The Balance of Power

[Tsidkenu]

I am absolutely sure it's getting worked one... but I remember when we started talking about crafting in.... 2010? Yeah, 2010 I think. I am... wary of getting hopes too high or believing I would be able to afford the gold cost when it eventually is put in.

Here's a quote from the Master to sate your fears, Rags:

Subject: Enchanting?!

Its not entirely finished. The enchanting works but the gold and slot costs are still being adjusted. The mechanic also needs some user-friendliness adjustments.

Because it went live we restricted it to QC use for now. That limitation can very quickly be switched off once its done. No download-update required.

Its cool for players to see that it exists, and that its incoming. I imagine that it gives something to look forward to, and you can take the spells in anticipation.
Last line edited for emphasis!

I personally have already RCRed Aeili to now have the Craft Wondrous Items feat in anticipation

[Beachgamer]

A little off topic, but this thread has inspired me to go for an evil bent as well. Doing some research on current guilds and coming up with build and character concept but i hope to contribute to this as well.

[Moltrazahn]

A little off topic, but this thread has inspired me to go for an evil bent as well. Doing some research on current guilds and coming up with build and character concept but i hope to contribute to this as well.

Remember, like it says on the post in the Nexus, not all guilds appear on the Forum(As some are secretive or illusive). I've played here since 2009, and where I know of a good deal, I am 100% that im still missing out on some of these illusive and enigmatic guilds out there xD. However i'd ague your doing the right thing. Make a character, join a guild and see where it leads you! There are litteral tons of surprises and fun to be had once your either brought inn or stumble upon some of the servers illusive few (the good and the bad respectively)

[Steve]

But if we turn the tables around, do people truly remember great heroes when they stop playing? Does the persistent world we RP in remember them?

Good point.

Of the top of my head, in-game, there are:

- Shrine to Billy by the FAI, recognizing PCs that contributed up the destruction of the Temple of Bhaal.
- Coat of Arms by the entrance to the FAI tavern
- 2 shrines in Baldur's Gate in remembrance to those that fought against the Undead Army.
- 1 statue in Nashkel for the rebuilding of the town.

Do players remember heroes? Probably the old guard of the Server do. Do PCs remember heroes? Depends...or, as Karond says "Heroes are so plentiful on the Sword Coast, they have become commonplace."

But the actual Sword Coast does, as evidenced by my incomplete list(to a point).

It does beg a further question: is past villain RP memorable, for Characters? Has past villain RP achieved anything of merit, anything lasting, world changing?

The summoning of Tiamat in the Palace District...the area fully recovered and all scars healed? Seems so. Triel? Epic fail for many (on both sides of the fence). Is there any true wariness or fear of assassins or a Guild of them? Does the magic of the Thayan Enclave truly sit above all other arcane factions...and does that power provide influence? Something few are able to forget?

But let us forget about the Big Picture, for the moment. Can we talk about setting up a evil RP support system that exists for Characters to "grow" in, from Level 1 until Level 30, where during this "lifetime," such a Character may gain a rank, gain prestige, gain IG remembrance?

I think an OOC known system of possibilities would greatly balance out the "power," as well, create fun for Players with Evil PCs...that is, of course, if one believes RPing evil is actually fun, and not something Players choose to do in order to exercise their frustrations, or worse.

[Akroma666]

I am really going to have to agree with Steve again. I have never logged in as a villian to have a DM provide an event that wasn't already planned. I have however had DMS log in to hang me, provide a guard to crush my ego and dreams, and worst of all a guard to cut me down or jail me. I mean.. How pathetic is our heroes or evildoers if they can't take a single guard or watchman. I feel that if a DM got on and for example had a vampire intice Lilliana to aid him in finding a new source of food.. I would be ecstatic! An unplanned event that is just something a DM wants to do for evil would be a welcomed surprise.

To add to thids, how many of you remember my necromancer Akroma.. And his cult? Or Sabel his partner? I imagine not many at this point and his rise of power was about 2-3 years ago. Another baddie forgotten. I don't want a statue.. But some memorable events and actions that leave a lingering effect.. That would sure be neat.

