busy that i don't like".

An argument means we disagree on aspects and we are talking and negotiating the points. Whether or not sides are receptive to it is another matter. And argument needs not have ill intent towards the opposing party and I for one do not hold any animosity towards Ghost even though i disagreed fundamentally with how he portrayd myself and others.

Can we get back to suggestions please, rather than a back-and-forth between a handful of people? Want to have that back-and-forth, take it to PMs please, or Discord. The Team Evil/Morally Questionable thread got derailed in the same way as has happened here.

That's what we did. and was equallly dismissed when it was done. Which prompted the back and forth you reference above.

[Hullack]

The topic here is kind of wandering, but I'd like to point out what has so far been one of my favorite types of DM events which is Mimic's pre-announced sign-ups: viewtopic.php?p=951333#p951333

DMing is challenging even when its not done being filtered through a buggy antiquated video game, so my hat goes off to anyone who gives their time to the players in whatever manner they're able to find enjoyment.

As a player with limited availability, however, this one was super approachable for me and I'd selfishly love to see more DMs use it.

[selhan]

To get back on Topic...

I suggest three ideas to restructure the server:
1) Two types of Dms- Administrative DM's and actual DM's.

Sounds good, IF enough even apply for the positions. Admin DMing would give Normal DMs some free up time to do what they signed up for I think. I dont know the world of DM so I am not 100% sure.

2) Players given more freedom to control positions of power-

Im still on the middle of this. Players becoming Dukes and likewise..I think is too much in my own opinion. such should be DM's controlled only far as big heads like Kings, Queens Dukes and Wotnot. A lesser position however I can see as players, advisor etc. Bartending for the Broken Goblet is a smaller scale. My PC works there not owns it, an NPC Owner does that which is DM controlled and the rules set forth by the Dm thus far in the Goblet remains within Lore and Dm ruling which I have 0 problems with. In fact it helps my rp in trying to keep within such lines.

Stuff like Factions..well I for one say, If the faction is not a Lore Faction, and its been inactive for 6 months , it really should be purged from the server and archived. And if someone intends to try and restore said faction , let them have the opportunity by events and rp and gathering of people. Cause lets be honest..if faction members cant even try to show activity for the faction why does it remain and take up space? Faction players should put in some effort even down to the last man. Couple years of crickets only to return years later and suddenly hold claim is not fair to others who could or would have took up the torch and did something progressive with it. A good example is what happened with the Bladestones outpost. They would had less issues had the old dead faction hall they were building on was removed long ago.

3) Current staff, have to loosen up the control and let players take control. If players are to be given positions of power this will be a must. Let the ooc drama happen if it does. Its not going to turn into some wild west pvp hellscape.

Simple way of doing this is merely doing away with the whole PG 13 rating. However it is to my knowledge there is one Minor that I know of that does play on our server. Someone who was a long time Player has a son that plays. With that said, would the rest ignore that fact stated? It be disturbing if you did so. The risk and trouble that can happen would really turn things very ugly. Player side, I am one that has always disliked the many new rules that accumulated on this server over a decade. But I do try to respect it because obviously there was a "Cause and Effect" reasons for each of those rules. Facts... some players are just not responsible players.

It is true , each DM has their own styles. Just like all the players has their own style. No one is the same, if so our world .. would be very scary in my opinion. But players consequence should be a big thing "ALWAYS" and the player should be informed of the consequences. Because its surely isnt fair that someone gets away with something when others would not. Consequences should be across the board period. If a player wants to make an attempt for world dominance hey let them try at it. And if they aint doing it right..they better had already known full well the consequences and should not be given a "Easy Out" when things hit the fan. So no QQing comes later. Same goes for when some Hero thinks to eradicate the world of Evil. But the attempt in itself could very well offer more intense rp opportunities all around. And like the Author of the thread stated, let them make the mess.

My final opinion :
I am not one to vote to allow players to trump Lore / canon. As much as I would love to wake up tomorrow to log in to the world of the Spellplague or redo the Time of Troubles, i feel the need of lore/ canon should be kept in place. Some players are FR savvy, others have 0 clue. The place be a post apocalypse log in if there was no guideline in place. I mean Post apocalypse is fine if it was purposely driven to such. But not by mishaps. I mean really where does it say time in Baldurs post Tot lived happy ever after? If its not set in the books..I believe players/ DM already has some free reign to come up with something.

