Teifling Bonus

[Louvaine]

Totally valid points!

[Obvious_Illusion]

Aasimar having no negatives is what kills playing human.

Aasimar shine on divine classes (FvS, cleric, etc) but losing out on the extra skill bonus and extra feat doesn't necessary make them better than humans imo, especially on those divine classes which are 2+ Int skill classes, where the net extra 33 skill points from being human feels very useful. Of course, an Aasimar can pump into int too to make up for that loss, which might be easy to do given the +2 wis/+2 cha. But overall, unless you're going for an EDM-type build, I don't think Aasimar are necessarily superior than what a human can do in most builds.

One of the downsides of Aasimar being commonly chosen purely for the stat bonuses is there's sometimes not as much creative attention paid to playing an aasimar. Re: Races of Faerun, they struggle to fit in with human society, don't often understand their own heritage particularly well, and while they're innately drawn towards Paladin/LG/divine ideals, they tend to often be very alone and aloof out of self-preservation due to social misunderstanding (and indeed, they tend to face prejudice in ways that differ to tieflings). Consequently, some end up with a very dark heart. While others might not recognise someone as an Aasimar immediately, it is said that they will have one distinguishing feature that marks them as unusual (golden eyes, silver hair, emerald skin, shoulder feathers, feathers in hair, pearly opalescent eyes, powerful ringing voice, brilliant topaz eyes, silvery or golden skin, iridescent scales in small patches).
Although some people integrate some of the aforementioned aspects into their RP, in other cases Aasimar seems to be played as human-lite.

The same thing happens with tieflings, of course, and the number of tieflings on the server does mean that they're not treated as exotically as canon lore. But that appears to be an enduring topic.

Regardless, I think the server is much more fun when people lean into races with a curiosity of what it's like to play that race in the rich world of Faerun, rather than worrying about numbers. I guess the numbers matter a bit if the sole priority is solo epic grinding, but in groups I don't find the small distinctions in numbers matter so much.

[artemitavik]

Ultimately it comes down to aesthetic preference, though for a lot of players I've seen, the number crunching is super important.

Another thing that pulls from human, elves, dwarves, etc is the ECL isn't really fashioned into anything. Sure, you get some xp slower so you might take a little bit longer to hit level 30, but other than a week or two of xp gain, there's really no incentive to NOT play an ECL race. Everyone gets to level 30, so that ECL (effective character level) by rules is essentially a level 31 character, or level 32, etc by the handbook. So, really, free abilities and mechanics? Why not take them?

I'm not championing any change or not-change on that, just an observation i've had, and actually a statement flat out told to me by some players "Well, the ECL basically doesn't matter, so why worry?"

That all being said (and a bit off topic, sorry) I think our current race stat balances are perfectly fine for how the server is presented and functions. If the very basics of the server were to alter, then perhaps the races could be tailored, but as is, I don't think there's a need past what has already been re-balanced.

[Rhifox]

If it was up to me, ECL should have its experience penalty removed but a max level cap imposed instead. So Aasimar/Tieflings top out at 29, Drow at 28, and so on. Otherwise, they're just more powerful without any real downside.

I do feel it's about time the aasimar/tiefling proliferation is addressed, though. It really damages immersion.

[DaloLorn]

I'd rather go the Pathfinder route and ditch ECL, myself! Wouldn't be at all opposed to literally lifting the statblocks from the PFSRD.

[EasternCheesE]

If it was up to me, ECL should have its experience penalty removed but a max level cap imposed instead. So Aasimar/Tieflings top out at 29, Drow at 28, and so on. Otherwise, they're just more powerful without any real downside.

I do feel it's about time the aasimar/tiefling proliferation is addressed, though. It really damages immersion.

It could be addressed without more restrictions/rebalancing, just by making it so NPCs generally don't trust tieflings and reminding players that those fiendish bastards are fiends, thus must be shunned. For what it's worth, Faerun is not "equalty to everyone" place historically and tieflings do always balance between "kill it with fire" and "get off me, thiefling", but very few people do actually play according to RP bias denizens of Faerun must have by being the product of Faerun society.