[Planehopper]

I remember Sabel. I don't recall Akroma.

The Red Wizards. For god's sake they have a tower in BG. A town a Red Wizard attacked a year or two prior.

The Cult of the Dragon had significant impact, but kept identities hidden (right? I wasn't here for that one, but have heard about it OOC and IC).

Three quick examples. The common denominator here is that they had a lot of player RP going, inclusive to many, prior to the DM involvement.

You have to realize that some of it is always going to be OOC issues. No one is completely impartial. You call out DM actions and complain on the forums, it can be fairly demotivating for some DMs.

[Akroma666]

I don't think were calling anyone out.. Were just begging for attention. I don't think evil wants to be the red headed step child. We want to be allowed to play with the other kids too. My intentions here is to hopefully get a couple DMS to show more love to the evil side of the coin and do mini or major events with some guidance.
Make a fence who needs us to deliver goods or collect something?
A vampire or devil who wants us to complete a task for their master.
A lost drow who can't find her way back underground.
A necromancer who needs bodies..
Something we can do to get involved and not feel like were playing PvE by ourselves or our limited companions.

[Planehopper]

Quests would be a good starting point probably. I think that would be more equitable than asking for increase DM time (when there really is a dearth of that for some folks of all alignments).

Soubar's quests are much more in this vein. Have you played there? They are more morally vague than some of the BG quests.

[DM Theophanies]

I am really going to have to agree with Steve again. I have never logged in as a villian to have a DM provide an event that wasn't already planned. I have however had DMS log in to hang me, provide a guard to crush my ego and dreams, and worst of all a guard to cut me down or jail me. I mean.. How pathetic is our heroes or evildoers if they can't take a single guard or watchman.

First off, there are events for the evil side. Perhaps in the short time you have returned you have not seen one but they are running. I've even ordered and pushed a few of them forward myself.

Secondly, I have concerns with a pattern of behavior that requires a DM to log in and intervene with a guard repeatedly. Godmodding NPC's is a very real issue and a serious rule violation. Alignment is not an excuse to ignore rules. If you want to do things that would require a guard's reaction, it is appropriate to set things up with the DM team previously. You might also find if given time, it would be more enjoyable as it gives us time to talk and plan, rather than forcing a kene jerk reaction.

[DM Ditto]

I wanted to say, as a response to this, that it would probably be beneficial to the Player(s) to inform them—either via OOC or some generate IC means—that they are "making a difference," and that it is being recognized.

That is one of the functions of the DM threads in the Elfsong Tavern subforum.

Okay, let's do a Forum search in the Elfsong Tavern for Miranda. To quote Bernie Sanders: "...der ain't none!"

Let's do a Forum Search under Dungeon Master's Realm. Guess what? Only OOC-list oriented or "buddy" references.

It may be that the DM team in charge during that event did not record Miranda's deeds post-event. It may also be that the entry was eliminated during the forum purge. It could be from other causes.

As far as I am aware, the current team has been keeping up with referring events when it is ICly plausible to make a rumor post about it. Sometimes it is not, and thus nothing is said as it would be implausible to, but the involved players know, and the DM team knows, and while the consequences may not be apparent now, they may very well be later in a seemingly unrelated fashion.

The dots are there, and they can be connected, if you know to look for them.

What is the role of the DM, in the game of D&D? In my humble opinion, it is to reflect the World, the game environment, for the Player. The DM controls the color of the grass to the will of the Gods. Another way to say it is, especially on BGTSCC: the DMs have the power to tell the Player how much power the Player Character has. What the DMs tell the Player is determined by the actions that the Player manifests in the Game World the DMs control.

But any way you look at this, the Dungeon Master has more control, more power, more abilities, more rights for determination.

So to tie it back into the last quote from Ditto above: where is the Region where the great villian took control and governed the lands and subjected it to Her form of civilization, and the bards write and perform songs to praise Her name, because... there are guards in the corner of every tavern and the bardess wishes to gain favor—and a few coin—via praise?

Yes, the DM has power, not only in their role but also in determining the power a player would have. However, it is also the DM's responsibility to allow player freedom within the game world, and the DM is encouraged to give player agency when possible.