[Rain]

BGTSCC – Does not meet the requirements of the second two points:
1) Even though this server has great graphics and solid mechanics it is still losing players and DM's. The games mechanics are a big limitation and cannot be helped, but other aspects can be.
2) This server has good intentions but these good intentions are suffocating too many of the players that play here currently or have played and have since left.

3) Players given more freedom to control positions of power- This is what will bring players back to BGTSCC. Make it possible for a player to become a duke or a member of the Conclave. You do not need to make it easy for them, but at least make it possible. You want to set up a Flaming Fist faction- start it. It works for Candlekeep it should work for anything else. If you are a terrible flaming fist guard and people complain- you will get fired or arrested. If you become a Duke of Baldurs Gate then suddenly stop playing – you will be deposed. If the DM's decide you are not doing a satisfactory job they will find an IC reason to try and remove you. Will this hurt your feelings?

In order:

1) The game is only limited to the point of knowledge the team has on the system they know how to create. There are many servers aside from the ones people only pay attention to which is Haven and BG. Alot of the smaller server have systems that currently do alot of what is being asked for in these threads. It’s more of a matter of the BG devs knowing or even -wanting- to apply them here.
2) I actually agree here. I think BGTSCC has many great intentions and even better promise for making some fun and functional situations and challenges for many players. The only problem is currently BG does not do a great job is giving players a good enough reason to use such intentions. For example: Iv’e boasted and reminded people of the Guild Outpost system many many times since it was posted. Yet in the years it’s been posted I have barely seen any guilds use it, if any at all. However I think that is also because your “3)” topic.
3) Alot of people seem to have an idea that a “position of power” ties directly to being a duke of one of the cities and towns in game… or a king… or the flaming fist guard captain. However I would like to digress that by saying a position of power is realistically only a position the Staff allow a person to have that is in their own realms “powerful”.

Take my Undercity plot for example. Say The All-Seeing Eye had won and established an actual undead city underneath BG. That’s a powerful position to have for ANY player that takes those reigns if said was properly established in the server.
If the Ebon Blades were still active and took up the spot way back in the day as the one true militia of Soubar. That would be another powerful position (because they essentially control the guards/laws in Soubar.)
I can give examples all day but those two were the best examples I can speak on only because I have experience RPing with those two guilds.

But all in all, guilds like that rarely if ever are able to get to power statuses like that. I know this because a certain DM told me very specifically that antagonistic/evil groups will never be able to be powerful enough to where they are basically a status of villian that only a DM is allowed to be. Thus why I always bring up the fact that there is a CAP on being evil because that’s what the DM’s have clearly stated.

Which brings me around to the outpost system. If guilds are rarely if ever allowed to grow past just being a small to medium influence on the server then of course they would never have a chance or want to use such systems like the Outpost System because they are likely already struggling enough attempting to gain their small footprint in the area they choose to begin in and will forever be locked to.

Guilds/Factions strive to be like those big elven one that sit hidden in forest that are more then just a big house with your name on it. (You know the ones.)

Faction conflict never really has a need to happen if factions don’t have borders. Borders will never have the illusion of moving if the outpost system is never used. The outpost system will never be used if factions are never given the freedoms to grow into influential parts of the server that are not a lore guild. Factions will never grow to into said system without more freedoms to do so given by the staff. Thus the “Status Quo” at least in terms of -Guilds & Factions- never changes.

[Louvaine]

Outpost system is definitely something one could use to shake up the status quo and gather power. When it came out, we saw a lot of backlash how easily it could be abused, but no one had put the elbow grease to use that system to any meaningful degree. Sure, there's few outposts and I'm happy that they exist, but they are not even close to being results of an abuse.

Could there be more systems (written down or not) that we're missing to achieve more power given to PCs? I can think of guild halls and assets that can be gained for the guilds, but I don't know if those are actually believed to be important by the player base.

Sidenote, maybe in light of recent Insight from DM Ghost it's worth talking about how to lure DM attention. Almarea wrote something about it, but maybe we can expand on it. That would be left up to DMs, though, and I feel like maybe could use a different topic to be more easily found.

[Rain]

Outpost system is definitely something one could use to shake up the status quo and gather power. When it came out, we saw a lot of backlash how easily it could be abused, but no one had put the elbow grease to use that system to any meaningful degree. Sure, there's few outposts and I'm happy that they exist, but they are not even close to being results of an abuse.

Could there be more systems (written down or not) that we're missing to achieve more power given to PCs? I can think of guild halls and assets that can be gained for the guilds, but I don't know if those are actually believed to be important by the player base.

