Re: The Raid of Sunriver Bend

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DaloLorn
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Re: The Raid of Sunriver Bend

Unread post by DaloLorn »

It's all very well for us to be sharing comments between ourselves in the raider chat, but I feel like some of this deserves to be said where Ghost can actually see it. Some of it went great, well in excess of the expectations he tried to set; some of it was pretty bad (though almost exclusively limited to the preparatory offscreen stage, for what that might be worth); some of it got a little weird, but not in any seriously harmful capacity.

The Good
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  • It actually happened! And what a turnout! Between increasingly demoralized players and IRL obstructions, I expected to go to battle with less than half of the people who have historically attended the planning meetings, if we even managed to force ourselves to keep going... instead we got all of them (minus a couple of Shea's alts who never really joined in the first place), and a few more on top!
  • Plot hook, plot hook, plot hook! That artifact couldn't have gone to a more deserving player... he's already scheming with the rest of the gang to figure out what heinous acts he might use it for. :twisted:
  • Although strictly redundant for reasons I mentioned at the time, the fall token was a nice touch.
  • After terrifying us on two separate occasions (so many of us feared we might be buried in über-mobs until we either died or ran away, and when you then gave details on the permastrike risk the night of the event, we thought it was going to be less a risk and more a certainty), it was nice to see the village guards really were what the reconnaissance said they were.
  • Though strictly an accidental improvisation on my part, the threat of permastrikes and the relative abundance of ranged combatants drove me to play slightly more in line with my character's morals (already stretched to their limits just to give me an excuse to fill out the roster), though even she isn't sure if it was morality or fear that made her a de-facto noncombatant. :lol:
TL;DR: Blew us away in a lot of ways, and left surprisingly many avenues to keep moving from here. The good parts were great!
The Bad
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  • I'm not gonna lie, I'm still miffed about the second round of scouting not amounting to anything. IMO it would not have been difficult to appease us with a simple "your findings tell you X (e.g. Fist patrols come by every now and then)" or "your findings allow you to do Y (e.g. timing the attack to when the nearest Fist patrol would be as far away as possible)" instead of saying it'll be done during the event; this was made more egregious by the fact that there actually wasn't any opportunity to learn some of the things we were trying to learn (like the ideal timing for the attack, or how likely we were to be interrupted by nearby reinforcements).

    This was a particularly dire issue in light of the fact that it nearly drove us to scrap the raid; we persevered mostly only in a bid to save face, lest our decision be used as an argument to discourage DMs from running UD events in the future. It turned out okay in the end, but it was too close for comfort!
  • On a similar note, while we were able to ICly play it off as Malodia's whimsy (god knows she's not a very good planner, nor particularly capable of sticking to her own plans), we did feel that we were being railroaded away from our initial scheme of caravan raids to a village assault. In tandem with the abovementioned scouting issue; a historical fear among the more veteran raiders that the DMs hate the UD (though hopefully that fear will have been dampened a little by the final outcome); and a long-standing DM tradition of throwing out hordes of beefed-up mobs everywhere, we got the impression that not only were we being railroaded, but the ideal and intended outcome was for us to be TPKed by a Fist regiment and hopefully choose unprompted to overlook the distinction between a permastrike and strict permadeath on the grounds that our return to life would have been implausible. (As I certainly would have done, unless and until player or NPC actions explicitly brought me back!)
TL;DR: Even though a lot of our fears proved unfounded, there was a disturbing feeling that, at best, we were being thrown a bone by an otherwise reluctant DM. And at worst, being maneuvered into a fiasco of such proportions that we would never dare ask for another event. As a result, I suspect that neither side enjoyed this as much as they could have, and just went along with it for OOC politics. :cry: Would it be too dramatic to say the worst parts were pretty lousy?
The Ugly
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  • As is rapidly becoming typical for our ramshackle crew (with the Soubar rumor thread showcasing some of the most glaring examples), we goofed up big-time when it came to any stealth or subtlety. :roll: But the initial failure was largely mechanical - we suspect an expiring invisibility potion - and it occurs to me that there was a way to at least uphold the RP side of our camouflage. IIRC from my time with the DM client, just as there's a button to turn all NPCs on a map hostile, there is one to turn all NPCs friendly. Given that the invisibility spells were just a final layer of icing on top of our other stealth mechanisms, this might have been appropriate... and it would have allowed us to go on with our initial plan instead of just going "screw the plan" and starting the battle early.
  • That alignment bump. I didn't even shoot the armed guards! :cry: (It's fine though; I've already got some ideas on how to bring my sheet back in line with my characterization in future installments... or maybe die trying. One of those two. :think:)
  • Was an unconditional permastrike for grievous injury really necessary? It rendered Bloodstaunch, Stabilize, and Revivify virtually irrelevant, as even if the wounded/killed PCs were successfully rescued (as opposed to being left behind in a hasty retreat, or otherwise captured by the defenders), the permastrike would remain. It probably only made us more eager to extract every mechanical advantage possible (e.g. my staying invisible lest I get shot into the Fugue by an enemy archer, super-underoptimized pre-30 that I was), and while I was able to ICly justify my reactions (... at the cost of making the alignment bump seem a little weird...), we really don't need to be herded towards more powerbuilds.
TL;DR: There were a few things that probably could have been done better, and obvious ways they can be improved in future. It happens! That's what feedback is for!
Overall, I'm looking forward to seeing how things go from here, whether with DMs or without them. (There's certainly a fair few opportunities for PCs to effectively seek revenge, owing to our constant blunders in Soubar...)
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Re: The Raid of Sunriver Bend

