Remove the option to 'Appraise' other characters

[RoseFrost]

Given that discussions on Discord tend to vanish into the past, forever forgotten, I'm reposting this here so that it might exist in some less ephemeral form.

There are currently two main problems with the Appraise feat. To be clear, this is completely unrelated to the Appraise skill, which is used to value items and to haggle with NPC merchants.

1) Appraise is inherently meta-gamey
Currently when you right click on another character and appraise them, it reports their race and sex in the combat log. Unfortunately it doesn't take into account any circumstances where this information isn't conceivably available to the appraising character. That fully enclosed suit of armor? That's obviously an elf. That human with no odd and distinguishing features? Clearly a tiefling. The appraise skill does nothing but supply meta information.

But more to the point, the better way to approach identifying characteristics like race and sex is just to look at the character. Can you see elf ears, or just a face? Are they wearing a fully-enclosed helmet, or walking around fully revealed? We also have two different descriptions, Examine and Conditional Examine, which players can use to make clear what features are easily identifiable to other characters.

So it isn't just that Appraise is a trade-off: "it has the potential to be meta, but has some beneficial use case." Instead, the appraise function provides no useful function, and it has the potential to be metad. It is purely a negative.

2) Appraise interacts game-breakingly with disguise
The other ostensible use for Appraise is identifying characters who are disguised. There may be a potential future for this feature, but only if it is completely reworked from the ground up. Currently, if you successfully detect that a character is disguised, it doesn't just reveal this information to you, but it also completely removes that character's disguise and reveals them to everyone in the area.

The current Appraise vs. disguise system has no subtlety or step-wise identification. For example, a character who is disguising themselves by hiding in a full suit of armor to become unidentifiable is a very different circumstance from a character who is disguising themselves as a different person using make-up, fake moustache, etc. There also needs to be a distinction between realizing "hey, that person is disguised," which should be easier, and "hey, I know exactly who it is under that disguise," which should be more difficult.

Conclusion
The Appraise system is something that might, some day, after a complete from-the-ground rework, be useful. But in its current implementation it is such a negative that it should simply be disabled.

[renshouj]

it already has been! As of 44 minutes from this post

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Hidden: show

Given that discussions on Discord tend to vanish into the past, forever forgotten, I'm reposting this here so that it might exist in some less ephemeral form.

There are currently two main problems with the Appraise feat. To be clear, this is completely unrelated to the Appraise skill, which is used to value items and to haggle with NPC merchants.

1) Appraise is inherently meta-gamey
Currently when you right click on another character and appraise them, it reports their race and sex in the combat log. Unfortunately it doesn't take into account any circumstances where this information isn't conceivably available to the appraising character. That fully enclosed suit of armor? That's obviously an elf. That human with no odd and distinguishing features? Clearly a tiefling. The appraise skill does nothing but supply meta information.

But more to the point, the better way to approach identifying characteristics like race and sex is just to look at the character. Can you see elf ears, or just a face? Are they wearing a fully-enclosed helmet, or walking around fully revealed? We also have two different descriptions, Examine and Conditional Examine, which players can use to make clear what features are easily identifiable to other characters.

So it isn't just that Appraise is a trade-off: "it has the potential to be meta, but has some beneficial use case." Instead, the appraise function provides no useful function, and it has the potential to be metad. It is purely a negative.

2) Appraise interacts game-breakingly with disguise
The other ostensible use for Appraise is identifying characters who are disguised. There may be a potential future for this feature, but only if it is completely reworked from the ground up. Currently, if you successfully detect that a character is disguised, it doesn't just reveal this information to you, but it also completely removes that character's disguise and reveals them to everyone in the area.

The current Appraise vs. disguise system has no subtlety or step-wise identification. For example, a character who is disguising themselves by hiding in a full suit of armor to become unidentifiable is a very different circumstance from a character who is disguising themselves as a different person using make-up, fake moustache, etc. There also needs to be a distinction between realizing "hey, that person is disguised," which should be easier, and "hey, I know exactly who it is under that disguise," which should be more difficult.

Conclusion
The Appraise system is something that might, some day, after a complete from-the-ground rework, be useful. But in its current implementation it is such a negative that it should simply be disabled.

SVN Feed APP
AoS
Campaign: r118
Player creature appraisal suppressed until system is reworked.
Changed Files
gui_comeliness_script.NSS

[YourMoveHolyMan]

I miss this skill. Helped immensely due to the number of characters without a typed description.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

A more limited version of this returned and is active today. Is there something specific from it that you're wanting?

[YourMoveHolyMan]

will test it out and see whats there!

[Mork]

A more limited version of this returned and is active today. Is there something specific from it that you're wanting?

