Restructure or Status Quo

[Steve]

NWN2 was released as rated Teen. https://www.esrb.org/ratings-guide/

And on GOG it’s rated as PEGI Rating: 12+ (Violence).

BGTSCC has traditionally adhered to this for hosted content and experience because of the actual sub-18 year old players that game on it.

Slavery in context probably fits a Teen rating, but the Server would need better Rules as to how to enact it.

[Rinzler]

In the gaming industry, rated “M” (for mature) generally means 17+. This game is also 17 years old. BG3 is rated “M” as well.

Could shifting from PG-13 to M be a compromise? It’s also the appropriate nomenclature for gaming whereas PG-13 is geared towards films.

Edit: let me clarify: Rated M in addition to a strict ban on ERP.

[DM SummerBreeze]

On the slavery thing, i'll be blunt:

It was banned because people used it as an excuse to turn certain areas of the server into an ERP fest and some of that RP made other players wildly uncomfortable (Me among them, at the time.). It was banned due to the actions of a number of players both in and out of the UD, so definitely a case of "a few bad apples ruined it for everyone" but it wasn't even the first time this became a problem, and if we allowed it again, it would, I have no doubt, happen again.

Endy is right in that the majority of folks I think see this place as a standout in that it doesn't lean into ERP or gratuitous adult themes. A lot of RP communities, whether it be on NWN2, NWN1, or Conan, all tend to skew towards the "adult" and end up being outlets for a lot of weird erotic fantasies. It's honestly quite nice that BG is not one of those places and i'd personally hate seeing it devolve into such.

I was not talking about allowing ERP. But about allowing consentual slavery for PCs. Sorry but mindset of: slavery = ERP is unmature, 12 year old thought process, full of nothing but blind prejudice.

This is a very narrow way of thinking.

I never said that slavery RP in the underdark = ERP. I simply said it opened the floodgates for people to break the rules around ERP because unfortunately Slavery does = ERP to a lot of people. I agree it is immature but this is the kind of stuff we have to deal with alllll the time as DM's with rule breaks.

I simply was giving the reasons we have the rule in place, is because players couldn't help themselves but to turn it into a sexual thing pretty much every time its been done. Don't blame the rules, blame the rulebreakers for making it such a headache for us. You get a volume of complaints and drama around it and offended people eventually you just ban that thing because its easier than dealing with the endless flood of complaints. While you may want this type of RP (The non sexual version I assume) , a large amount of players actually dont want it at all, whether sexual or not.


We even recently had to have a discussion around wings because someone got given wings and decided to turn that into an ERP thing too. Do not underestimate peoples ability to make everything horny.

[DM SummerBreeze]

I agree. PG-13 serves no purpose, just limits the narrative (especially for us on S2 ). Avoiding ERP is a valid point (by which I mean I can understand why it is there, personally i don't give a damn that way or another), but the thing is it can be banned as a separate thing and not in a package deal with tons of other stuff.

The "PG-13" really is just to curb absolute gratuitous violence, torture and overtly sexual actions/erp. Im sure ive cut pretty close to the line a few times in my events, but I also take in to account exactly -who- is in said events as well, when it comes to things like violence or disturbing imagery. Also a "pg 13" or "teen" rated film or TV show, to use as an example, can mean WILDLY different things to different countries. I know even in the US vs Canada, Canada flies way more lose with the "teen" rating and sexual themes ect can easily be seen on normal cable TV, along with violence. There is room for some interpretation. The main thing is that we aren't making those around us uncomfortable for the sake of our own wants and desires of what we want something to be, vs what the actual majority want it to be or are comfortable with seeing on their day to day in the server.

We are aware we cant stop ERP entirely (it would be ridiculous to think so.) but we can keep it out of being the front and center of what the server is. We do get a lot of ex Haven players here to which I would say there can sometimes be an "Adjustment period" for them when they realize things are different here. As one example I have seen many many times.

I also cannot stress enough, that although some things may seem fine in practice because "the no ERP rule exists" or some such, in reality once we "open the flood gates" to something the volume of complaints we get can be astronomical and difficult to deal with to the point that we just end up banning the root of it. So I stand by my earlier sentiment that "the bad apples ruined it for everyone else" I said before.

