summons need more AC

[Ithilan]

Did you know the Essence of Deva Tears Sap from the temple of Ilmater contains 3 uses of Heal that you don't need UMD for and can be used on others? I'll admit I'm not entirely sure if it's wise for those to continue to be available!

I actually didnt know that. If the price is reasonably high I dont see the issue though, the more gold sinks the better

I don't mean to be pedantic, but the case of the cooked food that I mentioned is not UMD. I actually agree that an ideal world wouldn't make UMD feel mandatory. But I do think in D&D some level of consumable use should be expected.

A reasonable correction, though im afraid the non UMD consumables are quite incomparable to a few wands or scrolls. Lesser vigor also has an incredibly short duration, it takes a lot of rat meat to work with the summons health pools id imagine. A ring of nine lives could be a worthwhile inventory item for an arcane summoner though.

We used to have stone root for greater stoneskin available too, im not certain if we still do through the current herb system, but those kind of alternatives/additional consumables would help a lot for some things as well.

I do have a repertoire of wands, including stuff like Stoneskin, and I have several of those water things that recharge every rest that give lesser vigor. It still isnt enough to compensate for having 35-38 AC on the summons. They still just die in higher level dungeons in mere moments. The enemies AB is just way too high and the consumables do not compensate for it. The summons dont do much damage either, so if they cant be used for damage, and cant be used to tank for the Arcane caster-thaum using them, then things are most certainly underpowered in these scenerios.

though it doesnt seem anyone is interested in resolving these issues. My level 30 RW is basically unable to dungeon delve at the moment so I tend to just RP and avoid it. I guess ill just continue doing that. But really an increase of 5 or so AC across the board is a pretty simple change that would do wonders for these. Even if you have to make it Thaum or Epic Spell Focus exclusive, it would go a long way.

Yeah seems there is a significant difference both in the arcane and divine spectrum of conjuror builds and the good vs evil options. So whilst im opposed to general buffs to summons that would increase the power creep of my characters type of build, perhaps the solution would be to look at undead summons in particular, to buff the capabilities of evil and neutral arcane summoners? What numbers to configure is hard to say, my own build excels a lot from the absurd amount of healing through spontaneous conversions, epic mass heal and other goodies like Eldaths Soothing Pools, which stacks with regeneration. As well as covering all AC type of buffs and extended recitations.

I do not think I could push an evil cleric to the same performance levels at all really, unless undead are strong enough to allow for them to be sustained through negative energy spells instead.

But how to fix the big gap between arcane and divine conjurors in itself, I do not know.

[Steve]

If PvE is going to be reduced in combat stats across the board, that’s a solution as well, but ONLY if it would be balanced to Summons current power levels, and I just doubt that is the MO.

Summons could get greater AC, or greater DR/-, or even go through the Summons and custom some to have a specialty—attack or AC or outright dmg—so the Conjurer can be selective for what to have based on the situation at hand.

But if a general consensus is that only dedicated Conjurers should reap the benefit of improvements, just bump up stuff based on Spell Focus, such as along with the current buffing of HD, also add AC +1/+2/+4. Simple and done.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Hidden: show

I do have a repertoire of wands, including stuff like Stoneskin, and I have several of those water things that recharge every rest that give lesser vigor. It still isnt enough to compensate for having 35-38 AC on the summons. They still just die in higher level dungeons in mere moments. The enemies AB is just way too high and the consumables do not compensate for it. The summons dont do much damage either, so if they cant be used for damage, and cant be used to tank for the Arcane caster-thaum using them, then things are most certainly underpowered in these scenerios.

though it doesnt seem anyone is interested in resolving these issues. My level 30 RW is basically unable to dungeon delve at the moment so I tend to just RP and avoid it. I guess ill just continue doing that. But really an increase of 5 or so AC and +1 regen across the board is a pretty simple change that would do wonders for these. Even if you have to make it Thaum or Epic Spell Focus exclusive, it would go a long way. Even with that change, they will likely still die pretty easily too, so its a pretty minor buff.

• Inherent regen with the summons is not going to happen. This is remedied / supplied by sufficient enough provisions the PW already offers. Some of the summons heal themselves already.
• Epic level content doesn't have design intention to be soloable content, especially not via disposable summons.
• Thaum summons are augments to the rest of the Thaum's spellbook / abilities. Access to level 9 spells, the caster can be the tank in many of these scenarios.
• PvE rework to lower the ceilings is a more appropriate change than power creeping the summons, which is a solution already underway.
• There are tactics / build trouble / spell / game mechanic misunderstanding where shortcomings are experienced.