Personally I have problem with recognizing difference between blue elf and a drow from graphical representation in the game. On multiple times I've met white haired dark skinned elves and there is absolutely nothing other than NPC reaction to tell the difference.

Lorewise I understand it would be not entirely obvious to someone unfamiliar with drow but very obvious to someone who's been in their cities. So yes.. recognition of race and gender with -1000 appraise and having spot score of molerat is absolutely needed. It would should be obvious to recognize on any uncovered face right away regardless of spot/appraise or any other possible skill roll.

I assume problem is with inability to tag specific helmet skins with property that marks whenever they hide the face of not but it's a problem nonetheless.

I understand meta data concern but other side of it's aspects should be also be considered as graphical representation is not enough in many cases for proper identification. I even got into awkward interaction with hins assuming female one is male cause it's not like all models look feminine which I presume wouldn't be IC problem.

[Goat]

A more limited version of this returned and is active today. Is there something specific from it that you're wanting?

Personally I have problem with recognizing difference between blue elf and a drow from graphical representation in the game. On multiple times I've met white haired dark skinned elves and there is absolutely nothing other than NPC reaction to tell the difference.

Lorewise I understand it would be not entirely obvious to someone unfamiliar with drow but very obvious to someone who's been in their cities. So yes.. recognition of race and gender with -1000 appraise and having spot score of molerat is absolutely needed. It would should be obvious to recognize on any uncovered face right away regardless of spot/appraise or any other possible skill roll.

I assume problem is with inability to tag specific helmet skins with property that marks whenever they hide the face of not but it's a problem nonetheless.

I understand meta data concern but other side of it's aspects should be also be considered as graphical representation is not enough in many cases for proper identification. I even got into awkward interaction with hins assuming female one is male cause it's not like all models look feminine which I presume wouldn't be IC problem.

And it should be representable via in game looks actually. Drow using those colors are in fact, incorrect. It's something I been eyeballing (And the DM's know of it the couple months.) because Drow are not dusky or blue. This is a not an issue with appraise, this is an issue with us letting drow get away with far to many colors of the rainbow over the years - and it needs to stop, honestly.

Appraise needs to be fixed though before hand. There were far too many people complaining about it, and far too much abuse with people using it heavily. Like someone in full armor shouldn't be recognizable. I know people can say 'but the size', but in some context I think it would be difficult to notice a drow vs a smaller elf in full armor. Yes obviously theres the claim of 'OMG a DWARF I CAN TELL BECAUSE BODY' but you don't need to appraise, just use common knowledge of what you see and know in that case. I would treat that as different anyways.

But you are absolutely right of the colors!

[YourMoveHolyMan]

Wasn't it a set roll of 1d20+disguise against 1d20+spot? The issue may be in that there needs to be more disguise gear available, if there is a return to the older system. (I could be way off, I've not ever looked for disguise gear, but it does not seem to be available).

[selhan]

When it comes to Disguise, I myself only ever handled it one way,

1, Disguise rolls are for the DM's
2, Disguise a PC maybe using? , base it off their actual appearance.

Disguise is a fun mechanic if used with respect and considerations of someones gameplay. Respect the persons effort in disguise and most times there just isnt any issues. The old appraise mechanic had a terrible flaws that metagamed a person in disguise on a couple of levels.

If we stuck to the actual Appearance of the character theres really no room for debate in my opinion. A Drow with a mask that still exposes the ebony skin through the slit for the eyes simply exposes thus. The Crimson eyes exposes thus. I myself hated to Rp as if I dont notice that when its screaming at you, but with respect to the players gameplay, I go with the flow. However for the Drow that selects a helm that completely covers their skin tone and their eyes, I commend them for their efforts and will consider that quality Rp.

If I was a Drow and I didnt want anyone to know I am a drow, I will select outfits that will completely cover any possible evidence of being a Drow. Because what you see and dont see is what a person should go with as a general rule.

If I was a drow that just wanted to hide "Which" Drow I am, then I will go with a half hearted attempt.

In a case where a Dwarf uses the Disguise and claims their an elf..I'd just walk away from the rp. If a Shield Dwarf Disguises as a Gray Dwarf and alters outfits and even skin tone rping they smothered coal all over them, I will totally respect that attempt. The current Appraise mechanic does help against the obvious meta like the older version did, which has been long overdue. However yes the system is still not perfect and still needs work on for fine tuning.

But overall if a player cant simply try to respect the Disguise persons gameplay, why even bother ? I myself would lean to simply remove the Appraise mechanic except the use of buying and selling items only because it is a feature that has caused more harm and drama than fun.

[Mork]

Small update:
Graphical representation ingame wasn't enough for a Paladin to recognize SKELTAL HAND that another character apparently worn openly and proudly so... please don't claim graphical representation is enough. Those are often goddamned 20x20 pixels!