Sidenote, maybe in light of recent Insight from DM Ghost it's worth talking about how to lure DM attention. Almarea wrote something about it, but maybe we can expand on it. That would be left up to DMs, though, and I feel like maybe could use a different topic to be more easily found.

I don't know if "luring" DM attention is the right phrase. It makes it sound like DM's are fish and we as players are luring them into our plots. Which now when I spell out sounds even worst.

Although to speak on your topic on DM attention, I believe it's less about how to gain DM attention and more about having enough DM Timeslots / Availability give life to the server. (Less about planned/requested events, and more about random events that add to the immersion of the world.) Tekill made a good suggestion with the Admin vs In-game DM's. The big problem when it comes to people wanting more things to do is when people thrive for something "unexpected" to happen. Only DM's can do this in-game. Everything else has expected outcomes from boss running at levels 21-30, to sitting at a hangout spot essentially -waiting- for RP to come to you. Most of the time players really just want a DM to give them something to react to that isn't what is pre-determined in the server. This is probably why the UD's are giving tons of praise to something as small as a rat event in the UD. Being deprived of interactions that are out of your control really makes doing things on the server completely bland and makes the world feel lifeless. Especially in the case that they spoke where the UD was apparently given little to nothing to react to for the ToT.

Solutions *Maybe*:
-More DM's could fix this sure... I guess that's an easy solution.
-Less planned event priority could also fix this. (DM's focused on conducting random events or taking control of NPC's to react to player situations IG on the fly.)
-Tekill's Administration DM solution could help maybe.
-More stage-play events. (I've seen DM's do some events where they set up events via: Mystery clues, NPC's, trails, weird visual effects, etc etc, then leave them there for the players to find and figure out and just log off in the cases that the DM is short on time that day.) I specifically remember an old-timer DM from wayyyy back in the day who specialized in doing this specifically.

Just a few opinion-based solutions off the top of my head.

In conclusion, I believe if (some) DM events were smaller, less planned, less railroaded to fish for certain outcomes, and more free-formed for players to utilize their classes strengths and weakness in spurts of unexpected situations. It would thwart the lust for DM attention a bit. Sometimes it's the small things that matter the most.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

The only problem is currently BG does not do a great job is giving players a good enough reason to use such intentions. For example: Iv’e boasted and reminded people of the Guild Outpost system many many times since it was posted. Yet in the years it’s been posted I have barely seen any guilds use it, if any at all. However I think that is also because your “3)” topic.

There's a lot of unfinished content. Outposts gives a direction toward creation but value is in the air. The ORH (despite being treated as an outpost already at BG), has an outpost created with inland presence but offers little tangible value as the bridge it aims to provide an alternate route for is rarely ever compromised and seaborne efforts during such are more likely to occur. Skiffs on the Chionthar can still be hassled with, and traders are unlikely to take that scenic route given current representation does have banditry within observable range of the road today. There's no strategic advantage even if the bridge there was taken, as there are four other routes to circumvent it - leaving really just bragging rights for any siege of the spot. If there's no perceivable value for someone to interact with the outpost then no one's going to bother.

The only in game represented outpost with activity involved that was traded back and forth on is the Bridgefort at Boareskyr which had strategic and symbolistic value.

3) Alot of people seem to have an idea that a “position of power” ties directly to being a duke of one of the cities and towns in game… or a king… or the flaming fist guard captain. However I would like to digress that by saying a position of power is realistically only a position the Staff allow a person to have that is in their own realms “powerful”.

There's only been a handful of people over the years that had a policy first effort with their characters to enact changes from a law's stand point, but I wish more took advantage of exercising battle in the courts. I know one can't expect to have Shar as a first-citizen representation within the city but there are legitimate steps that could've been made in lieu of other itineraries and get qualification for, among power by proxy opportunities.

[Rinzler]

Character biographies and rewards

Plot Hooks
(Add at least two plot hooks that DMs may find interest in picking up. It's not a guarantee that they will be used for potential character plots, but it gives us a choice, and also some idea of what you might find interesting.)

I'm curious to hear from people who have approved biographies and have experienced a DM picking up one of their plot hooks. For the record, I think plot hooks are a great idea.

[sweetlikesplenda]

The only problem is currently BG does not do a great job is giving players a good enough reason to use such intentions. For example: Iv’e boasted and reminded people of the Guild Outpost system many many times since it was posted. Yet in the years it’s been posted I have barely seen any guilds use it, if any at all. However I think that is also because your “3)” topic.