I was able to take my Master Alchemist without any Thaum levels through Frost Giants on summons, making liberal use of the infernal crocodile and conjured metalmen while throwing improved fire flasks.

Seperately yesterday I tested just one summoned non Thaum Asura while I stayed either invisible or in etherealness, and cautiously had it range one giant at a time to aggro then flicked on the melee behavior in the tab while reapplying stoneskin and conceal. For the Jarl I used a Planetar. A Paelthree will work just as fine. For the Lich I counterspelled the mord, Vamp Feast, and a few of its other spells via Greater Dispel, then pummeled it to death as a shaped iron golem.

This was attempted without Thaum bonuses, two separate characters, and frequently didn't have a second or more in summons available unless I wanted to Malicious Image the Jarl and swarm with the metalmen.

[Steve]

Git gud Rask!! lol.

[Rask]

If PvE is going to be reduced in combat stats across the board, that’s a solution as well, but ONLY if it would be balanced to Summons current power levels, and I just doubt that is the MO.

Summons could get greater AC, or greater DR/-, or even go through the Summons and custom some to have a specialty—attack or AC or outright dmg—so the Conjurer can be selective for what to have based on the situation at hand.

But if a general consensus is that only dedicated Conjurers should reap the benefit of improvements, just bump up stuff based on Spell Focus, such as along with the current buffing of HD, also add AC +1/+2/+4. Simple and done.

Yeah one of my issues is ive heard the "we're going to rebalance all the mobs so we're not going to change X Y Z thing" for 5 or so years now and its never actually happened. Though I see that someone is actually working on it these days, which is positive.

I also agree that the rebalance is probably not going to take these issues into account. Your proposition of adding it as you bump up spell focuses and potentially Thaum levels would also be a good one. Its really that dedicated summoners are extremely underpowered in epics and it takes - a lot- of spells and buffs, wands ect already to make them work, you dont honestly have much left for anything else, and then to watch them walk into battle and crumple like a wep napkin is very sad.

As for the idea to buff undead, not all evil summoners use undead. I cant speak to others but my restricted school is Necromancy for my RW. But that being said, I have heard very similar complaints from the Necromancers in the RW guild, that the summons look cool but are mostly worthless.

Im not asking to solo all the content here, I just want to be able to contribute something to the party. As it stands, summons dont contribute enough damage to be useful because their AB also sucks, and so does their damage, and then you combine that with bad AC and they die long before they can deal enough damage to contribute anyway.

The Asura was mentioned above by AoS, but Evil doesnt have access to the Asura, or any neutral summons as I said earlier. Evil Summons are even more underpowered than the neutral and good ones, which are also underpowered themselves. Evil -used- to get access to the neutral summons, but it was changed at some point.

Also "use your mage as the tank" still doesnt really work, not every Wizard wants to use still spell and that shouldnt be a requirement to make this work. Not every player wants to play a hyper-optimized power build gish ( which is already hard enough to do even if you wanted to as a RW.)

Whats the point of having all these summons selectible when 95% of them are effectively worthless anyway?

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Yeah one of my issues is ive heard the "we're going to rebalance all the mobs so we're not going to change X Y Z thing" for 5 or so years now and its never actually happened.

its never actually happened

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Just some of the changes in public display.

For the rest of the response I encourage practicing the class more.

Git gud Rask!! lol.

Some just needlessly struggle.

[Rask]

Yeah one of my issues is ive heard the "we're going to rebalance all the mobs so we're not going to change X Y Z thing" for 5 or so years now and its never actually happened.

its never actually happened

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Just some of the changes in public display.

For the rest of the response I encourage practicing the class more.

Git gud Rask!! lol.

Some just needlessly struggle.

Okie dokie. Like making suggestions to a brick wall i guess. I wont waste anymore of my time.

[Steve]

Some just needlessly struggle.

Yeah, I know. I’m in this group. But I also know why: as an independent player, I really do t want to be “pushed” to “do it this one way to succeed” in my experience of the game, in specific or in general.

In this Summons case, I don’t want to be limited to using this one specific summons or Metalmen—does that spell choice fit my Character??—and employ this one tactic in this one Area in order to counter argument and prove that it’s just me not the game that is limited. The idea that I’m or anyone else is just not doing what someone else does mechanically and thus my experience is wrong, diminishes the experience of the game. Period.

On that note, yes, it can be argued that this game and server is just factually limited in a million ways and just be realistic Steve, don’t ask for much from a finite experience and you should know what you got yourself into, and that if you CHOOSE to struggle that’s on you, not “us.”

I get it. I’m not intentionally struggling, I just want to have and see available for all as much variety and possibility as possible in the experience.

And it’s just simply true that certain aspects—spells, Classes, etc—are far greater or weaker than others because of the application of said mechanics in the Environment.

