Update on Open question to team evil/morally questionable

[Tekill]

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I'll preface my thoughts by saying I play on Team Neutral, while admitting that many of Team Neutral leans heavily in favor of Team Good.

I'll start though, with talking about "who is the antagonist". The antagonist in a PW is the one who is actively engaged in stopping or slowing another's plans, or to stir up trouble for them. If Team Good goes out of their way to foil the plans of Team Evil, then they become the antagonists; think of the recent incident at the Boarskyre Bridge. In my opinion, the paladins who showed up to put a stop to things were the antagonists in this scenario.

To follow this up, the role of antagonist usually falls to Team Evil on this server, as they are usually the ones who are plotting and scheming, and thus are the "aggressors" in plots (which I think is a better descriptor rather than antagonist, anyway.) On a PW, the people who are doing the aggressing (or trying to change the status quo) should be at the disadvantage. At the bridge incident, the Paladins paid a heavy cost; they were the aggressors and had an uphill climb to accomplish what they wanted. In contrast, at the battle between Nashkel/Auril, the Aurilites were the clear aggressors, and should face a much harder time to win (and thus change the status quo).

Now, as to the state of playing evil on the server, what I have personally seen (and this is only my opinion based upon my experience) is that we have a few long term Team Evil players who deserve to be rewarded for their long term efforts. However, I would estimate that roughly 2/3 people on team evil that I run across are "moustache twirling villains" who deserve to lose, all the time. I know of a handful of people who have been around for a bit now who keep making evil toons, and they want to upset the status quo, but are trying to do such in trollish ways that only serve to annoy team good, team neutral, and likely team evil. (Emmanuel once ICly said about one such toon, "They are such an idiot and making the Cyricists look so bad that I'm surprised they haven't killed him themselves yet.") These types of efforts shouldn't be rewarded or encouraged. In fact, some of the things these toons have claimed to have done recently I have ICly brushed off with my toon saying, "It's not possible", and me OOCly explaining to people that it was indeed impossible for them to have done what they said.

As far as reward, I'm all for Team Evil being given a chance to win, if they would indeed have a chance to win. There's many factors to be taken into account to make this happen, though. Firstly, is that I still hold that the person/guild/team who wishes to change the status quo should have the success rate stacked against them. Secondly, invested players (player count as well as RP done) and RP should be taken into account. Then we must consider the actual possibility per lore/situation, weighed against the tactics of the aggressor.

In short, fights aren't even. If my toon decided to march on Darkhold and destroy it because I figured only Tarina was there, it shouldn't be a one-on-one. I should absolutely lose. The same goes for so much more. Neither team good nor team evil defends in a vacuum. But it's very likely that they attack in a vacuum. In other words, if one guild in team good marches upon Darkhold, Darkhold likely has lots of Zhentarim allies to help them defend. But it's not likely that Baldur's Gate and the entire Lord's Alliance would step in to help the assault. There should be a high likelihood of the aggressors losing.

I wanted to chime in on this, as I do think this very much highlights the reason playing evil here may feel rough/unrewarding at times. Years ago when I played on Dalelands, there was very much a constant and similar discussion/issue but reversed. For a long time Evil was the status quo of Dalelands and the good folks constantly were upset that they couldnt make any real impact on that. It was a topic that, much like here, sparked some large exoduses of players at times and was a huge issue. My point is, the issue isnt "Team Evil vs Team Good" (hate those terms...), it's that having a status quo that's set in stone is not a good thing.

The status quo, while resilient should still be flexible. If an organization works their butts off over an extended period of time to establish something that breaks the status quo, those efforts should be rewarded. It just happens that our status quo on the surface tends to heavily lean towards Good here which makes it feel like most decisions are weighted towards a Good outcome.