There's a lot of unfinished content. Outposts gives a direction toward creation but value is in the air. The ORH (despite being treated as an outpost already at BG), has an outpost created with inland presence but offers little tangible value as the bridge it aims to provide an alternate route for is rarely ever compromised and seaborne efforts during such are more likely to occur. Skiffs on the Chionthar can still be hassled with, and traders are unlikely to take that scenic route given current representation does have banditry within observable range of the road today. There's no strategic advantage even if the bridge there was taken, as there are four other routes to circumvent it - leaving really just bragging rights for any siege of the spot. If there's no perceivable value for someone to interact with the outpost then no one's going to bother.[quote}

Yes, the Outpost system was used for this. And this was done to react to Server Lore and RP. DMs had been posting in the Rumors thread about the the City's economy going down the tubes due to a lack of merchants wanting to make the trek into the City. Between the previous years Devil and later Demon invasions in the region, bandits and wildlife in the region, and other threats, trade was not coming in to the City as it used to and the people were suffering for the loss. Given many of the Lord's Alliance towns would filter along roads leading towards the Chionthar (And is one of the few roads heading East towards those Lord's Alliance towns that is represented in our server), and given that you to cross the River Chionthar there, you had to literally walk through the actual river to cross, the Guild decided it a good spot to help RP improving the roads for trade. We were informed that Elturel, Scornubel, Berdusk, Asbravyn, and others would use this road to move trade towards the City. Before saying something was ill used or a waste, might be better to actually engage in RP around it and discover if it was or not.

During the construction phases we involved several other guilds and groups to help with materials, construction, planning, etc. DMs also helped by making bandit NPC try to raid the construction site several times to show they were unhappy with the new show of force, as well as gangs of Orcs rallied and attacked us a few times. The Bridge Outpost was also a means to "watch the north" as this was prior to the Zhentarim-Lord's Alliance War, but things were heating up. There was hope that the Outpost might even be used as a staging area for troops when war broke out (Though, things did not go as we thought for the Guild during the War. So, in the end it was not used for that.) The Outpost was also used as a means to improve even more the relationship between the Guild and Lord Dhelt/Hellriders. As groups are and have also been involved in Triel, when the Outpost was built we discussed it with Lord Dhelt, given it's location near to Triel. In the end Elturel agreed to even pay a quarter of the cost of the Outpost and thus has some say in it's use, and even has NPC representation at the Outpost. I even opened up the possibility of a joint Outpost with other guilds, where it could be used as a rest stop for patrolling groups and a means of improving relationships/alliances, and generally be way of sparking RP, but the work towards it seemed to make other groups drop off.

[Rain]

Ok but are there any other instances of the Outpost system being utilized aside from the OHR moving to the bridge? Because if not that proves my point that it’s a system that underutilized which might be because guilds/factions never are able to grow enough to use it. Although yes I understand your point you made about strategic value of outpost locations. Yes that might also be a possibility of it’s lack of use however, I believe it is a small possibility and more due to a lack of available access to the mechanic.

Also I just want to reiterate that the Outpost system is one of many features that I think fall into the “cob web mechanic” category. It’s not my main argument.

[sweetlikesplenda]

Since we are talking about the Outposts at the moment, this is taken from the original post at the time the Outpost system was introduced on the forums:

Guild Outpost: A guild outpost is a small extension of the guild's influence that can be created on maps other than the guildhall. These can include such things as shop branches/trade outposts, military encampments, embassies, temples, and so on. Examples of outposts that already exist in-game include the Thayan Enclave in Sshamath, the Zhentarim Corm Orp camp, the Darius palace theatre and harbour warehouse, and the Rocky Creek caravan stops. Outposts generally do not offer any new resources, but instead are an in-game representation of guild influence in an area.

So, some groups had gained an Outpost or equivalent prior to it being introduced. Since then the Bladestone Foundation has also utilised it I know, with their Docks set up and improvement to the lighthouse near Candlekeep beaches. I think there is an Outpost in the UD? Unless that is just me remembering the Blue Lantern stuff around the Svirfneblin Village?

If anyone is interested in trying to use such systems, like the Outposts, link is below. Also linked is how to gain political influence in a region/faction/settlement. Included also is link to becoming a DM so people can get their ideas and story arcs out into the server.

viewtopic.php?p=928642#p928642 - Outposts

viewtopic.php?p=712749#p712749 - Political/faction gains

viewtopic.php?p=958129#p958129 - DM App