But change is on the horizon!!!

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Some just needlessly struggle.

Yeah, I know. I’m in this group. But I also know why: as an independent player, I really do t want to be “pushed” to “do it this one way to succeed” in my experience of the game, in specific or in general.

There's multiple ways to succeed, but there are also written limitations in the form of the class, the spell, the environment, and the recipient or target in this case. Wizards are the last word in the world of versatility and second to none.

In this Summons case, I don’t want to be limited to using this one specific summons or Metalmen—does that spell choice fit my Character??—and employ this one tactic in this one Area in order to counter argument and prove that it’s just me not the game that is limited. The idea that I’m or anyone else is just not doing what someone else does mechanically and thus my experience is wrong, diminishes the experience of the game. Period.

What I provided is what's called an example. What works for one person may not work for another, and isn't guaranteed success another time around in a game that relies more heavily on dice rolls, but from a static and very base - non PrC supported function that is doable, means that the PrC's additions to the experience is an improved one upon that example already. Players can choose to use the example, or they can go their own route about accomplishing the same goal - we're not an experience-on-rails PW. What I'm not going to do is power creep the summons needlessly when there's mechanics that nets the suggested requests already. There's no desire here to let a player just flop a few pokemon down and have a brain-turned-off run through an epic dungeon and with the lowering tide of the PvE ceilings the summons will already be receiving boon where diceroll results lay.

On that note, yes, it can be argued that this game and server is just factually limited in a million ways and just be realistic Steve, don’t ask for much from a finite experience and you should know what you got yourself into, and that if you CHOOSE to struggle that’s on you, not “us.”

I get it. I’m not intentionally struggling, I just want to have and see available for all as much variety and possibility as possible in the experience.

And it’s just simply true that certain aspects—spells, Classes, etc—are far greater or weaker than others because of the application of said mechanics in the Environment.

But change is on the horizon!!!

Options and variability isn't as tall an order as one might think. I think there should be more summons to pick and choose from to account for more environments, may even at some point add variability for the stats of a summon off of a base template with more attributes changed per spell focus investment such as 1 to a save, 2 to an attribute, a damage change to the weapon, etc, but flat regen and 5 AC isn't it.

[Steve]

There's no desire here to let a player just flop a few pokemon down and have a brain-turned-off run through an epic dungeon and with the lowering tide of the PvE ceilings the summons will already be receiving boon where diceroll results lay.

Wow. I'm thankful that you're on the team AoS and for all the contributions you make to the Server, but you really know how to belittle others to the point that I guess I'll stay the (do-me) out your way from now on.

[3 to 20]

I wonder if you all levelled up your Summoners from level one, or if you just used the RCR to get your characters to level 20.

The difference here being in that if you start from scratch, literally from nothing, you have to learn how to deal with the low AC on your summons. You have to learn how to deal with the fact that you might have to use a lower level summon just in order to be able to extend its duration into something more usable, or to save a spell slot for something else. Never mind the fact that you probably have to quick slot the custom feats used to actually control and command your summons. A cleric can wear that full plate and shield, while bashing heads with any old club. But if you are playing an arcanist, bashing opponents stops being a usable tactic far sooner rather than later, not forgetting the fact that your spell book needs to be dedicated to buffing up your summon and eventually summons. And therefore, a simple invisibility spell goes for a long mile in providing survivability for an arcanist. But you might encounter those random mobs spawned in with the ability to see through your invisibility, and thus you will have to command your summons to take them all down before you get taken down yourself. And then comes the positioning of your summons in a way that it reduces the number of enemies attacking them, while making sure that your primary summons can actually always focus on the exact same opponent in order to bring it down faster. And you will discover that bashing or opening chests will break your invisibility spell, so your looting will be restricted to what remains on the corpses or "boss" chests, because you just cannot afford the additional spell slots for anything else. You will also need some back up spells in case your summons get partially dispelled. Oh, and as for keeping your summons alive through the fights, well, you certainly must hope that you didn't Min-Max your character to have a non-existent strength ability score, because you will need that additional carrying capacity for stacks of Healing kits. You have to know what fights you can pick, when to do so, and what you simply cannot.

And you know what the end result of all of the above is? The most hectic gameplay you can have on the server: you have to understand what is going on around you at all times, and make constant quick decisions. It can be great deal of fun, but it can be very exhausting too. Thus playing a summoner properly is not just pressing your personal keyboard binds for the selection of the next hostile and to perform the default attack action, you have to think and act constantly. And the sad thing is, it is not something that everyone can master. Some people just cannot spot the threats, react fast enough, or even shift through their spell book in order to maximize what can be done with it. Some people just do not have what it takes, and yet some others can make it seem like the most simplest thing ever. As an example, my wizard could "solo" some of these "epic areas" well before reaching "epic levels," and even if I were to publicly share the exact Specialist Wizard build, which had Necromancy as its forbidden school by the way, I do not believe everyone would find the same ease of "soloing" those exact same "epic areas".