Getting away from the Good/Evil sides of things, I personally think there's a greater issue, and that's a general fear of letting players have true agency and authority. Let player characters become Mayors of towns, captains of the Fist, that sort of thing. Our status quo is ultimately controlled by NPCs (which in turn gets obviously pinned on DMs) who set the rules/laws, etc. When NPCs control all real authority it becomes stagnant, if someone wants to become Mayor of Beregost and go full blown corrupt? Let them. If a group plots the assassination of Mags to take control, let them do it (even if it may be a poor decision on their part). Letting players have more agency/authority on how the setting functions would certainly breed more interesting RP opportunities out there.

Diversity makes things interesting, stagnation makes things boring.
(Barry just took 10d6 psychic damage from me saying that...)

Yeah, interesting perspective - I think that would be a good solution.
In a D&D P&P campaign the DM has such a status quo. They add controls to their group of players as a way to structure the story and and plots they want to create for the players. Narrowing options on what the group can be/do, makes the personalized events go smoother.
But this server is more like a sandbox, expanded way outside the confines of a single party sitting around table in the basement of someones house. Trying to enforce this status quo in BGTSCC make it appear that you are catering to one group and leaving the other groups out.
So removing these controls would be a logical solution because it would be fair to the entire community and not just a certain demographic.
But of course the next problem for DMs is, how do we control these 'status quo breakers' that want to 'empire build'

One idea:
What if these empire builders had to consistently post a sort of constant Biography of their successes and failures, justifying their action regularly on the post. That drow bard I referenced did the same thing. She would post these events and plots and schemes after they happened so it would not get metagamed. But she really took time to examine the smallest action do took and what the results were.

This idea of forcing anyone who wants to empire build or breach the status quo, to post regularly on it will be thoroughly examining their actions under the view of their peers. Any pvp troll drama queen/king griefer would be easily exposed and generally do not have the patience to consistently report on their crappy behavior.

This would also encourage story telling and create a clear record of activity that other players and more importantly DM's can easily reference.

These players would still be required to make DM requests. And as it is now it is easier when they do so as a part of a faction.

But this idea could allow Admin to remove prejudiced controls that keep the status quo going while adding a creative new control that fosters RP!

[InTheFlesh]

I too oppose the Status Quo

[Aspect of Sorrow]

Let player characters become Mayors of towns, captains of the Fist, that sort of thing.

Some limits need to be made such that players don't sit on such positions with very little activity, preventing others from being able to move through that space.

[Grendunor]

Let player characters become Mayors of towns, captains of the Fist, that sort of thing.

Some limits need to be made such that players don't sit on such positions with very little activity, preventing others from being able to move through that space.

Always within limits my guy

[selhan]

Im just in awe reading that past couple of pages...

In my OWN opinion I just gonna say, from what I know and from what I see and from what I hear..combined...theres ALL KINDS OF TEAM EVIL OUT THERE!..SIX IN FACT! if Im counting, but the problem with a "Successful Evil Empire"..is the many of those teams evils cant even see eye to eye with each other, they speak of all the determination in the world, but "effort" output drizzles.

3 group of them have a good active amount of player members

Only 2/6 of them actively making RP gains.

Hell Team Neutral is doing a fine job doing their thing.

I wont put blame on DM's only because I for one know for a damn fact, I dont need to be in each and every DM event to progress in anything. I myself didnt even start dabbling in the word of DM's until a year ago. DM's know where the activity is at, DM's sees the ones trying or putting in the effort. But at the same time, DM"s are at their own pace, for they got a RL too and they are players as well. Some ppl really tend to neglect that and I have seen it. I mean just think about it. A DM became a DM cause they wanted to DM events, plots, etc. Having the ability to control more than one character, give players a story , journey, quest ,adventure to play through. I REALLY Doubt DM's like sitting behind the screen tackling complaints and drama all the time. It puts them in a spot at most times that they rather not be in. And what does it do? sinks their motivation.

I know some PC's that are some down right Evil SOB's, an they aint walking around with an army. It be scary if they did, not because of how threatening they could become, but at the going rate of how ppl drop complaints on others for misunderstanding or cause they dont like how someone rp's, we be lucky to even have AFK'ers on server.

