Community Proposal : Material Component Spell Costs

[edmaster]

Played on a nwn1 server that had implemented this system (Poorly imo, but that is neither here and there) and it sort of worked there cause leveling was slowwwwww and the average Level was either below level 10 or mid teens with the highest being level 21). Spells like Fireball or similar spells at around that level felt a lot more impactful than they usually do in Most NWN 1 and 2 PW thus most people didn't mind burning Components to cast a spell that might clear our a small group. It would definitely require a hard glance over at PVE.

[RedLancer]

The paces of play in a NWN2 persistent world versus the PnP game aren't really comparable, and the systems that govern the expression of a PC's power as taken from the source material become cumbersome. Spells per day is already a less-than-ideal mechanism for limiting spell casting in such an environment; adding a resource cost on top would be antagonistic to a positive player experience.

[Ewe]

To OP, would we add the 3.5e eschew materials feat?

[Dragonslayer]

I only glossed over most of the thread, but I'll add my hay-penny:

As someone who plays a dedicated wizard, gold costs to spells create a further barrier to PvE content while the content remains as it is. As it stands now, the inflated HP of enemy NPCs and the restrictive resting options force mages to conserve offensive spells to the point of maybe casting one or two per encounter in a dungeon, which gives a non melee mage a feeling of general uselessness comparatively to melee characters or to unrestricted casters like warlocks.

Of course, there are ways around it to an extent. Shapechange, summons, etc. But I think before a casting cost is levied on characters that can barely keep up in PvE content, said content needs to be rebalanced in order to justify restricting pure casters further.

We have a spell demand problem not a spell supply problem. It's to the point where evocation is effectively obsolete. It should not take 3 - 4 igms to take down one +/- 25 CR monster. Implementing a tax on spells would only make that problem worse.

I understand in this hypothetical scenario it comes with a PvE rebalance to reduce HP, saves, etc. on spawns. Still, I feel like a consumption tax is opening a new multiverse of challenges without attempting to fix existing things that need refinement.

Never thought I'd agree with Rinzler, but here we are.

[Rask]

I only glossed over most of the thread, but I'll add my hay-penny:

As someone who plays a dedicated wizard, gold costs to spells create a further barrier to PvE content while the content remains as it is. As it stands now, the inflated HP of enemy NPCs and the restrictive resting options force mages to conserve offensive spells to the point of maybe casting one or two per encounter in a dungeon, which gives a non melee mage a feeling of general uselessness comparatively to melee characters or to unrestricted casters like warlocks.

Of course, there are ways around it to an extent. Shapechange, summons, etc. But I think before a casting cost is levied on characters that can barely keep up in PvE content, said content needs to be rebalanced in order to justify restricting pure casters further.

We have a spell demand problem not a spell supply problem. It's to the point where evocation is effectively obsolete. It should not take 3 - 4 igms to take down one +/- 25 CR monster. Implementing a tax on spells would only make that problem worse.

I understand in this hypothetical scenario it comes with a PvE rebalance to reduce HP, saves, etc. on spawns. Still, I feel like a consumption tax is opening a new multiverse of challenges without attempting to fix existing things that need refinement.

Never thought I'd agree with Rinzler, but here we are.

I have to agree with the above, both Dragon and Rinzlers points. The inflated resistances and HP of current mobs in PVE make primary casters like Wizards and Sorcs already at a huge disadvantage in PVE over other classes, and costs them all their spells in order to overcome even basic high level mobs, and once cast, it takes ages between rests to get it back. Further punishing these types of pure caster builds only further drives people into pidgeon holed gish/power builds in order to survive in PVE and goes against any aspect of build variety, which is ALREADY a problem on this server.

There would need to be serious rebalancing before something like this could be even thought about.

[Ithrinael]

Well, I will simply quote the opening post:

This allows development to then remove HP sponge, high save, high stat NPCs off the board, changed to something far more suitable that doesn't require 10+ buffs for dungeon crawling, DM events, etc. Players would have more points to distribute elsewhere as they'll not need to necessitate level 8 scrolls at whim for simple encounters.

[Rask]

Well, I will simply quote the opening post:

This allows development to then remove HP sponge, high save, high stat NPCs off the board, changed to something far more suitable that doesn't require 10+ buffs for dungeon crawling, DM events, etc. Players would have more points to distribute elsewhere as they'll not need to necessitate level 8 scrolls at whim for simple encounters.

I think the point is more that the rebalance needs to be done first. This server has been saying they are going to rebalance for years now and its never happened. Putting these walls up on mages before the rebalance is done first is just going to needlessly punish certain builds. Its more of a matter of priorities.

[DM Mimic]

I would also like to see the rebalance happen first, for whatever my two pennies are worth.

[BloodRiot]

Seems the only consensus we are getting out of this, and it's not a bad one, is that regardless of your stance on the matter, players are wanting the pve rebalance, and if this suggestion is to go forward, the rebalance must come first.

[Tantive]

Speaking conservatively, I would say that adding to the rest timer per day while doing the mobs rebalancing would be far more to the point first.

Material component gathering, or even scribing your scrolls, is allot of maintenance that particularly should be done while you don't have to be at the keyboard. Instead of a layering an addition on top, make the gathering of spell component materials a rewarding system to negate your usual costs.