I find it curious that you failed to recognize that my example of one possible reason why you do not hear people singing a villain's praises in an opposite-aligned tavern was just that - an example. There is no need for guards when the patrons themselves are perfectly capable of throwing the offending bard out - and a few of those patrons may very well be more than capable of that role, given the proclivity of adventurers to gather in bars.

Are you telling me that Darkhold has no bards there for officer entertainment? No soldier with a poetic soul that writes spirited missives to the old Darklord, who through actions and deeds, has given all ranks in the Zhentarim a will to succeed, empowered desire for MORE POWER?!?!

Or, in contrast: where is the Bard that write the metaphoric poem that both details the "truth" of the great villians reign and criticizes the evil power that sits upon the throne?

I am reasonably certain that Darkhold, given its structure, would have minstrels that sing of their deeds, and it would be one of the ideal places for evil-minded players to share tales of villainous glory among each other.

However, it does return to the issue of willing player initiative, as it is a matter more suited to players than DMs.

Do you not see because of limited vision? Above is the unfortunate, typical response from the DM Team: this is a Player issue.

Because it is.

It is on the onus of the player to promote past character deeds if they so wish to, not on the DM. DMs may promote at their discretion, and usually following a player event of sufficient impact to warrant the IC promotion, but if you want to initiate awareness of heroes and villains, then that is a player issue to start and push.

How many times do Players need to say this: those that play Evil-aligned PCs feel hampered. They feel ignored. They perceive a sandbox that favors the good-aligned PCs, Guild and Factions. They are NOT getting good direction, necessary support and...the most important, being offered direct possibilities by the DM Team, to take up and run with. Okay, the above is a minor generalization about "how all players of evil PCs feel"...because some like BMD seem rather content with themselves.

Put another way: Players of evil PCs want more possibilities. As the DMs are the embodiment of the World those PCs exist in, then what does it take to get the DMs to provide more avenues for the Players to work within?

Ask us.

DMs are aware that not every player is aware of server/FR lore, and we encourage those players to ask the DM team to see what avenues they can pursue towards their stated goal. We are willing to promote player initiative, offer possible hooks to start that initiative, and give advice and alternate courses of action if the initial avenue of approach is too difficult.

If we refuse requests outright, it is because the request requires a number of intermediate steps that likely require DM involvement in order to be possible to execute. As I have mentioned in my first post in this thread, one cause of event requests falling through is players requesting for major events without making the preparations necessary to make the request possible, let alone succeed at it. Players may want to be Albert Wesker, the Joker, or any other supervillain you can think of, but those villains had to get there, and acquire their power, from somewhere.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step, but you cannot call it a journey if you crossed those thousand miles with a single teleport. (And unless you've seen the place at least once, you would not even be in the same area if you teleported there, if you managed to avoid a mishap.)

I believe the DM Team wants to help. Even in this thread, from Theophanies and Dialectic and Pun Pun, there is comment on the issue, and by that alone, there is some perceivable consideration being done by the Team (and I can only hope and assume more being done behind the Veil).

To reiterate once again: the Game World, the Sword Coast, the Baldur's Gate region—what the DMs control and embody in the context of the game D&D—does not currently have much in terms of reflection of the importance of Evil, nor does it in any way celebrate it nor guide it to further development.

Another way to say it is: Players and their PCs are pretty much left on their own. As Ditto said: do not "...hope that a DM will take the initiative to do so." Fair enough. How about some help then? And no, submitting Player Requests is not the way. We're asking for the DM Team to generate more. And then, the onus is on the Players of the Evil PCs to pick it up, and make something of it.

Cheers.

Yes, we want to help, and we do. Players and PCs are left alone because we prefer to promote player agency; time and time again, I have been impressed and surprised at playerside creativity, and to me, that is half the fun of being a DM - seeing what players can think and do within the rules of the game to get themselves out of a problem, or to achieve a seemingly impossible goal. To interfere is to stifle that player agency.

The DM team can generate hooks and guide players to some of them, but it is ultimately up to the players to decide if they wish to bite.