But wot do i know, I rp a bartender thats doing what ever I can to bring activity in a "Village". Not a team...ijs...

[DaloLorn]

Let player characters become Mayors of towns, captains of the Fist, that sort of thing.

Some limits need to be made such that players don't sit on such positions with very little activity, preventing others from being able to move through that space.

For my part, I'd welcome challenges to Selmiyeritar's position in Naudal.

1. It's RP fodder for me: Forcing her to be more than a background NPC prolongs Lin's lifespan as a character.
2. It means someone actually cares about this backwater outpost they live in, which probably means her efforts as the house's First Blade and later matron have not been in vain.
3. Win or lose, conflict, change, and attempted change all keep the world moving. I very much do not want to fall into the historic pattern of guild leaders clinging to their power for the sole purpose of stonewalling anyone else who wants to fill the void created by their inactivity.

[Rain]

Hey, so, I didn't mean to cause any drama, but seeing that we're so heated I think it was a good idea. Clearly, we have a lot to say. Maybe if we hosted some regular talks with Staff to hear us out, that would help? Just throwing it out there.

It’s been tried and tried and tried. Feel free to make an attempt but there is a reason this topic has so much heat. Some of those on Team Evil have tried to make amends with staff for years but are often put on deaf ears or told they are being heard yet years later the same issues from years ago are still being exclaimed.

It’s a combination of alot of what has been said on this thread. Usually the staff is pushed out of certain affairs in RP by players because staff like to make even the smallest RP decisions a Corporate mess and tell people to wait months for the tiniest request.

Additionally as it’s already been said, if you’ve actually put time into the evil side of the server unless you play under one of the DM supervised factions/guilds you get nothing of substance done ever. People don’t want to be railroaded into a certain RP decision because the DM’s want the excuse to have the final say in RP (which is to be believed why MAG still exists despite plenty of pushback against her design)

I made a statement 4 years ago and I still find it holds true today: “There is a CAP on how evil you can be on this server, there is no CAP on how good you can be.”

[Steve]

Well, in my opinion, there has to be a cap on certain RP because of Canon Lore continuity.

That said, I’ve also voiced an opinion that it might be best for BGTSCC to just go custom Lore from here on out, thus actually giving Players AND DMs greater ability to shift the sands in this box, as story building would dictate.

Any takers?!?

[Tekill]

Well, in my opinion, there has to be a cap on certain RP because of Canon Lore continuity.

That said, I’ve also voiced an opinion that it might be best for BGTSCC to just go custom Lore from here on out, thus actually giving Players AND DMs greater ability to shift the sands in this box, as story building would dictate.

Any takers?!?

Seems a bit Straw Man to say there is a cap on evil RP because there is a cap on canon RP. Can you give examples of RP caps due to certain Lore, that should not exist?
I personally do not feel hindered by the lore- actually, the opposite. Just because its not written down as canon does not mean we necessarily cant do something. Nobody said we cant create our own custom lore, as long as it does not conflict with canon. Its not difficult. And we already bent the rules on canon.

I would say that Discussions on making changes to lore is to me a different discussion. But, I think it does apply to the discussion to change status quo itself- which may just also be a different discussion- than thoughts on evil

If I know now, that I can not achieve my goals in a significant way because it is not what is wanted by those designing the world I am trying to achieve my goals in, then I will not do it. And I think that is what is discouraging players of evil/morally questionable perspectives. They are trying, then they find out after the fact, that it was impossible all along.

Good have the playing field set up for them already in a way because they just have to wait until the bad stuff happens- then they can go into action. The problems happen for team good, when they make efforts to change the status quo to try to make the world a better place. But even then the status quo is more inline with players that want to make the world a better place than players that want to make the world a worse place.