Unread post by selhan »

((Im not a UD player, but I will say, its nice to see such an event happen. It was needed in my PoV.

I hope one of those drows tells the tale to Sel so I can make a post on it, I do hope you guys got some screen shots tho!

As for the Good, Bad, and Ugly - I think I would simply had appreciated such an event being conducted. There was a lot of minds highly doubting it would even happen. The fact that it did shows there's a chance for some change in the future. IDK how the event went cause ofc I wasnt there. But I know that particular DM wanted to see players Rping and not conducting some Call of Duty Battle Royal fest. Just happy to hear it did happen , its been way too long since such an Event for UD took place.

Every DM does things differently. Some lean to dropping hints, others not so much. Some want people to think deeper. All want the events to go smoothly. I myself would have wanted to see more RP posts out of that event with some nice concept art and screenies but thats just me. Over all Im happy it happened, it was long overdue.
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Re: The Raid of Sunriver Bend

Unread post by DaloLorn »

selhan wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 6:15 amIm not a UD player, but I will say, its nice to see such an event happen. It was needed in my PoV.
Definitely needed. I wasn't trying to be particularly dramatic when I described it to people (mostly in the UD and Bregan Discords) as "the UD's last gasp": If this had gone belly up, if the resulting event was anywhere as bad as we were afraid of? That'd probably have been it for a good chunk of the participants, and we've already hemorrhaged so many veterans that another exodus would have been terminal.

Putting things into perspective... The raiding channel in the UD Discord has 13 members. One is indefinitely out of play due to medical issues. One has retired from BG and barely even communicates anymore. And one is a DM we're never sure actually reads that chat (though that may be for the best :lol:). Of the remaining 10 people, we narrowly managed to herd everyone into Gloura's in time to be ported out to Sunriver, and I expected that half of them were at risk of quitting the server. Actual guilds are even worse off: Bregan is a gutted husk of its former self, in both player count and player morale; Selmiyeritar is down to two people on account of the abovementioned medical issues taking out the third reliable member (we technically have close to half a dozen more on the books, but I haven't seen or heard from them since before the end of 2023); and it only goes downhill from there.

But it worked out in the end, and IMO it came away better than even our grandest hopes. (Plot hook!)
I hope one of those drows tells the tale to Sel so I can make a post on it, I do hope you guys got some screen shots tho!

(...)

I myself would have wanted to see more RP posts out of that event with some nice concept art and screenies but thats just me.
I mean... I've never been a concept-and-screenies person (I hardly ever think to take screenshots on purpose), but it feels safe to say I've done my part regarding the rumormongering. :lol:
As for the Good, Bad, and Ugly - I think I would simply had appreciated such an event being conducted. There was a lot of minds highly doubting it would even happen. The fact that it did shows there's a chance for some change in the future. IDK how the event went cause ofc I wasnt there. But I know that particular DM wanted to see players Rping and not conducting some Call of Duty Battle Royal fest. Just happy to hear it did happen , its been way too long since such an Event for UD took place.

Every DM does things differently. Some lean to dropping hints, others not so much. Some want people to think deeper. All want the events to go smoothly. (...) Over all Im happy it happened, it was long overdue.
I mean... this might speak more about my standards than the actual event, but if not for the stuff outlined under "The Bad", I'd have comfortably given it an 8 or a 9. (In reference to my Discord remark about giving it 7/10.) Ghost may say he only had a short amount of time to set it up, but even as rushed as it may have been, it wasn't nearly the worst DM event I'd been in... but with all that was at stake, I feel I'd have done us all a disservice by completely overlooking the ways in which it almost blew up in everyone's faces. And at the same time, it bore mentioning that it didn't, and that if we take this as a representative example of drow-DM relations in the post-ToT era, then the future doesn't look too bleak.
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Re: The Raid of Sunriver Bend

Unread post by DM Honk »

Hello there,

I just read through this thread.

I have a few things to say, keeping in mind that I am an external observer. I was not at the event, on either side (DM or player).

Feedback is fine, I wish there were more posts with feedback. I have to ask you though, to keep the feedback deprived of assumptions.

This is an example:
being maneuvered into a fiasco of such proportions that we would never dare ask for another event
I will speak for the team, given what my role is, and I can tell you with a determined mind that none of us wish to purposely make players unsatisfied. Unhappy players are not good for us DMs too, I am sorry that you had that impression but I can guarantee that was not the intent.

