Rebalance Skill modifiers

[Garnet]

Zhazz,

That's part of the issue, though.
You want to portray your character has acquired a certain proficiency in a given skill over time. So you use items to showcase that. Though some/most of those items are not the ones you will be wearing day-to-day. You put them on when you need to showcase your character's proficiency with e.g. Lore: Arcana. If you are then caught in a situation without those items on, and need to use your Lore: Arcana skill, you are suddenly less proficient than you ordinarily would be.

You could of course pick items that give skill bonuses, while also providing the other bonuses you are after. That's what several people try to do at least. There are downsides to it, however. Typically either reduced skill bonuses, attribute bonuses, armor, or spell slots.

I'm definitely on the opposite side of the fence here. Like you said, one really has to pick and choose what makes sense for their playstyle. At least in my case for example, I'm willing to sacrifice AC for skill-points whereas others may choose that AC is more important to them. My day-to-day gear is what I wear adventuring as well as RP with the exception of being in Disguise (which makes sense as you wouldn't wear your regular clothes here!). Having that ability to make the choice and a system of 'pros and cons' gives us better character diversity and allows people to focus on what's important to them while neglecting other aspects through conscious decision.

First it would require every DM to treat the rolls the same way, as otherwise a character is a master in one event, and a simpleton in another, despite no changes to the character.

I think that would be a DM team decision but I also don't feel like 'all DMs do DM equally', nor do I believe they are expected too. A DM may run an event and ask their participants to make a skill roll with a "DC" they have set in their mind. Another DM, may ask characters to take the same action a few days later but set a different "DC" for success. I will outright say that I have -no- DM experience at all, but I'm going to guess that there is no 'master skill sheet' that tells DM's what "DC" an action takes, nor do I think they keep track of DC's other DMs have set in the past-- I think its a DM judgement call and its up to the DMs discretion whether something ultimately passes or fails..... I think???

Second it's gonna be highly divisive to the player base. Some will find it unfair that they efforts to acquire equipment is not taken into consideration, while others will find it unfair equipment outshines their natural proficiency.

I agree with you here and your totally right, showing people the breakdown of 'Natural skill + equipment skill' will be really divisive and cause alot of disagreements. Good call!

Third if DMs agree to only consider the Natural part for events, then equipment with skill bonuses become worthless for events, which is one of the main reasons to invest into a skill in the first place (combat mechanical skills are a different thing entirely).

I don't think we should consider combat mechanics as a different choice against other skills. If you choose to focus on combat in leu of RP skills, or vice versa, you have decided that this is what's important to you. Both options should be available depending on what sort of experience your looking for playing the game. Those who want to focus on RP/high-skills should have that option to do so, in the same way that those solo players who constantly speed run Skull Gorge have decided that is what's important to them. Also one can always choose to be 'decent' at combat and 'decent' with skills if they would prefer to be good at both just not 'exceptional' at one.

I guess what I'm trying to say is its ok to not be 'max' at something and still be considered to have a very high proficiency in a skill-- your just not going to be 'as good' as those who really have gone 'all in' for those skills. We shouldn't limit players who do love focusing on skills by preventing them from being the 'best in their craft' just because their peers don't want to 'sacrifice the equipment slots' to be at that level.

If 'speed changing' gear just to have a higher dice-roll is really that big of a problem (which I'm not really seeing people do this in game), maybe there should be a delay on equip/unequipping (Like that greater restoration spell, 30% 60% 90% ). This would be a super unpopular so I'm not suggesting it for fear of being locked in the Flaming Fist Prison for all eternity by the player-base*laugh*.

By putting limitations and caps on the amount of skill points a player can have (outside of what the game already does for us today) we are just taking another step towards making everyone feel more vanilla and less exciting.

[predrag]

I've been for removing skill stacking on items , or some rebalance of skills , for a long time . So +1 here for the try Zhazz .
It's been especially annoying with some skills .
We really need a way to let characters be masters of a skill or two , without pumping them to 90+ with items .
Even though I'm guilty of putting one point in many skills and itemizing them to the high heavens , among other over-stacking offenses , I'd go for the idea of either removing stacking on items or capping it .

[Ithilan]

I'm rather opposed to this suggestion, I see where it is coming from and I agree with the notion its a bit crazy with the skill values we see some times.

But from a purely mechanical perspective it would need such an extensive alteration to the server I do not see it being viable. If you increase the base damage of requiem by about a x10 modifier, I might support it. But there's too many skills that are tied in to mechanical combat usage atm. that rely on skill stacking items. You would be making every charisma bard unviable with this change nearly. And recent changes to certain monsters size and hit box has already dented their performances a bit id say.

[Goat]

I mean I don't like stacking. I think it's absurd that more then half your skillpoints can be earned by gear alone.