Neutral - simply have to wait until an opportunity arises when they can pick a side or an opportunity arises so they can oppose a side. Again if they try to restore a balance that is not part of the status quo - they face the same problems as Good and Evil. Actually, it seems to be a bit of a trap for players RPing neutral to mistake the status quo with this balance they are always yacking about.

TLDR - AsuraKing is right. Lawful, Chaotic, Neutral, Good, Evil all have the same problem. Team Evil may have just suffered the most from it. But don't blame lore because it enhances creativity more than it hinders it. Does someone want start a Change Status Quo Thread?

[selhan]

Custom lore opens the door for a Massive mess. - Just my Opinion

A cap to Good and Evil should be a thing but limited only to Lore events- Just my opinion

Example- During the Ending of The Time of Troubles, it would be really "Off Putting" if players were able to jump into the fray and kill Bhaal themselves / or finding and turning in the Tablets of Fate themselves. Player Gods? Meh dont think so. But if Team Evil was able to have fun in between in regards to that event that wouldnt change what takes place in lore, that be fine in my view. Like something I manage to do within the Time of Troubles. Which I can not detail due to the possibility of Meta.

Not Sure if DM's here do it, but I think would could help with somethings are the "What are the Options Intelligent Rolls" Players time to time do get stuck in a decision making. Thus slows progress. If they appear so, allow them to roll Intelligence and if success, lay out the different options available and then allow them to choose one.

I've recently been in alot of RP with the Myrkulites and Bhaalist. ((The servers most wanted lol)) . And dont mistaken me, Im not trying to degrade them or anything like that. But I found it very surprising that their knowledge in Lore to the Time line was very lacking. So I believed alot of their previous actions where due to that. For those that know me, know Im a community player. I rather gain as much players as possible on our server and try to teach them to be better rp'ers. So I have been working with these guys, teaching them how to look up lore and information around their Rp. There has been some gaining improvement. Hell some are even starting to use the forums. But in regards to their Rp theres some limitations as to what can be done due to Lore. However, it doesnt stop them from trying to make attempts. Dm's could easily weave something for them without allowing them to alter the results of the Time Line. - Just my Opinion

Truth is also, alot of Team good and evil do make some of the biggest mistakes in choices, I surely have. And in my experience some DM's will lay out a chance for me to correct my mistake, while other DM's are stern in the mistake made. (Pick your DM like you pick your drink).
But honestly its not that hard really. If your playing a down right evil SOB, and have gathered the resources for a Keep and Army, THAT is gain. If you plan to Storm the city of Baldurs with your army of 300's your going to fail. If you storm and raid some DM created village nearby thats not listed in Lore, congratz you've now become a successful tyrant. "Thinking" is how worlds were created. A band of Assassins is not gonna take out a Keep of highly trained and equip soldiers. Your set to fail. A band of Assassin taking out precise targets that could alter the course of a war due to their death is where they can succeed in.

"MAG still exists despite plenty of pushback against her design"

Volo's Guid-

Soubar- This small trail town is located on the Trade Way south of Boareskyr Bridge. Often raided by goblinkin and bugbears, it’s a summer tent town that shrinks to an armed outpost in winter. At its heart is the old stone ruin of a temple or abbey of Bane, known as the Black Abbey. Some folk believe it was once sacred to another god and was only seized by worshipers of Bane briefly. The ruins have yielded stones to build the rest of Soubar.

What remains of the ruins are home to a mysterious woman known only as Mag, who runs a tavern called the Winding Way in them. The word around the Coast is that Mag was once a priestess. Some say she abandoned her calling, others that she embraced another faith and others say she’s a mind flayer or other horrible creature (a beholder, perhaps, or even a neogi) who’s mastered magic enough to take human form for years at a time.

All that’s certain is that Mag answers no questions, has healed folk from time to time, wears a ring of misdirection that conceals her true allegiances and powers, and stores broken instruments of torture in the old abbey loft where she sometimes lets travelers sleep. Whether she used spells or potions for healing is a point of contention. Reports on this are confused. All of this makes many merchants uneasy. They camp west of Soubar, or press on past if the weather’s fair and the night apt to be moonlit, rather than stopping here.