The fact people game the game and play tiefers/aasimars/any other race with no regard to actual story of said races and implied complications said race brings, should be addressed by community and RP, not by technical limitations.
I'd rather see it that tiefers/non-standard folk have harder time earning faction trust etc because, well, they are different and most "standard" people are racists.

I may sound rude on my words, but my meaning is:
There are downsides of being any particular non-standard race lorewise and we should utilize those instead of forcing mechanical changes. Just like necromancers are generally kill-on-sight when spotted casting in BG, tieflings and aasimars and any other race can have their own RP complications for simple being those.
Just like Doron Amar would shoot any tiefling down near their walls.

[Ashenie]

If it was up to me, ECL should have its experience penalty removed but a max level cap imposed instead. So Aasimar/Tieflings top out at 29, Drow at 28, and so on. Otherwise, they're just more powerful without any real downside.

Hello there,

I have to agree with Rhifox here, as it's my understanding of how races are designed. They come with a bonus, but have a malus in levels, which should result with a level difference between them and other races. But maybe I understood it wrong.

I would not wish to see another step towards Pathfinders as a very personal taste. But it is my own opinion, I am sure others could and would be happy.

It could be addressed without more restrictions/rebalancing, just by making it so NPCs generally don't trust tieflings and reminding players that those fiendish bastards are fiends, thus must be shunned. For what it's worth, Faerun is not "equalty to everyone" place historically and tieflings do always balance between "kill it with fire" and "get off me, thiefling", but very few people do actually play according to RP bias denizens of Faerun must have by being the product of Faerun society.

The long researches around Baldur's Gate at least told me that Baldur's Gate is a way less tolerant city in our server than in lore, in which people of many race and any religion are welcome. Baldur's Gate is indeed descrbed a very tolerant city. So adujsting the reaction of people regarding the race might be negated by the fact that there is, in lore, places where people don't really care about this specific aspect of a character.

I hope that helps!

Cheers,

Ashenie

[Louvaine]

Changing races like that would certainly be the swing of pendulum to the other side, making them far inferior.

[Hullack]

I'd rather go the Pathfinder route and ditch ECL, myself! Wouldn't be at all opposed to literally lifting the statblocks from the PFSRD.

That would be great, if there's sufficient staff/player buy-in for it.

[Rhifox]

If it was up to me, ECL should have its experience penalty removed but a max level cap imposed instead. So Aasimar/Tieflings top out at 29, Drow at 28, and so on. Otherwise, they're just more powerful without any real downside.

I do feel it's about time the aasimar/tiefling proliferation is addressed, though. It really damages immersion.

It could be addressed without more restrictions/rebalancing, just by making it so NPCs generally don't trust tieflings and reminding players that those fiendish bastards are fiends, thus must be shunned. For what it's worth, Faerun is not "equalty to everyone" place historically and tieflings do always balance between "kill it with fire" and "get off me, thiefling", but very few people do actually play according to RP bias denizens of Faerun must have by being the product of Faerun society.

The fact people game the game and play tiefers/aasimars/any other race with no regard to actual story of said races and implied complications said race brings, should be addressed by community and RP, not by technical limitations.
I'd rather see it that tiefers/non-standard folk have harder time earning faction trust etc because, well, they are different and most "standard" people are racists.

I may sound rude on my words, but my meaning is:
There are downsides of being any particular non-standard race lorewise and we should utilize those instead of forcing mechanical changes. Just like necromancers are generally kill-on-sight when spotted casting in BG, tieflings and aasimars and any other race can have their own RP complications for simple being those.
Just like Doron Amar would shoot any tiefling down near their walls.

Except that the mechanical limitation is the intent of these stats in the first place. DnD games are not really meant to have gameplay at level cap, ECL races are meant to be lower level than their non-ECL counterparts throughout a campaign. The racial traits are mechanical bonuses with a built in negative that we are currently not employing on the server.

If you want the "downside" to be only RP, then the "upside" should also be only RP: no racial stats for anyone. But if there's a mechanical upside, then there also needs to be a mechanical downside. Otherwise, you get the situation we currently have: Everyone min-maxes, and we have a million aasimar and tieflings.

