New Players / Player Retention and "getting the word out" about BGTSCC

[Kayle Walker]

Widen the gap between party member levels before they start getting experience penalties (or no experience at all) which feeds into the next idea,

which is to devise some method through which higher level characters can mentor lower level characters


I have turned down dozens of adventures because of the above penalty.

I second this. And while there may be a non-zero chance of people abusing this for powerleveling purposes, its at least a way to prevent this feeling of "batches" or "generations" of characters that stick together just because they were made around similar times. Plus, I assume this change won't extend to the exp penalty for tackling higher CR mobs, so that means its only going to be higher level characters going down to help lowbies - it fits perfectly with the RP idea of mentoring.

[DaloLorn]

A couple of challenges that I've read so far:

• Lack of coding devs

IMO, a bigger issue is a lack of initiative from the one dev we do have. Virtually anything of significance I do anymore is done after obtaining express permission from Ghost and/or Rhifox.

On the other hand, it is true that having more devs/QC pitching in might reduce my reliance on admin approval a little, as long as we were able to agree on a topic overwhelmingly enough to drive away my anxieties. And it's definitely true that both of those staff groups are - de-facto, if not strictly de-jure - defunct at this time. So... this is more of a nitpick than an active disagreement, I guess.

Apart from that, the primary thing is that we need people who are willing and able to carry some of these things. I'd love to enable people trying to bring positive changes, and will gladly work with anyone trying to make them.

It might not hurt to have an application form of some kind for devs. We've got a builder form, and I think we might maybe have a QC form (but if we don't, we should have one of those too!), but no dev form. That can't be helping us bring people on, IMO.

(For the record: Any applicant able or even just willing to work with the toolset gets an extra thumbs up from me. Jokes aside, basically all the active toolset expertise we've got right now is concentrated in the builder team, which has been a bit of a constraining element at times.)

Widen the gap between party member levels before they start getting experience penalties (or no experience at all) which feeds into the next idea,

which is to devise some method through which higher level characters can mentor lower level characters


I have turned down dozens of adventures because of the above penalty.

We've talked about this several times just in the few years I've been on staff, but we never go and do anything about it! It's criminal, I tell ya. (Most recently, it was one of the changes in Honk's XP proposal, the only practical effect of which was the RP XP bump. I'm hoping to help Honk revisit that thread when he gets back from vacation this week...)

[blazerules]

Honestly the argument against widened exp gap makes sense but feels like everyone being punished for the actions of the few.

Not that it stops me. I'll just "join" a party and hit things to low HP so they can beat it up to death as I tank it in parry mode. It's just extra steps.

[Avanos]

A couple of challenges that I've read so far:

• Lack of coding devs

IMO, a bigger issue is a lack of initiative from the one dev we do have. Virtually anything of significance I do anymore is done after obtaining express permission from Ghost and/or Rhifox.

On the other hand, it is true that having more devs/QC pitching in might reduce my reliance on admin approval a little, as long as we were able to agree on a topic overwhelmingly enough to drive away my anxieties. And it's definitely true that both of those staff groups are - de-facto, if not strictly de-jure - defunct at this time. So... this is more of a nitpick than an active disagreement, I guess.

Apart from that, the primary thing is that we need people who are willing and able to carry some of these things. I'd love to enable people trying to bring positive changes, and will gladly work with anyone trying to make them.

It might not hurt to have an application form of some kind for devs. We've got a builder form, and I think we might maybe have a QC form (but if we don't, we should have one of those too!), but no dev form. That can't be helping us bring people on, IMO.

(For the record: Any applicant able or even just willing to work with the toolset gets an extra thumbs up from me. Jokes aside, basically all the active toolset expertise we've got right now is concentrated in the builder team, which has been a bit of a constraining element at times.)

Widen the gap between party member levels before they start getting experience penalties (or no experience at all) which feeds into the next idea,

which is to devise some method through which higher level characters can mentor lower level characters


I have turned down dozens of adventures because of the above penalty.

We've talked about this several times just in the few years I've been on staff, but we never go and do anything about it! It's criminal, I tell ya. (Most recently, it was one of the changes in Honk's XP proposal, the only practical effect of which was the RP XP bump. I'm hoping to help Honk revisit that thread when he gets back from vacation this week...)