IMO if non stacking was a thing, I'd still raise the non stacking limits to 12-20 points per equipment gear, imo. Something higher, though.. Mechanical issues are nothing. Requiem needs high skills? We adjust the skill. Monsters have high spot, we would adjust them too. All mechanic requirements would be adjusted though if they need to be.

That's just my take. Will it happen, don't know. There would be alot of what ifs that would even have to be looked at first. But we wouldn't just lower skills and hurt peoples fients/etc/etc.

I'm surprised there is so much pushback though. This would help with skills, spotters still going to spot the same, overall vs hiders. Lot's more variation on equipment - and honestly, probably more skills for you int he end that you can focus on instead of having to swap your gear in events before you roll (which is silly imo). Yes there are mechanical things to look at, but it's all possible.

[zhazz]

The ones giving pushback are worried that their builds will suffer. Which is a valid concern. However, as you pointed out Goat, if all skills change at the same time for both PCs, NPCs, and Monsters, then no builds should be negatively impacted. End result being that innate skills matter more, there is no need for gear-swapping, and gearing becomes less restrictive for certain archetypes.

[renshouj]

Yup. It's important to stress that a change like this would never happen in a vacuum - that is, monsters and areas and mechanics would be adjusted accordingly. This specific change (killing skill stacking) is one that has been discussed on and off for years at this point, so staff is very much aware of the things it'd entail.

Ithilan does get it a bit more on the head, though: this change would indeed require extensive alteration to the server, which is in fact the main (sole?) reason it hasn't happened yet as we've been able to change how stealth works for a long time now.

[selhan]

Some of us is just at a point, we really dont like our builds being messed with. Countless rcr's, spamming for DM assistance , equipment change etc.. Im sorry but Im done with all that. I prefer no change. Frustrating to build for skills only to later have to rebuild another way? no thank you and yes its true, some of us just like numbers.

[Snarfy]

Ithilan does get it a bit more on the head, though: this change would indeed require extensive alteration to the server, which is in fact the main (sole?) reason it hasn't happened yet...

"Extensive" is probably a bit of an understatement here. Gargantuan might be more accurate.

While I appreciate the intent of the OP, and the concept of rebalancing skill modifiers, I remain wholly unconvinced that this is as necessary for the server/playerbase as some others are expressing/suggesting. If we were talking about a brand new server, and with a playerbase whose NWN2 experience and familiarity was that of non-stacking skills as the norm, then I would say: go for it.

This, to me, and at this point in the servers time, is kind of like trying to re-invent the wheel for use in outer space.

In summary: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[predrag]

+1 to Goat post too .
Don't get why so much pushback .
Everything can be rebalanced .
Sure , it's a lot of work , but if possible at some point , I'd be quite happy to see more variety in gear choices at least .

[JustAnotherGuy]

In a big way, shifters deal with this already. My druid's spot is over 80 in human form. But as soon as I shift, (into something which should theoretically have even better spot/etc) I go down to about 50-ish.

I am in favor of a change such as this, as long as it is still balanced across the board. In other words, those that are at the top in a skill currently are still at the top (essentially keeping ratios the same, but compressing things).

In reality, having 15+ points in a skill is supposed to mean that you are a master of it. We addressed this a few years ago when we added several new skills, and people were clamoring for more skill points to distribute.

The two main issues I see here are the "PVP" skills (hide/spot, etc) and DM consistency. If my 15 ranks in Lore: Nature really means I'm amazing in that skill in a DM event, I'm fine with having 15-20 points. But if the DC of a check is going to be 40+ just because people can reach that high, then we essentially have to reach that high in order to do anything.

[Ithilan]

It would not just be a mechanical change for all characters that a few alterations in balancing would compensate for.

It is also a massive impact on characters items and how they interact with said builds. If you spend several years finding the equipment and trading or otherwise, a change such as this would be pretty significant in a lot of ways.

I do understand the desire to tone down some of these absurd skill values, but it is a very big change that impacts people in many ways. I agree with Snarfy that it would suit better for a newer server, than one so long established as this.

I would also like to just mention as a small side note, in the OP suggestion and what most of the conversation here seems to revolve around is bloated skill scores in RP and events. But not every one that plays here gets to see or participate in events, but would be equally affected by these changes, as the people who do participate in them. Is this really such a necessary change? Wouldn't it be less impactful to go with a suggestion such as rolls being made to display base scores separately from item or other bonusses? For easier discerning if the player is "fully invested" or dipped in a skill with massive item stacking to bloat the value for this specific scenario.

[zhazz]

There's two issues actually.

1. Inflated skills
It's currently possible for someone to have a skill as high if not higher through items and magic than someone who has dedicated their build to it. The former bypasses the latter by spending (a lot of) gold to enhance the skill. This has the biggest impact during DM events, where the skills truly matter. Though it can also have an impact outside DM events, where two PCs are using skills to augment or guide their RP.