*The tavern was also the home of Mag, a mysterious woman who owned the bar around 1367 DR* As per Forgotten Realms Wiki

She's pretty much there to stay for another decade and more, so no matter what anyone tries to do, DM's aint getting rid of her no time soon. If I was a Soubar player, I'd rather try working with her instead of trying to oust her.

Good have the playing field set up for them already in a way because they just have to wait until the bad stuff happens- then they can go into action. The problems happen for team good, when they make efforts to change the status quo to try to make the world a better place. But even then the status quo is more inline with players that want to make the world a better place than players that want to make the world a worse place.

Still waiting for Team Evil to try to make the world a worse place. But most too busy trying to be good!

[AsuraKing]

*The tavern was also the home of Mag, a mysterious woman who owned the bar around 1367 DR* As per Forgotten Realms Wiki

She's pretty much there to stay for another decade and more, so no matter what anyone tries to do, DM's aint getting rid of her no time soon. If I was a Soubar player, I'd rather try working with her instead of trying to oust her.

To be fair, we've seen important lore NPCs killed off/drastically changed before, most recent example being Amylessan the Blackhearted being killed at Boareskyr. I see no reason players shouldnt be able to kill big NPCs like Mags, the Pereghost, a Duke... Granted it should be crazy difficult. We have our own canon here, we've long since departed from lore books.

[Rain]

Still waiting for Team Evil to try to make the world a worse place. But most too busy trying to be good!

I hope this was a joke.

[selhan]

Not from wot I be seeing!

Alot of Evil PC tend to do a whole lotta good deeds for the pure good deed! LOL

[Ghost]

To be fair, we've seen important lore NPCs killed off/drastically changed before, most recent example being Amylessan the Blackhearted being killed at Boareskyr. I see no reason players shouldnt be able to kill big NPCs like Mags, the Pereghost, a Duke... Granted it should be crazy difficult. We have our own canon here, we've long since departed from lore books.

This is true. Mag isn't invulnerable. She does have a lot of support from the many people and monsters who frequent Soubar, however, since she provides a place of relative stability without pushing laws on everyone. Her tavern becomes a sort of Switzerland, and I've even seen players use it like that.

Murder, death and violence are still daily things in Soubar, of course. As long as people don't disrupt business, no one cares.

[BloodRiot]

Custom lore opens the door for a Massive mess. - Just my Opinion

A cap to Good and Evil should be a thing but limited only to Lore events- Just my opinion

Example- During the Ending of The Time of Troubles, it would be really "Off Putting" if players were able to jump into the fray and kill Bhaal themselves / or finding and turning in the Tablets of Fate themselves. Player Gods? Meh dont think so. But if Team Evil was able to have fun in between in regards to that event that wouldnt change what takes place in lore, that be fine in my view. Like something I manage to do within the Time of Troubles. Which I can not detail due to the possibility of Meta.

(...)

This is only an issue because the server is still trying to keep in with the written lore at the same time as it wants (?) players to have freedom and ability to shape the world somehow.

Lore events are audience driven events. The outcomes are set in stone. What was written, shall pass regardless of what you do, at least in the grande scheme of things/for all practical purposes.

What custom lore means is, "up to the server start date, lore was as written", from server start date onward, all bets are off, nothing is written, ToT and other simillarly big events should not even happen IMHO. Players that know the source material will metagame the crap out of it even if casual low level meta. They will know things have transpired when they were not there to witness it, nor have they heard of it anyway. People already know a lot of source book material their character has no business knowing.

Quite literally, why wouldn't you want your players to turn in the tablets themselves? to be the drivers of the new stories? Don't want them to be able to become gods? thats fair, then don't open up the can of worms that allows them to become that. Let them be protagonist of the kinds of stories you can allow them to play, instead of being an audience to the NPCs of greatness we can probably enjoy more by reading about them in their own books.