Are the devs limited in expressing their creativity and imagination?

Restricting creativity to the exclusive approval of just one or two individuals doesn't seem advantageous for the server.

If this happens on the dev side.. does it happen on the DM side?

[DaloLorn]

Are the devs limited in expressing their creativity and imagination?

Restricting creativity to the exclusive approval of just one or two individuals doesn't seem advantageous for the server.

If this happens on the dev side.. does it happen on the DM side?

... Yes, but not in the way you might be implying.

You know how there's rules (implicit or explicit; I can't remember anymore, but you've spent enough time in UD-associated Discords to hear me raise them as a concern about elevating a UDer to DM for the UD) intended to prevent favoritism by a DM towards a group of players? It's not a DM-only thing. And it is doubly not a DM-only thing when you periodically develop the urge to send in a DM application: If memory serves, each of my many rejections has cited some variant of "you are a self-serving dev" as a factor in the final decision, and it was also one of the more memorable points nearly stymying my return to the dev team before the ToT. In all likelihood, it's not even wrong, I'm just a lot more generous than they are in assessing whether my self-serving proposals will be a net benefit to the rest of the server.

Add to this the fact that a lot of my ideas are in some way controversial (though it's been helpful lately to use the public Discord as a sounding board before posting a new proposal, and in fact I think basically all of my proposals in the past few months were spawned in their entirety by Discord conversations), and you might see why I tend not to achieve a whole lot unless it's requested or overwhelmingly approved by other staff members. This can work relatively smoothly with a larger team, as there's no bottleneck on approvals: You post a proposal, you hopefully refine it to a point where all responders agree with it, and you provide a generous amount of time for non-responders to chime in. (And boy, did you need to be generous with some people! ) The trouble is, we're... decidedly not there anymore. The only non-admins I can expect feedback from are the DMs, and since Ink, Soulcatcher, and Goat retired, there hasn't been a lot of DMs making a point of reading most of my mountainous proposal threads. Even the really important stuff like the loot revamp we're cooking up doesn't get a lot of attention. (Which is not unsurprising, considering it's on top of the mountains of text they're already sifting through as part of their DM responsibilities... but there's hardly anyone else left to discuss design and balance with, and the team has always had and exerted the right to request changes or cancellations to a dev project on lore grounds.)

TL;DR: It's not a deliberate effort to stifle dev creativity, so much as an emergent combination of dev anxiety fueled/amplified by historical events, a dash of volunteer bureaucracy (the worst kind of bureaucracy - you can't set deadlines or otherwise limit the damage dealt by the red tape! ), and the near-collapse of all the coping mechanisms used to limit the aforementioned anxiety. Other devs' mileage may vary.



As to your question about the DM team: I don't remember any such issues from my DMing era, but you are expected to avoid breaking things. I remember being yelled at (figuratively, and somewhat hyperbolically!) for this one event at Boareskyr, during the devil war, because... well, to put it simply, I used my monsters more like the Neverwinter MMO and less like a 3.5e DM, culminating in a bossfight with a pit fiend (or two, I can't remember). And I had the Fist send reinforcements, because I didn't realize the Fist's presence didn't extend that far upstream. As long as you can keep things lore-appropriate, avoid favoritism, and all that other "good conduct" stuff... the sky's your limit. Sometimes literally, as Mimic can attest to...

[Ravial]

Hey, if you need someone to read the wall of texts you like to produce, I can still do it

[blazerules]

"you are a self-serving dev"

I find this kinda funny because one of the most successful community driven game projects on the code side that I know to ever exist, Space Station 13, is purely and entirely driven by self-serving devs. Every single feature the game has exists because a dude went "yeah I want this poopy" and coded it.

Granted they also have a metric ton more devs since literally anyone can submit a pull request. Whether or not the head Dev will approve it is a different matter entirely. Even I coded stuff in (Like darth maul esque light sabres )

I'm not sure if anything can be learned from a coding project like that that is literally a game developed by a community from scratch.