As long as inflating skill via items and consumables is a thing, having a good skill check/rank is effectively IC pay-to-win. The more gold you have, the more you can raise it. That is not fair to the ones who actually dedicate their build to said skill, making real sacrifices to raise their skill high.

2. Limited itemization
Anyone looking to maximize e.g. Sense Motive to use in DM events and/or in RP against someone trying to Bluff, is currently locked into only one amulet piece: Amulet of Wordtwisting. That item doesn't grant any Natural AC. This means that character either has to forego Natural AC from gear entirely, or be 4 lower on their Sense Motive skill than they could have been.

There are a lot of other skills in a similar situation. Epic Cloaked Amulet is e.g. +4 Hide and Move Silently, but only +2 Natural AC. Spotters meanwhile have to choose between Greater Amulet of the Alert (+2 Spot and +3 Natural AC) vs Greater Amulet of the Stalker (+3 Spot and +1 Natural AC).

Because certain characters, whether for RP or mechanical reasons, are forced into picking the highest bonus to skills to stay relevant, they are left with effectively no choice at all in how their equip themselves. That's just bad design in general.

Of course Hide, Move Silently, and Bluff are the most volatile to mess with. Their inherent impact on combat is immense, especially for Sneak Attack characters. Giving them higher AC by opening up more defensive item options could become problematic. Which is why I included a non-combat skill first in these examples (Sense Motive).

Considerations
I think the splitting of the rolls into Innate and Augmented is an interesting proposal. I can see it working well for DM events — provided all DMs agree to favor a high Innate skill over the Augmented if two characters roll the same or similar totals. It will, however, still mean that those who have hoarded skill items to be the best during events may find themselves on par or even lower with this change (same would happen with my original proposal).

My main concern is that the suggestion doesn't address the interaction between players. OOC disagreements are bound to arise over Innate vs Augmented, and which one should be counted. Unwanted drama is a risk. Although if all players agree to follow the example from the DMs, which is to favor Innate, then a bonus to skills no longer has any impact, and they become almost worthless. Except for the combat-related skills.

Which is to say while I like the proposal of splitting rolls into Innate and Augmented, it causes a host of issues that a pure limit on augmentation wouldn't (my original proposal). As pointed out by several already, my proposed change comes with some hefty work, RCRs to update/fix builds, and some months of fine-tuning.

Neither proposed solution is perfect (not even the middle-ground I suggested — see spoiler below). The current system, however, is flawed and poorly designed, as outlined in 1 and 2 above.

Hidden: show

A completely different option could be to keep the stacking of skills, but put a cap on it, which scales with maximum base rank possible. For example 50% (rounded up) of maximum base rank. That would give the following:

Level	Class Skill?	Max Base Rank	Max Magic/Item Bonus
7	Yes	10	5
15	Yes	18	9
30	Yes	33	17
7	No	5	3
15	No	11	6
30	No	17	9

That way magic/items can only get a character so far. There's incentive to get Class Skills, and to invest into skills.

[Atari]

Hello, thought I'd mention some thoughts.

Characters with more innate talent can also buy the same types of gear as characters with less talent. A master of their trade should not be without their tools. Stealth toons should be geared toward stealth, appraisers towards appraising, etc. A DM may not know the correct DC to set something to be, but they also don't need the answer. If a roll is thrown and 2 or 3 people succeed, a DM can make a point of saying they are almost there, close to something or on the verge. A DM can draw in teamwork... a high level character, improperly prepared, teams up with someone less savvy in the art, to use their gear, because they are better prepared, albeit not a true master.

I also think changing gear should require an amount of time and in some cases, the character to be stationary. Lighter armor would take less time than heavier armor and a character must be stationary. Boots, might take 3 rounds to change and require to be stationary, gloves 2 rounds and not stationary, able to attack, defend or other bonuses or penalties could be made.

The thing I don't like is there is zero time to change the gear and zero time to take effect. Once the gear is donned, it should require 1 hour in game, per point modifier to take effect. So +4 gear, would effectively be +0 during the first in game hour it was put on... this way is makes more sense for all the revelations to sink in over some time and there would be less abuse on quick switches for an extra +30 to whatever.

It's not unfair to put more effort into acquiring "master gear" just like it's not unfair to drink potions and gain the benefits casters do. Effort in gaining more gold, should grant more gold, effort in xp should yield more xp and effort in making friends and connections should yield the friendships and networks. In real life, some people go to the gym and diet, others pay for surgery... when the appearance roll is thrown, it doesn't matter how they got there, they both get their bonuses.