[DaloLorn]

Re; PG-13. The rating system is more about euphemisms than actually hiding themes. I do actually believe you can do most things (and for the very few couple things you can't, there are other mediums adjacent to BG that thus won't violate the rules).

I've seen gore, blood, viscera, language, etc (by both DMs and players). I've myself RPed downright brutal stuff, and I'm glad I'm able to!

I'm of the opinion that:
1) PG-13 exists to ban ERP from taking place in game (relegating peeps to Discord/Haven alts instead basically). That is fine, it doesn't really change much for the ERP-inclined and it hides it from view for the non-ERP-inclined. (One might go a step further and say this is just a product of the "violence is OK but sex is bad" part of judeo-christian culture)
and
2) PG-13 exists as a means for DMs to punish specific activity (basically it is relatively unenforced until someone -wants- to enforce it, then it is there as a tool to use).

Pretty much, yeah.

As for slavery well:
1) Indentured servitude! The classic. You owe something and provide service for that thing.
2) "It isn't slavery, I love my captor or my captor is good for me" - stockhole syndrome taken to the extreme, etc.
3) Some sort of lawfully-inclined service (contracts, oaths, etc.).

All 3 can effectively be the exact same as slavery. Basically you can have slavery just without the "word" slavery. A euphemism.

#1 and #3 are probably fine if there are concrete restrictions on what you may or may not request of your servant, and those restrictions do not permit anything that could be a breach of PG-13. (With the caveat that "euphemisms", as you put it, would probably be considerably more frowned upon here than in normal play, because you're already skirting enough rules as it is.)

#2, though? Maybe if you were really trying to downplay the key indicators of Stockholm syndrome, to the point that it might not even qualify as such. Nastya's Ishi-Ishi (or one of her personalities, at least!) certainly tried to treat Virin as a slave back when she was stuck in the Underdark (... and for a long time after, to the point of being extremely and murderously frustrated by her growing disobedience), but her demands would generally be in line with an apathetic boss, not a slaver. The only coercion the "Ashi" persona usually resorted to was a stubborn tendency to physically drag Virin around to her desired destination until she relented, and Virin's obedience was born mostly of pragmatism and loyalty to "Nishi". I wouldn't call that Stockholm syndrome, and despite Ashi's efforts to the contrary, I wouldn't call it slavery either.

[Tekill]

it opened the floodgates for people to break the rules
Don't blame the rules, blame the rulebreakers for making it such a headache for us.

Don't hate the game hate the players?
The rules that restrict RP are here because the DMs feel the players will just exploit them if they are any looser. It is too much trouble to make any changes today, because it will just cause the same problems that had happened in the past.

wont work

Pin pointing specific rules to debate is taking the cart before the horse. We have picked one questionable rule that has hindered RP and lore before and debated why it exists or not. We got the same answers before. This thread has even highlighted the main reason why a lot of these specific rules exist, is due to DM response to handling the exploiters.

So the next step, was to start to change the dialogue towards how do we help the DM's help themselves deal with all this drama to loosen rules and free them up to DM more and deal with drama less.

The immediate reply to this suggestion:

This looks like a severe misdiagnosis of the situation, but my explanations thus far haven't been comprehended, there doesn't seem to be much I can do to remedy this.

We(I)(players) don't get it, and apparently never will.

In my limited brains smarts as a mere player, the DMs feel any restructuring will make the server worse, not better. They do not want help from the players as we don't understand what they have to go through, and it might cause them to lose some control, which will permit drama to surely be caused. They need to maintain control to regulate us and our RP or else they will always be dealing with drama. They believe that the rules, although sometimes unpleasant and restrictive, are vital to regulate the players instincts to act terribly. These rules despite the complaints a vocal minority, do not restrict RP, but enhance it. When they do not enhance the experience, and/or when these rules and said regulating of said rules, keep DM's away from actually being DM's, it is the rulebreakers fault, not the DM's.

The system currently creates the desired outcome. No need to fix. Status quo.

[DM SummerBreeze]

it opened the floodgates for people to break the rules
Don't blame the rules, blame the rulebreakers for making it such a headache for us.