[Gnomocratic]

I second what you say blaze, in these types of community-driven projects, the confluence of self-serving devs is basically a force for general good and one of the main drivers of actual effort.

Dalo, the experience you're describing is that of a lack of leadership, the absence of a provider of certainty, that's what someone with a vision for the future of the project provides, certainty, someone to tell you "do it" and "go ahead", to do this well of course requires technical know-how and the ability to foresee consequences to changes, this is why leadership has to be in development for a lot of the more important things.

A lot of the replies really made the case for my earlier post.

General consensus is another form of certainty but a lot of times it's very expensive or requires a lot of time to acquire, or just doesn't actually exist when you have opposing views between relevant contributors.

[Titania_1]

- Make this place, forum and game, more new-user friendly. In its current state, it is not. It's intimidating to new players.

- Widen the level-exp penalty to allow more experienced players to be able to guide new players in an active and productive way.

- Every concern should be listened to and reflected upon. An opportunity for improvement, a compromise, or a lesson can be found in almost every concern brought up by a player. Every player lost because they didn't feel listened to is one less player in the game, and that builds up over time.

- Get someone in charge of media to start putting this server's name out there on the major platforms.

- Get more DM's willing to do smaller, non-campaign events. Bring areas of the server to life with simple NPC interaction, and especially, do fun and inclusive things for the lower level players, having some spontaneous and planned events strictly reserved for lower level players.

- Offer incentives to join the dev team. A 100% RCR for X amount of work done, or a level 20 character, an item, etc.

Don't come at me for the suggestions. Just throwing some ideas out there.

[athornforyourheart]

- Make this place, forum and game, more new-user friendly. In its current state, it is not. It's intimidating to new players.

- Widen the level-exp penalty to allow more experienced players to be able to guide new players in an active and productive way.

- Every concern should be listened to and reflected upon. An opportunity for improvement, a compromise, or a lesson can be found in almost every concern brought up by a player. Every player lost because they didn't feel listened to is one less player in the game, and that builds up over time.

- Get someone in charge of media to start putting this server's name out there on the major platforms.

- Get more DM's willing to do smaller, non-campaign events. Bring areas of the server to life with simple NPC interaction, and especially, do fun and inclusive things for the lower level players, having some spontaneous and planned events strictly reserved for lower level players.

- Offer incentives to join the dev team. A 100% RCR for X amount of work done, or a level 20 character, an item, etc.

Don't come at me for the suggestions. Just throwing some ideas out there.

Not a forum user/player much anymore, but +1 this.

[metaquad4]

- Make this place, forum and game, more new-user friendly. In its current state, it is not. It's intimidating to new players.

- Widen the level-exp penalty to allow more experienced players to be able to guide new players in an active and productive way.

- Every concern should be listened to and reflected upon. An opportunity for improvement, a compromise, or a lesson can be found in almost every concern brought up by a player. Every player lost because they didn't feel listened to is one less player in the game, and that builds up over time.

- Get someone in charge of media to start putting this server's name out there on the major platforms.

- Get more DM's willing to do smaller, non-campaign events. Bring areas of the server to life with simple NPC interaction, and especially, do fun and inclusive things for the lower level players, having some spontaneous and planned events strictly reserved for lower level players.

- Offer incentives to join the dev team. A 100% RCR for X amount of work done, or a level 20 character, an item, etc.

Don't come at me for the suggestions. Just throwing some ideas out there.

Not a player anymore, but I'd generally agree these are good sentiments. Though I would note:
1a) Staff already gets rewards. Though more for the time invested wouldn't hurt imo. It'd be very cool if they could work with the general public on bounties (they might already, not sure). Design X and you get Y for the trouble.
1b) The lack of devs is an nwn2-wide thing. I'm not convinced it is because people don't want to do work. It is because there is a lack of people who physically CAN do the work. It takes knowledge and technical expertise. I have my doubts we'll see another Kaedrin, Rasael, or ComeAndSee again.

2) I've tried advertising outside myself. There are a lot of people who despise BGTSCC for various reasons, and there are people who watch social media for mentions of it. I suspect it will be an upwards PR battle. As soon as you get into a battle with that, you've already lost. You'll need someone willing (and talented enough - say the wrong things and you'll end up in a sticky situation especially on public fourms who have exterior mods watching them) to combat that.