[Garnet]

Zhazz
2. Limited itemization
Anyone looking to maximize e.g. Sense Motive to use in DM events and/or in RP against someone trying to Bluff, is currently locked into only one amulet piece: Amulet of Wordtwisting. That item doesn't grant any Natural AC. This means that character either has to forego Natural AC from gear entirely, or be 4 lower on their Sense Motive skill than they could have been.

This is a good thing. Players can make the choice in what's more important to their RP (whether they want more spot, more stealth, or more AC) and can capitalize on that for their playstyle. You don't -have- to have maximum natural AC + skill, you must make a choice and this choice will make you a bit more unique from the next person who chose differently.

Atari
Characters with more innate talent can also buy the same types of gear as characters with less talent. A master of their trade should not be without their tools. Stealth toons should be geared toward stealth, appraisers towards appraising, etc.

Whole heartedly agree here.

I already have a couple of long winded posts text walls here so going to try to keep it short and not respond to every point, just the ones that really struck a chord with me

Taking a step back, one thing that I keep asking myself is 'would a change like this keep people interested and increase the player base, or would it have the opposite effect. I believe a change like this causes harm. Correct me if I'm wrong here (as it was soooo long ago) but 'skill stacking' has worked since 2009. With no changes to the current skill system, the game continues on being the game we played/invested-in over all these years. On the flip side, to make such a big fundamental change it's likely going to trigger a massive wave of what I would feel is a 'forced rcr' for many players that don't want it, and now must adapt.

Also (at least for me) an equipment 'skill cap' is going to completely ruin treasure hunting. As the system is right now, I can hold out hoping that I'm going to find some +3/4 skill item that I can add to my character which keeps me excited every time I open that chest. If I was capped at '+4 skill bonus for equipment', and I already have 1) +4 item of that skill, then that excitement is completely gone unless we are going to add +5,+6,+7,+8,+9 etc.

This sort of change feels like a way for 'combat focused characters' to have the same skills as 'RP focused skill-based' characters without them having to make sacrifices. Being the broken record that I have become in this thread... I'm going to reiterate that its "OK" to have less skills than someone who has dedicated their whole character/profession to those skills, just like its okay for those players to be lacking at combat.

Because of the way the game works, the only way we have to represent a -true- dedication to a craft/profession is through skill stacking on equipment. It's by no means a perfect system without it's flaws, but by removing it we destroy that style of play unless we have another way to represent long term investment/profession growth.

[Goat]

Also (at least for me) an equipment 'skill cap' is going to completely ruin treasure hunting. As the system is right now, I can hold out hoping that I'm going to find some +3/4 skill item that I can add to my character which keeps me excited every time I open that chest. If I was capped at '+4 skill bonus for equipment', and I already have 1) +4 item of that skill, then that excitement is completely gone unless we are going to add +5,+6,+7,+8,+9 etc.

As I pointed out - you'd increase the cap a good deal if you do this. +4 isn't enough. x3-x4 or even x5 that and that's what I'd be looking at. If it wasn't to be adjusted, I wouldn't bother doing it.

Some of us is just at a point, we really dont like our builds being messed with. Countless rcr's, spamming for DM assistance , equipment change etc.. Im sorry but Im done with all that. I prefer no change. Frustrating to build for skills only to later have to rebuild another way? no thank you and yes its true, some of us just like numbers.

Things get changed for the better in the long run. This isn't an argument that you enjoy numbers. I get it - but all you're doing is shooting yourself in the foot by needing 'all stealth gear', 'all rp gear'. Etc. If the cap right now is Let's say 96 Hide, and the Spot is capped at 96 Spot - Then there is absolutely no difference mechanical wise if both lost -25 due to stacking not existing.

Logically in RP but non-DM scenarios people with spot gear are equipping that gear on at the same 'moments' when sneakers are sneaking around trying to milk information. And this change isn't going to suddenly make people who have no skill points in spot be able to find better just by the gear alone. I'd say that currently the system allows that MORE, because EVERYONE and ANYONE can beef up your spot to max amount, even if you don't invest in it. I'm pretty sure there would be less people spotting you - not more.

There are issues for CERTAIN feats that use skills, but these can be inline adjusted. The functionality of certain things can still function as they do now bar any abusable things at the moment. There ain't much of that though from what I can tell.

--

Another problem that I won't touch unless this changes is how spot vs search work. Search mode checking 5 times a second is insane. The 1d20 dice roll on top of your SPOT vs HIDE skill is absolutely pointless currently. Currently if you have 100 hide, and they have 80 spot, they'd need a nat 20 to see you. This is a 5% per chance. However because it's so quick, you're looking at in the first second, being found with a 22.62% chance. Within 5 seconds, its 72.26%. Within 10 seconds, its 92.31%.

I'm not sure what the times should be - it 'does' need to be higher in search mode because of how this game works. But the above make it so if you are even one point higher - you're spotted pretty much instantly. But with current scaling - it'll stay, because the scaling is silly right now..