[DM Dialectic]

There are some excellent evil characters running around this server currently. Some are even causing more chaos than they probably even realize now, and they are not characters that I have ever seen in a PvP conflict. But they are doing some damage that will eventually cause others adversity. But if you look abck at the samples of great villains on this server, this kind of stuff is why they are regarded as such.

I wanted to say, as a response to this, that it would probably be beneficial to the Player(s) to inform them—either via OOC or some generate IC means—that they are "making a difference," and that it is being recognized.

Causing Law & Order is often seen/heard in many forms—from in-game changes to Forum rumor threads and between-Character RP. But I think there is a dearth of reference(s) to when and how evil-aligned PCs are functioning, as is stated above: doing damage and causing adversity.

Not all of the server's "greatest villains" are spoken of in bardic song or have monuments in their honor, to their actions. Or maybe I'm wrong on this and I just don't know where to find it?

It's not like there is some statue of Eliphas Valkarian in Darkhold, from which a PC—and thus a Player—can learn from, aspire to. lol. I had to laugh writing that....

Is it strange or breaking some "fourth wall" for DMs to give a shout out to PCs of the Evil Kind, that are making headway? Is it strange or just implausible that PCs find ways to, in-character, celebrate the Evil that has paved a way forward?

Maybe that is also an issue yet-to-be-discussed in this thread: how we as Players and DMs fail to honor and celebrate the past, what has gone on before us, and how quickly we forget or identify a sense of failure, because we all have a short-sighted vision on Server history?!?

//As a DM team, we strive to make a public RP display of any IC PC actions that permanently or significantly affect the world, metagaming concerns mitigating this as applicable. As one recent example, did you maybe miss the Zhentarim watchtower and Outriders patrol that was added to the wilds near Corm Orp in game and announced as a rumor on the forums (which was added in game because of Zhentarim PC initiative that sprung from a well planned and executed Zhentarim PC player request and follow up RP)?

Subject: Intrigues of the Sword Coast (Player/DM IC RP)

Corm Orpian-Darkhold Cooperation

Rumors say that patrols of Zhentarim Outrider cavalry continue in the areas nearby Corm Orp. A Zhentarim Outrider camp it can be confirmed by any local traveler has indeed been constructed in the vicinity complete with watch tower waving the flag and seal of the Zhentarim.

It is not clear in gossip if the arrangement has yet been established as permanent or not or if negotiations between Corm Orp and Darkhold on a more long-term relationship as such have yet occurred.

//

[sweetlikesplenda]

Just throwing this out there.

If Players of Evil aligned PCs feel they don't get the love that Good aligned PCs get, then maybe take some stock in what the DMs are saying, given their insight from "Behind the curtain". Instead of feeling neglected, picked on, ignored, or any other reason to hold on to this anger/frustration/what ever you are feeling, let's all (And by that I mean all the players on the server) try to help each other out.

If you feel like you would want to be involved in some RP that 'seems' focused solely around goodies, then send a tell/PM to the Players of the Good aligned PC explaining some of your evil aligned PCs background and how you feel they could be invovled (This could be to thwart it all together, work with the goodies only to stab them in the back at the last moment and take the power for yourself, just play a minor part to give the goodies something else to fight against), and try to get involved in the RP.

When I first started paying NWN like 9 years ago or whatever, I was on a NWN1 server my brother got me involved with. At the time the server was primarily Good aligned. My brother recognized a lack of evil and sent out a call on the forums with the title "Save our bad guys". the community really came together shortly after and started working together good and bad to help the stories on the server come more to life.

Good needs bad to have something to do. Let's face it, fighting spawns all day gets boring reeeeealy fast. And bad doesn't want to just get a kick in the teeth every time they do anything. This thread seems about bad and good, but the neutrals can take advantage of either side, as the stories go along, jumping on the wagon of those with the advantage. So, let's work together. Instead of the DMs abandoning team good to meet the requests of those posting in this thread towards team bad, let's just start from where we are and work to tell a shared story.