3) The population doesn't really exist anymore for the sheer scale, but this server thrived on its mega-events - the long server-wide year-long campaigns. If BG wants to be a DM-driven server, IMO it needs to go all in and make some actual epic campaigns again. That seems to have started with the Amn stuff, so hopefully that continues.

4) The server doesn't have many people to lose, to be honest. Some of the current admin is very conservative and focused on status quo, but honestly it needs to branch out and experiment and try new things. Because if you keep the status quo, you might as well just resign yourselves at this point. I'd highly suggest trying things like quick/trivial levelling, making general PvE less of a hassle, embracing the fact that level 30 is generally needed to partake in most server events (you are lying to yourselves if you say it isn't, frankly - and if you don't believe me, make a level 1 wizard, join Tyrellius, and see how much fun you have in the events when you die to combat non-stop and roll such insignificant rolls compared to your peers that any information you gain is overshadowed by everyone else). Hell, I'd legit start everyone at 30. Leveling on BGTSCC is, at best, going through the motions. There is no dignity in the experience, only a waste of any player's time. Level 30 truly is "where the real game starts" on BGTSCC.

But yeah. Try different things, see what sticks, and communicate with the players constantly to see what they like. BGTSCC, with its current pop, is as close to death as it can get without being dead. You have no-where to go but up. So give something new a go and see what happens.

[DaloLorn]

embracing the fact that level 30 is generally needed to partake in most server events (you are lying to yourselves if you say it isn't, frankly - and if you don't believe me, make a level 1 wizard, join Tyrellius, and see how much fun you have in the events when you die to combat non-stop and roll such insignificant rolls compared to your peers that any information you gain is overshadowed by everyone else).

Zeila and a half-dozen other low-to-mid-teens (most of them played by new or returning players, incidentally) got to break up a goblin cult all by themselves, but I guess since it's not a metaplot event, you wouldn't care about it.

So let's have a metaplot example: Zeikari's character, Tathra, has been stuck at 18 for a while now due to a progression bug that can't be fixed without a full patch, but he still joined the siege of Tyrelius' tower last Sunday. The outcome? Not only did his presence matter, but he came away with a plot-critical task to complete in one of the myriad smaller follow-up events people have been scheduling with Mimic before the next public event in April.

Hell, I'd legit start everyone at 30. Leveling on BGTSCC is, at best, going through the motions. There is no dignity in the experience, only a waste of any player's time. Level 30 truly is "where the real game starts" on BGTSCC.

I'll put it this way: If the real game started at 30, then I would have quit the server ages ago. With my altoholism, having 30s is a relatively recent development for me, and they're usually the least involved in things because until the recent RP XP change, leveling to 30 meant you were spending a large proportion of your time repeating the same dungeons over and over again, which usually meant you were a drow with nothing better to do. Literally every character I've closed out has left the server before they were 30, and their stories are no less complete or satisfying for it. (Though I do wish I got to see them at the height of their power, first.)

There's no dignity in playing an XP-addicted hamster; in that, you are correct. But circle-grinding was never the intended play, it was just an inevitable consequence of our PvE design and the absence of effective mechanisms by which it could be prevented. To some extent, it was even a consequence of other people doing it: How many distinct characters of yours blitzed right past Aela again? Plenty more than if I'd still felt it necessary to keep up with them, and still had the stamina to make the attempt. (On that front, I was greatly helped by your unfailing ability to roll up characters she wanted to have nothing to do with... like the Warlock Horde.)

[krighaur]

This thread is not about who is doing wrong versus who is doing right, it's about what players think could be done to ameliorate the server attraction.

The things which seem to provoque reactions are about immersion in the server community and/or plot. It's true that some new (or returning) player are able to do that easily. Some other have difficulties. Nobody has all the cards in hands and know why it works for some, and don't work for others. It's possible that you didn't have the problem someone is explaining. Does it means he/she is an idiot ? I don't think so.

So, the best way to know, is to listen, and listen not only those who post something we like !

[Steve]

A personal thank you to everyone keeping this particular topic/thread on track.