So when it comes to the request to increase summon AC, or innate regeneration, the problem is that everyone on the server has seen at least once someone commanding a full host of summons and steam rolling through the server. People are not going to make distinction that those were probably all Divine Casters, who are usually perfectly capable of just fighting toe to toe even without their great host of summons by their side. Therefore, the flaw of the suggestion is that it ends up benefiting those who arguably would not need the additional help in the first place. And as for role-play based burdens that forbid certain approaches, those are always things the player himself decides to impose on himself. So when it comes to the Summoner Arcanists, the question simply becomes what else can you do other than to buff up your own summons? I believe there can be a satisfying compromise in between the desired mechanical performance and the role-playing concept, but if you cannot reach it on your own, you might have to ask for some help and probably share little bit more about your character than its name.

And if particular areas are extremely troublesome, it would be wise to list them. And if particular mobs are especially nasty, then those too should be mentioned. Because, going through every single "epic area" and mob is just a time consuming effort while the available free time people have is always and forevermore limited. Therefore, if you can name an area X, or a mob Y, it becomes far more reasonable for someone to have a look at them, and possibly alter them if necessary.

And why not suggest feats that exist in PnP?

For example there are two Augment Summoning feats, first one the server has and the second is this. Then there is the Augment Elemental feat for little bit more AB and damage, Demon Mastery could be changed to grant +1HD, Dragonmarked Summoner could grant up to +3 AC, Icy Calling would be +4 strength and dexterity in cold areas, and finally there is the Stalwart Planar Ally that grants +4 to AC and saves.

But you do you. It involves me not.

[Rinzler]

What’s the TLDR?

[mrm3ntalist]

What’s the TLDR?

You really want to know?

[Ewe]

What’s the TLDR?

TLDR: Summoner mastery comes from leveling, not RCR shortcuts. Buffs shouldn't replace experience. It's a call to earn power, not patch around it. The tone leans "git gud," with a side of you bought your way in with RCR (like buying an MMO account). Also carries a whiff of arrogance: only the top percentile can truly master summoning, and if you do, you can solo epic areas before hitting epic levels. Though, it's left intentionally vague on specifics.

Basically elitist discourse.

[3 to 20]

Though, it's left intentionally vague on specifics. Basically elitist discourse.

Oh, I did not realise it was required to provide step by step instructions how one should open one's character sheet, look at the listed feats, and how one could drag and drop the "Control Henchmen" feats onto one's quickbar, and how one could then simply trigger them by pressing the correct key on one's own keyboard, and give examples of what kind of commands are appropriate in very specific situations. In addition to booking a plane ticket, potentially getting a visa, and then flying over to wherever it is required in order to show how it is done in person.

But then again, I do recall how my level eight-eleven-ish Drunken Fist character almost defeated a level sixteen-twenty-ish Ranger/Assassin builds, which was apparently very best of the best builds, because the player using that particular character just kept spamming Many-Shot and getting that -8 AB penalty every single round of combat. At first I thought the guy was just trying to let me win, but then came the panicked Heal potion quaffing to ensure the victory. Then there was the time when my level 12 "Warrior" saw two fellows in a mid to high level area, and I thought that maybe partying up would be fun and fine. But when I gote there I discovered that they weren't so called locals, and that their levels were in the epics but hidden. Unfortunately I made I choice to use the in game language of "Fae" or whatever to see what kind of role-play they were actually up to, but they just took it as confirmation of hostilities and attacked first... After which, I pressed a button on the quick bar, and then another, scored a lucky critical hit or two in a row, and then they too started to panic and began to HiPS in and out of sight, while quaffing those potions of Heal. Or what about... Oh... I think there is a pattern here.

I truly apologise for the genuinely ever so elitist discourse of mine, I often forget just how bad the average understanding of the in game mechanics has become over these long years. I blame it all on the prevalence of the in game cult that forever worships those Burning Bungholes of Baator, instead of going on and having fun little adventures.

And since I wish not to further disturb the equality of mutually shared and enforced ineptitude, with my discourse of the most exemplar of all exemplars of elitism, I will once again say: You do you. It involves me not.

Oh, and the Burning Bungholes of Baator is a reference to past DM events in and about the vicinity of the Friendly Arm Inn. If you do not get the reference, it is fine, it is not important. It just sounds funny to me and that is all.