Don't hate the game hate the players?
The rules that restrict RP are here because the DMs feel the players will just exploit them if they are any looser. It is too much trouble to make any changes today, because it will just cause the same problems that had happened in the past.

wont work

Pin pointing specific rules to debate is taking the cart before the horse. We have picked one questionable rule that has hindered RP and lore before and debated why it exists or not. We got the same answers before. This thread has even highlighted the main reason why a lot of these specific rules exist, is due to DM response to handling the exploiters.

So the next step, was to start to change the dialogue towards how do we help the DM's help themselves deal with all this drama to loosen rules and free them up to DM more and deal with drama less.

The immediate reply to this suggestion:

This looks like a severe misdiagnosis of the situation, but my explanations thus far haven't been comprehended, there doesn't seem to be much I can do to remedy this.

We(I)(players) don't get it, and apparently never will.

In my limited brains smarts as a mere player, the DMs feel any restructuring will make the server worse, not better. They do not want help from the players as we don't understand what they have to go through, and it might cause them to lose some control, which will permit drama to surely be caused. They need to maintain control to regulate us and our RP or else they will always be dealing with drama. They believe that the rules, although sometimes unpleasant and restrictive, are vital to regulate the players instincts to act terribly. These rules despite the complaints a vocal minority, do not restrict RP, but enhance it. When they do not enhance the experience, and/or when these rules and said regulating of said rules, keep DM's away from actually being DM's, it is the rulebreakers fault, not the DM's.

The system currently creates the desired outcome. No need to fix. Status quo.

"We created this rule because it caused way too much drama/headaches when we didnt have it before" is essentially the basis for all our rules, yes. I've been around the server long enough to remember when we had way less rules, and there was slave RP, drow raids ect. I actually enjoyed many of these things, but the majority did not. The majority always wins out over the minority when it comes to these types of things. A lot of these rule changes have now been standing a very, very long time and after seeing what people do when we loosen some of them I understand why they are in place. I still disagree fundamentally with a lot of how we have things set up ( for example, I disagree in making the UD and surface so fundamentally separated as they are now.) but again, my one voice loses out to the majority. This is just the way things are, its' democratic amongst staff for the most part.

The issue with threads like this, is I see a lot of argument baiting, and a lot of misunderstand or intentionally mis-interpreting of what someone says in order to further their arguments or bait further circular argument discussion. Unfortunately well meaning initial posts tend to devolve into this almost every time in our community, which ends up muddying the waters so much that its impossible to glean much, if any, real value from it from the perspective of a DM. At least for me.

[JustAnotherGuy]

I've been out of the loop for the last few days (out of state at a teacher's conference) and so just now had a chance to read/catch up on this forum thread. The past couple pages have revolved mostly around slavery, with some thoughts on ERP thrown in. This was in the setting of our PG13 rules.

Thoughts on ERP:

Hidden: show

As for ERP, I do not mind when two consenting adults engage in such activity. However, from what I have seen, once a server opens up to that sort of thing, that's what it becomes. During my 2-ish year hiatus from BG, I tried Haven for about a month. I ended up on Sigil for nearly two years. Sigil has the rule that ERP is allowed as long as it's not in a place where others can overhear it.

Let me give some background to my time on Sigil. I invested a LOT of time on Sigil; often I would play for 3-4 hours as the only person online. I'd grind out money while waiting to RP, and once someone came online I'd try to set up RP with them. I ended up running player-driven plots that lasted months and involved several people/factions (I was able to dual box there, so I'd have an anonymous account log in and I'd play the protagonist, then I'd get DM support to allow us to head to DM maps and such for big events.) I was asked to apply for the DM team by at least half a dozen players there. Eventually, the server grew to about 12 people constantly, with up to 25 people on busy nights.

Then, the Haven crowd showed up. They came in droves. And what would happen is that the server would look like it had a lot of activity, but there'd be several small groups or couples off ERPing in private. With the lack of RP for others, Sigil died out once again. (There were other circumstances of course, but I won't rehash them here.)

Relaxing the sexual rules on BG I fear would have the same type of outcome. People would split off to their own corner of the world, and it would look as if our server is growing. But we'd have -at best- the same amount of RP we have now. But I think it would be more likely that some of our population would be less inclined to seek out RP. We already have several people I can think of right off the top of my head that as soon as one logs in, the other does, too. And they don't contribute to the RP of anyone else as they split off as a couple and stay alone for hours, only to then log off at the same time.

