Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.

[mrm3ntalist]

My point is that every melee build with 30 bab is walking around like a gish.

Improved Mage Armor
Mirror Image
Greater Heroism
Death Ward
Shield
Concealment
Lesser Mind Blank

The above are all basically standard and I’m sure I’ve forgotten some. Then you can add in elixirs/scrolls.

So no, I’m not a fan of CL 30 scrolls. Especially because you can dip rogue and max UMD now.

As for Steve’s comment on attuning items, I don’t think being able to use my ring that gives vampiric feast 1x day at full CL is a huge tip on the power scale relative to what’s available to non-casters above.

Edit:: iPhone autocorrect

Thats true because all these are essential ( maybe not all at the same time but that is just me ). Even in a group play, there will be dispels, deaths etc and you will need those wands to survive. The melee builds do not get the wards, clerics, bards, wizards etc get to survive. Meleers dont do it because they want to look like christmas trees but because they are needed. I keep hearing there is a mob rework etc but at least when that happens wands will be essentails for melee builds. And again, you and I will be fine with such change because we have the items and we know the mechanics to compensate for any removal of umd items. So it is easy for us to say "I am not a fan of them".

In addition maxing umd comes at a greater cost ( skill points ) compared to basically no cost from items/potions and minimal cost from umd items such as wands.

[Steve]

So no, I’m not a fan of CL 30 scrolls. Especially because you can dip rogue and max UMD now.

Okay, I hear you. Let's talk this out with options.

But first, cost:

The base price of a scroll is its spell level x its caster level x 25 gp. To scribe a scroll, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price.

So a Level 30 scribe makes a Level 9 Spell scroll—let's say Shades. That would cost the scribe 6,750 in gp, and 270 XP per scroll made. Plus scroll paper cost (negligible, unless parchment is made less available or becomes an actual costly, limited resource like it should be...like everything should be).

Are those costs not worthy of the creation? Elixirs are the same but at 20gp multiplier.

So second, let's look at what in PnP it takes to USE/activate a scroll:

Activate the Spell

Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.

Essentially, UMD shouldn't even apply to reading scrolls! So why not actually cut off UMD from anything but wands and using Items that have Level/Race/Class restrictions. Oh wait...those restrictions are now, going forward, totally disabled.

So look! UMD is just a few decisions away from effectively being CANCELLED on BGTSCC! (do-me) hurrah!

[Steve]

My point is that every melee build with 30 bab is walking around like a gish.

Yeah but my own gish has BAB 25, CL 29, Tensor's Transformation, and plenty of gear with extra spell slots.

And as M3nt points out, after 16+ years on BGTSCC, you (do-me) by now should have stupid ridiculous good gear to compensate for scroll use.

[renshouj]

Essentially, UMD shouldn't even apply to reading scrolls!

To note, you can UMD a scroll in PnP at a check of 20 + Caster Level of the spell in the scroll

[Rinzler]

Thats true because all these are essential

This is maybe where you and I philosophically disagree. Why care about saves, a core part of DnD, when you can simply pop a death ward or mind blank wand? What's the real downside of using combat expertise when you can pop a greater heroism potion? What's the point of playing strategically when mirror image and displacement allow you to mindlessly Leeroy Jenkins content?

From my perspective, they are only essential if you want to be able to solo roflstomp every piece of content on the server. As mentioned above, a core part of DnD is having strengths and weaknesses. I do think the content needs to be more diverse so that there are some areas where non-casters do well, some areas where casters do well, etc.

What I'm not a fan of is let's just make everything available to everyone so everyone can do everything.

The base price of a scroll is its spell level x its caster level x 25 gp. To scribe a scroll, you must spend 1/25 of this base price in XP and use up raw materials costing one-half of this base price.

So a Level 30 scribe makes a Level 9 Spell scroll—let's say Shades. That would cost the scribe 6,750 in gp, and 270 XP per scroll made. Plus scroll paper cost (negligible, unless parchment is made less available or becomes an actual costly, limited resource like it should be...like everything should be).