My advice to evil players (And please, don't just berate me and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about or give me the old 'Ive already done this', because I once lead a good aligned guild for a year and a half or so and never once received a PM asking how team evil and my guild could come together to tell a fun story. Even though I sent out PMs asking members of team bad if we could come together and never got any traction.), is this; reach out with your ideas to players of good aligned people. Something along the lines of "Hey! I saw a post in your RP thread about your group doing ___. I was thinking that my PC/Group/Guild could get involved to give you all a little spice to your RP by doing ___."

From my personal observations, I think one of the problems with the server is a lack of trust among players. There have been times where both good and evil have been meta-gamed, causing both evil and good to sit in their own guild halls and plot, without working together. I know it can be hard to get over feelings of mistrust, but the server would really benefit from more cooperation.

On the NWN 1 server I played on I had my main there (Also my main here just reincarnated here) come up with some RP to help out a fortress that needed supplies. A player of an evil aligned PC sent me a PM asking if he could get involved to thwart me. I gave him the thumbs up, and after several months of RP I ended taking a kick in the teeth to my PC (I mean, this little bit of RP I wanted to generate turned in to his wife being kidnapped, and his plans to send some goods to a fort were burned, and he got his butt handed to him). But, I didn't interrupt the RP that was developing, I just took the 'loss' and accepted that I wont always 'win'. We had a great time with it and RPd for years after a feud from the RP.

I feel like both good and bad need to accept that they will not win every time. There are times their character needs to 'fall' to learn something and grow.

Sorry for the long reply! But, I will offer my goodie-two-shoe PC to evil aligned PCs if they would like to get involved in some RP. I'm always down to share a story and even 'lose' if the RP goes that way (But, I will play him like he would and not just take anything lying down for the sake of letting someone else feel a winner). I feel like we could all get more "DM attention" if we all played together more (Not that I log in to get DM attention, ever. because even as a good aligned PC, I very rarely get DM attention especially not on an individual level).

Thanks for sticking through and reading!

[NegInfinity]

I have however had DMS log in to hang me, provide a guard to crush my ego and dreams, and worst of all a guard to cut me down or jail me. I mean.. How pathetic is our heroes or evildoers if they can't take a single guard or watchman.

You know, neither good nor evil deserves to have their dreams fullfilled, by default. Ultimately all will be forgotten. If you managed to get yourself hanged or get guard attention, that's consequences of your character's actions. Plan better next time or enjoy the consequences.

I also do remember random encounters with DM controlled evil characters that tried to mess with mine..

Or Sabel his partner?

I met sabel before her untimely demise. Not Akroma. Nobody ever mentioned him around me. Even Sabel.

don't want a statue..

But you're asking for it.

In essence your post sounds like you want your character to win and become important. That's a tall call that requires a long, dedicated roleplaying. And with this kind of wish you'll have hard time on the server no matter what alignment you play, because you most likely will be unable to fullfill them - because of the nature of the world. Even people that played same character for years are often not recognized, and that's alright.

If you want enjoyable time, aim lower. DM Galatea says reasonable thing. Try something smaller. Concentrate on your character's story, instead of aiming at statues and world domination right away. There's a long road to long lasting impact. It takes time for a typical "cartoon villain" to ammass wealth and manpower to finally build that Device Of Doom... except fiction stories conveniently skip the hard part of the journey, but here you'll have to play it.

In my experience, DM team is responsive to requests. If all the responses you ever got was guard intervention and hanging, well, that's result of your actions. Accept the hanging and enjoy it. Because the only time when someone arrested my character, someone else managed to mess up the event (pvp rule breach) to the point where it had to be retconned completely, affecting at least dozen people.

[Karond]

I wonder if any character is truly famous here. I have my doubts, especially regarding actions and not just sheer perseverance and presence for many years. Ask a dozen random characters or even players and its doubtful a single name will come up twice as reknown for famous deeds. All is forgotten, everyone replaced

[Akroma666]

I wonder if any character is truly famous here. I have my doubts, especially regarding actions and not just sheer perseverance and presence for many years. Ask a dozen random characters or even players and its doubtful a single name will come up twice as reknown for famous deeds. All is forgotten, everyone replaced

I will never forget Thaydren (so) and his patrolling of the FAI.. No idea what happened to that guy.. But off topic sorries..