I would add that Mage towers, mage guilds where you have a membership, should count for removing a certain amount of any tediousness thats associated with spell component gathering, that would have a certain set of spell component income for free. A feat you could have guild members work toward for shared costs and gathering.

My general question facing this: I wanna play more mage, what allows me to have more fun playing mage. What allows me to have fun playing mage when the hours are short? Do I need to stock up on more time and gold component prepping before I get to use my mage in an event or something? If i wanna go component diving, I preferably would want it to be an additional of the fun, then a decrease of it. How would this be achieved?

What tediousness in a mage's life could you remove, and what could you do to bring more incentive to play more mage related stuff. Do I need to do more steps before I get to mage freely?

Yes plox, let me blow monsters up with big fireballs and see their reduced hp dwindle. But if scouring shops every time is the requirement, I would prefer I can do something to reduce continuous material gathering, like have npcs hired toward a guild hall that do the more menial jobs. Maybe say Resting within a guild hall thats a designated wizards hall with benefits for cost reduction, would reduce your component need costs as opposed to needing to rest when in the field, because the hall already offers basic supply.

Could I as a lead mage, give incentive to a group of newbies to join up to a tower, so their component costs and gathering is reduced with a logistical need that was already taken care of priorly. Something that doesn't have us fighting the game's UI, and have us need a shared item deposits.

[blazerules]

Generally you'd want components to be LOW hassle and LOW friction. This includes knowing what you need to buy, how much, the storage method, where you buy (you dont want it somewhere annoyingly far away. Next to blunt and at the FAI near the merchant works too). Anything less is a hard disagree on this being a thing because it adds tedium that would not outweigh anything else.

[jclay65]

Adding an XP cost component would be in line with crafting wands and mixing elixirs?

[BloodRiot]

That is not gonna fly too well at all. People have to cast while leveling.

I think this whole thread should be moved into a more broad "costs of adventuring" for all classes and archetypes thread. After a PVE rework, perhaps just operating costs can be added where crafting costs, repair costs, consumable costs, travel costs and material component costs among many things can be considered. Just putting the burden of costs on casters seems unfair unless for some reason the pve rebalance just makes them super OP, which in all fairness, may happen, with DC casting potentially being able to willy nilly disable boss level encounters with little effort.

Again, we'll see.

[metaquad4]

Adding busy-work doesn't sound like a good idea. "How does this game the game more fun?" should always be the question of the day. If we need gold-sink ideas, there are FAR better ones (i.e. consumables).

I've seen it done before. Arelith had a fully fleshed economy and even there, spell components and repair was a constant complaint as something that didn't really bring a whole lot of benefit (which I agree, after spending around 8000 hours in that ecosystem).

Even the ones we have can cause pain. I recently did a dungeon run with Solaris' player and a few other. A couple of us died and because we "spent too much time RPing" (spending too much time RPing should not be a thing that is penalized) and fighting mobs we lost the 5 minute window (which should be extended imo, but that's a whole different discussion). None of us really knew how much reagents we needed, so we expended 1 diamond and the resurrection spell we tried failed. I figured based on the description it was 10 diamonds, which we all decided was pretty absurd for a dungeon run (none of us had the amount on hand). It was overall not a great experience and probably something that could be fixed in some way (maybe by making the raise dead timer scale with the CL of the raise dead casting so player clerics and purposefully higher CL scrolls can actually do their job).

Miss me on reagents and expenses I'd say. Our characters don't stop existing when we log out, all that dull none-sense can be safely relegated to when we aren't playing in our imaginations.

We don't need to create a problem to mentally justify the solving a problem. We don't need to create another problem at all. PvE balance is *already* a problem (not a huge one, but it is one).

[Dreme]

I've often been one to play arcane archers and always use magical arrows. I can say that it is very tedious doing the math of how worth is it to do a dungeon. Often, you are breaking even at most. It wasn't till I stopped playing arcane archers that I realized how easy it is to build up a dragon's hoard. That said, adding a component cost to spells, while it might help to curb some of the wand spam and limit self buffing builds, it will even more impact one of the core yet weakest classes in the game at the moment, that being the caster mage. Blaster or DC based. Also, I wouldn't want to have to ask for payment from my party members every time I buff one of them. "So you want cats grace, bulls strength, improved mage armor, spider skin, greater heroism, greater magic weapon and greater invisibility for the boss? The total so far comes out to 2,595 gold. Would you like any fries with that?"

I really like playing DC mages but rarely ever do and when I do I don't usually play them long because they feel very underwealmjng, basically resorting to buff botting and shape change + summons so that you can have a presences through some of the longer dungeons and feel useful the whole way through. This would only seem to make a mage's problems worse. I wouldn't mind something that makes wands and elixir less useful but I'd rather see wands and elixir removed from the server (at least craftable versons) than see another pit fall put into place for the caster mage.

As for gold sinks.. I again wouldn't imagine this to ever be a thing that happens but selling wishes for xmillion gold to give a permanent, non transferable stat increase seems like an effective gold sink that any longer term player would go for but wouldn't greatly swing balance and would bring value to gold again. Might say you could only do it once or only once per stat and might even require you do something else on top of the gold exchange.. but that is a totally different topic