It is without a doubt that, by the many suggestions given here in this thread—and the many in the past—that BGTSCC gains from a constant development, some attempt at progress "in a good direction." It is really my hope that whatever is discussed in this thread can inspire and support those of the BGTSCC community—Staff AND Players!—to contribute to a positive effort.

IMHO, what makes BGTSCC a quality experience is the underlying and fundamental story building and role-play aspect. I think we can all agree that at some point, we've all experienced the love-hate relationship with the NWN2 engine, the general mechanics, the "it's black boxed..." reality to improving and customizing the game experience. Some things we just don't have control over or the possibility to improve in any way meaningful or beneficial to the gameplay experience from the design/mechanical perspective. But some do try! And they deserve credit.

That said, my point here is, in an indirect way to respond to some of the suggestions given, is that what every member of the community does have "control" over—at least on a personal level—is that exact story building and role-play aspect. THAT can really be a massive, welcome and NEEDED contribution.

And I believe it is those two aspects that have the greatest allure for new players, returning players, etc. Again, imho, it is the basis in which the Server needs to be growing, developed, managed, etc. Thinking, promoting, posting, advertising this aspect as much as possible. Yes, the mechanical improvements and additions are also often great and welcome things, such as the recent Appearance changer, or even the new range of Combat Actions. These things DO add to the RP possibility.

But if one wants to entice more players, with the knowledge of the game itself and its age plus graphics when compared to more modern games, really, what even makes BGTSCC a playable experience is that the role-play in the world of the Forgotten Realms, is possible.

So I very much appreciate the effort to uphold that "world," and try to respect it. Because it is an framework in a fantasy story that we gain a RL experience with other real people, in real time. That might just mean the BGTSCC Server has to adhere to certain Canon aspects, or, cannot support certain role-play. I know that is a real downer for some players—and DMs...—that would wish for a more open sandbox. It is possible to make a statement to actually diverge Canon-wise from the FR Timeline, if the Admins wished. Heck, BGTSCC already has in many ways. But it's a fine line to walk.

I'm only writing this because I think there are ways we can change/support the IG experience, and there are ways we can change/support the OOC experience of BGTSCC. They are not always the same ways!!

With Zanniej's great summary a pages back, of possibilities to look into for changes and issues to address, maybe it is time for asking one's self: which of any of these can I take up, myself? Can I do some promo? Can I code? Can I develop/build? Can I DM? Can I role-play a support Character for newbies?

Can I state this publicly and stand behind it with commitment? Simply put, BGTSCC needs help from within the existing community—Staff and players—to take on some added role, IG and OOC, to grow the Server. It can't do it alone.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

It all boils down to lack of leadership, it's a pretty easy solution, change server ownership.
Before letting it die might as well give it to someone that wants to do something with it and has the skillset to see it through.
I don't mean me, but like, AoS would probably take that offer faster than you can say "ded"
Of course then you have to contend with all the people arm chairing their refusals because of a decade of personal dramas but at the end of the day, are they doing anything about it?

I'd refuse. Ownership/Leadership of communities is a far different skillset than it is to cobble code and features, the former requiring skills I don't adequately possess - most here don't. Co-opting some of the server's largest factions is a bit different; I see the direction the server should go, but the hurdles put up is a community created problem on every level. The lacking crafting system, the community's most requested mechanical feature, still hasn't managed to see the light of day and the steps to get there are frequently abandoned.

It's a community problem, not a game problem.

Strong agreement.

AoS is working on a different thing entirely anyways, let them cook.

It should open the doors quite a bit more on the longevity options, but it'll require practically all of my waking hours to maintain.

I'm not sure if anything can be learned from a coding project like that that is literally a game developed by a community from scratch.

Garrysmod has a spot here that I aim to emulate, in particular the ability to take uploaded community modifications from the Steam Workshop or something similar, and the game servers can use it as encapsulated drop-ins with a few clicks. This would let players who create some feature as a plugin for their server that has nothing to do with BGTSCC create a modification that a BGTSCC like server might find useful and shore up some of the development / feature times involved. Testing it live/modifying it live, make duplicates from and resubmit, etc.