From now on I would appreciate if feedback could be sent to the HDMs and Admins directly, and please do try to avoid those assumptions, they only make the discussion bitter. No one here wishes for anybody to have a bad experience.

I would also be inclined to move the discussion elsewhere, since you started this thread, Dalo, I am asking if that's reasonable.

Thank you.
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Re: The Raid of Sunriver Bend

Unread post by DaloLorn »

DM Honk wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 10:14 amFeedback is fine, I wish there were more posts with feedback. I have to ask you though, to keep the feedback deprived of assumptions.
It was an assumption in the months leading up to the event (as mentioned, mostly by the jaded veterans, though I'll admit I was getting pretty shaken myself by the time we'd agreed on a date). I'd be surprised if anyone held the same view after the event had concluded... even if there was some grumbling about how quickly someone who shall not be named put out the fires and undead. I think they might've thought Ghost had pulled that one out of his ass, which only goes to show the operation was executed with the requisite sneakiness! :lol:

IMO, the problem really stems from how troubled UD interactions have been with the DM team before: I'd hardly expect most surface players to hold these kinds of fears in this day and age, which only contributed to the importance (in my eyes) of both sides leaving good impressions on the other.
I would also be inclined to move the discussion elsewhere, since you started this thread, Dalo, I am asking if that's reasonable.
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Re: The Raid of Sunriver Bend

Unread post by Tekill »

Hi!
Neat thread.
Yeah the raid went better than expected in some ways and was a disappointment in others. If this were a random event that the dm set up for us I would be grateful I I happened to be able to be a part of it. So that is the attitude I will take here.

I forgot to thanK DM Ghost for the event - it was over super fast and then I crashed. Thanks for the event DM Ghost!
we goofed up big-time when it came to any stealth or subtlety. :roll: But the initial failure was largely mechanical - we suspect an expiring invisibility potion
The part where we were exposed to already hostile farmers was really none of our faults. Most of us had invis on top of all that, most of us had other concealments in place. Since the mobs were already hostile we simply triggered their attack. No checks, instantly caught. The DM did warn us that they were hostile and we did rush right in. So I am cool with the outcome, but I am not going to let any of us take any responsibility as goofing up our stealth when it was a mechanical issue.

Anyways I can nit pick ooc about all the details, but that would be foolish. I will keep it all in character, that will be more fun.

We are quite happy to RP with any other faction with respect to the rumor posts put up. Feel free to reach out to me OOC if you have any questions about how to approach us. Let me know any half baked ideas you might have with respect to any RP ideas you have or how you want to engage us IC in any way, if your not already sure how to do it.
Be this as friend or foe.

Regarding conflict and PvP. We have some decent experienced pvp'ers in our group and some less experienced ones. We are up for just about anything, but the goal is to try to make RP the priority. For the purpose of having fun, and trying to prove this can actually work, we would like to RP first before clicking the hostile buttons. Lets build up a story and plot line before breaking out into a pointless death match if it can be helped. Naturally as things tend to often turn out, if melodrama ensues due to things going sideways please keep in mind that out goal generally is to try to do things in good faith with good intentions and we are not OOC trying to be malicious.
We are only faking being evil.

We did this on a whim but it has been fun so far. Regardless as to whatever happens at this point, it was already a success. I am hoping though that this plot line has only just really begun.

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Re: The Raid of Sunriver Bend

Unread post by DaloLorn »

Tekill wrote: Mon Apr 08, 2024 12:53 pmI forgot to thanK DM Ghost for the event - it was over super fast and then I crashed. Thanks for the event DM Ghost!
Oh yeah, crashing right after the fight was rotten timing.
The part where we were exposed to already hostile farmers was really none of our faults. Most of us had invis on top of all that, most of us had other concealments in place. Since the mobs were already hostile we simply triggered their attack. No checks, instantly caught. The DM did warn us that they were hostile and we did rush right in. So I am cool with the outcome, but I am not going to let any of us take any responsibility as goofing up our stealth when it was a mechanical issue.
Ghost didn't ICly acknowledge the attack until we counterattacked, which was, IIRC, right around the time that Koth finally tried reapplying invisibility. If you read on, I did point out there was a way he could have prevented the incident without much fuss... but it didn't end up mattering much, and we still screwed up our end of it, like literally every other stealth mission we've done since the start of this. :P
Be this as friend or foe.
One drow's foe may yet be another halfblood's friend... :think:
We are only faking being evil.
I dunno, that brainstorming about the artifact kicked off pretty quickly! :lol:
We did this on a whim but it has been fun so far. Regardless as to whatever happens at this point, it was already a success. I am hoping though that this plot line has only just really begun.
The sequel may not be under Ghost's supervision, but can there really be any doubt that there will be a sequel? Higher difficulty, though, and higher stakes: Whoever wins, the lives of the raiders are about to get complicated...
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