Are those costs not worthy of the creation? Elixirs are the same but at 20gp multiplier.

So you're saying my wizard, who has an obscene amount of gold, can make 50 CL 30 (level 9) scrolls for $338,000 and 13,500 XP? . . . sure. I'll make that gold and XP back well before using 1/3 of those scrolls.

Activate the Spell

Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.

This is interesting, but a bit outside of my pay grade and would certainly piss off people who play rogues.

[Steve]

Essentially, UMD shouldn't even apply to reading scrolls!

To note, you can UMD a scroll in PnP at a check of 20 + Caster Level of the spell in the scroll

Decipher a Written Spell

This usage works just like deciphering a written spell with the Spellcraft skill, except that the DC is 5 points higher. Deciphering a written spell requires 1 minute of concentration. [Decipher a written spell: 25 + spell level]

Use a Scroll

If you are casting a spell from a scroll, you have to decipher it first. Normally, to cast a spell from a scroll, you must have the scroll’s spell on your class spell list. Use Magic Device allows you to use a scroll as if you had a particular spell on your class spell list. The DC is equal to 20 + the caster level of the spell you are trying to cast from the scroll. In addition, casting a spell from a scroll requires a minimum score (10 + spell level) in the appropriate ability. If you don’t have a sufficient score in that ability, you must emulate the ability score with a separate Use Magic Device check (see below).

Emulate an Ability Score

To cast a spell from a scroll, you need a high score in the appropriate ability (Intelligence for wizard spells, Wisdom for divine spells, or Charisma for sorcerer or bard spells). Your effective ability score (appropriate to the class you’re emulating when you try to cast the spell from the scroll) is your Use Magic Device check result minus 15. If you already have a high enough score in the appropriate ability, you don’t need to make this check.

It's a 3-step process in PnP. Far, far, far, far, far greater risk than on BGTSCC.

[Steve]

So you're saying my wizard, who has an obscene amount of gold, can make 50 CL 30 (level 9) scrolls for $338,000 and 13,500 XP? . . . sure. I'll make that gold and XP back well before using 1/3 of those scrolls.

If dems da rules, dems the rules!!! I want your wizard, my wizard, everyone's who has a wizard to be able to do what they were designed to do.

[renshouj]

It's a 3-step process in PnP. Far, far, far, far, far greater risk than on BGTSCC.

not really "risk" since you dont lose the scroll if you fail, but yes it's way more involved and with higher DCs than we have here

[DaloLorn]

It's pretty misleading to say UMD doesn't apply to using cross-class scrolls. Quite the contrary: You may need to make as many as three UMD checks if you don't meet the requirements:

1. Deciphering the scroll is either a DC20+SL Spellcraft or DC25+SL UMD check, whichever is easier. This goes up to DC29 Spellcraft or DC34 UMD.
2. After deciphering it, you must possess the appropriate minimum caster stat for the spell+spellbook combination you're using to activate the scroll: This is another DC25+SL UMD check to bypass.
3. Finally, you must have a caster level equal to the scroll or pass a DC1+CL caster level check (if the spell is in your class list), or pass a DC20+CL UMD check (if it isn't). In your proposal, the UMD check would go up to a maximum of DC50.

[Aspect of Sorrow]

I'm not against cL 30 scrolls if it means their costs are significant investments, to the point of a net loss for a dungeon loot run. Crafters would have to sacrifice 15,000 XP for a single cL 30 level 9, keeping the proliferation down, somewhere around 10 hours of RP XP.

This would permit its existence, but also not let it become a runaway train.

[Steve]

I'm not against cL 30 scrolls if it means their costs are significant investments, to the point of a net loss for a dungeon loot run. Crafters would have to sacrifice 15,000 XP for a single cL 30 level 9, keeping the proliferation down, somewhere around 10 hours of RP XP.

This would permit its existence, but also not let it become a runaway train.

Fair for an essentially unlimited environment.