The other alternative, of course, is race applications.

[sweetlikesplenda]

The other alternative, of course, is race applications.

I am down for this

[izzul]

If it was up to me, ECL should have its experience penalty removed but a max level cap imposed instead. So Aasimar/Tieflings top out at 29, Drow at 28, and so on. Otherwise, they're just more powerful without any real downside.

I do feel it's about time the aasimar/tiefling proliferation is addressed, though. It really damages immersion.

I totally agree with this even when 15/19 of my roster would need to be changed due to ECL OPness.

about applications, since we already allow Red Wizard or Shadow Adept and many other things being played/created without applications and approval, i dont think that we need to change it now to be stringent on race/class picking.

I want to suggest a poll to inquire the population/feedback from each and every player to keep the future of the server healthy.

Example of the poll question
-Will you leave the server if your Aasimar/tiefling/drow is now max lvl 29/28? yes, maybe, no?
-would you want to revert your Red Wizard/Shadow Adept that you made without application/approval and now require submitting approval? yes, maybe, no?
-if you have 8 tiefling and 8 drows wizard/Sorc and Dexer in your roster, will this change affect you greatly and disheartened you to play anymore?

just a suggestion from my side, hope it would be helpful for the server

[BloodRiot]

Except that the mechanical limitation is the intent of these stats in the first place. DnD games are not really meant to have gameplay at level cap, ECL races are meant to be lower level than their non-ECL counterparts throughout a campaign. The racial traits are mechanical bonuses with a built in negative that we are currently not employing on the server.

If you want the "downside" to be only RP, then the "upside" should also be only RP: no racial stats for anyone. But if there's a mechanical upside, then there also needs to be a mechanical downside. Otherwise, you get the situation we currently have: Everyone min-maxes, and we have a million aasimar and tieflings.

The other alternative, of course, is race applications.

Are you being serious? You are out of your god damned mind if you think this is in any way fair towards those races.

Firstly:
So, "DnD games are not really meant to have gameplay at level cap". What they are meant to be played at the table has very little bearing on how they are meant to be played in NWN2 and a persistent server. Characters by the same token characters are also not meant to be playing epic levels as the norm of gameplay, yet here we are. I'd even go as far as to wager than epic levels are far more exceptional than playing at level cap. This is opinion of your is irrelevant to the nature of the game in BGTSCC. Moving on...

Secondly:
"downside being only RP" is very significant, the problem is that on BG only the drow and full orc seem to suffer from it. all other "weird races" can be plentiful and suffer no sort of shunning from society. I'm not saying be kind to drow, I'm saying start enforcing the RP appropriate to the rest of the races as it should be enforced. Moving on...

Thirdly and finally addressing the full implications of this massive change and what really prompted me to break silence to reply. And mostly because it just shows to me a total lack of seeing the wider picture of how things are affected:
Let's take drow because to me it's easy to use them as example as i know them well.
So, for the admittedly good racial stats of the Drow, they currently pay an XP penalty, and light blindness, and lets not ignore the social stigma of the race.

So let's break down the more meaningful implications of what you'd do if you had it your way:
drow would loose 2 levels worth of Class HD + Con Mod HP
drow would loose 2 levels worth of CL if they are full casters
drow would loose 2 levels worth of BAB progression
drow would loose 2 levels worth of Class / Feat DC if based off character level at least partially
drow would loose at least 1 Epic Feat
drow would loose 2 levels worth of skill points
drow could potentially lose on APR if not full BAB progression
Several builds would be affected to the point they could be outright ruined with the loss of 2 levels`

so ill reiterate. You're out of your god damned mind if you think this is in any way fair.

[Tanlaus]

From a purely mechanical power point of view, we’ve got way bigger issues with AB/AC stacking through custom classes and feats than issues with racial stats.

[Ashenie]

Hello there,

Just to help the debate, there are version of drows and planetouched in the Player Guide to Faerûn that are without level adjustments. So if that is a question, the balance with other races has already been thought out by the books. It's by the end of the rule book, called "lesser versions".

I am not sure it helps, but at least it exists.

Cheers,

Ashenie