Thoughts on Slavery:

Hidden: show

Concerning slavery, I am adamantly against slavery on BG. Besides the redundancy of the ERP rules, we have a lot of players who aren't as mature as others on the server. They may agree to slavery, and then feel trapped. "I can't say no to this, as it would be bad RP." And that's not a stretch of "that my happen." It already happens without slavery (I've seen it here on this server). Peer pressure is strong, especially in newer players who are feeling out the game/setting/RP. New players don't understand that they have sovereignty over their characters. They feel as if, "Oh, this is happening, so I must go along with it."

Slavery doesn't really add to RP, but it really does detract from fun.

Thoughts on BG13:

Hidden: show

We have a pretty good sweet spot where we are concerning what is allowed, in my opinion. Violent or sexual RP does not bother me in the least. However, violent and sexual RP absolutely does, and I've had to "red flag" RP on this server because of it. To me, if someone wants to describe torture (or other violence) RP in private, go ahead. But if they are out in the general public it's much better to keep it more tame. Allude to what you want to say, rather than outright saying it.

The BG13 rule keeps things more immersive in many ways, too. Especially when it comes to language. An overabundance of cussing does not show a good character. It shows a lack of creativity in writing, and is jarring enough that the focus centers on the player rather than the story.

TL;DR

I'm happy where the current rulings are on the topics that have been brought up in the last few pages.

[BloodRiot]

(...)

Im sorry but i disagree with many of these takes. So let's start dissecting this.

The negative outcome from ERP Haven players in sigil in your personal anecdote basically is that it fragmented player base to the point their are all split into couples or something in private areas of the server. This is absolutely not different in any way in terms of that fragmentation outcome to having every single player or small group of players segregated into their own guild hall or private homes or hidden away recesses of the server doing character development that has only personal or close reach and doesn't affect the larger server in any way. Obviously one is less raunchy and dubious in themes but... the consequences outlined are the same. Lets also go ahead and say the vast majority of those commenting do not want ERP in any form but we do feel an ERP ban as it's own self contained rule is enough and shouldn't be bundled with other stuff that can have legit RP.

Slavery is being banned because fears or ERP and fears of harassment. ERP was addressed above, harassment is in itself also against the rules. Doesn't matter if a player is stalking another trying to provoke PvP, doesn't matter if they are trying to force a slavery outcome. If the player does not want to participate, they are not forced to. Not unlike how a player can RP out of PvP or how captives must be released after a few days. How is that not bad RP how does one explain suddenly escaping? I don't know ...arrange oocly with your captors... same thing. Figure out a compelling story or handwave it that you took advantage of an opportunity to escape.

Tjhese overbearing rules just try to save us from ourselves. Well i don't want my rules to be dictated by the nasty abuser nor the thin skinned player that can't take any consequences to their characters happening ever. Treat me like a responsible adult, lets make sure we are having fun reasonably, and i will do the same back to you. I have no interest in sharing time with neither nasty individuals or cry babies honestly.

[Ghost]

Slavery (and long duration detainment) is banned because we have historically had several cases of peer pressure causing people a lot of grief.

You can be a responsible adult, BR, but history proves not everyone is. You and I may be strong willed individuals who will never let ourselves be peer pressured into RP that makes us uncomfortable, but to dismiss the fact that it happens and can be quite serious is unwise.

[DM Glittergold]

it opened the floodgates for people to break the rules
Don't blame the rules, blame the rulebreakers for making it such a headache for us.

Don't hate the game hate the players?
The rules that restrict RP are here because the DMs feel the players will just exploit them if they are any looser. It is too much trouble to make any changes today, because it will just cause the same problems that had happened in the past.

wont work

Pin pointing specific rules to debate is taking the cart before the horse. We have picked one questionable rule that has hindered RP and lore before and debated why it exists or not. We got the same answers before. This thread has even highlighted the main reason why a lot of these specific rules exist, is due to DM response to handling the exploiters.

So the next step, was to start to change the dialogue towards how do we help the DM's help themselves deal with all this drama to loosen rules and free them up to DM more and deal with drama less.

The immediate reply to this suggestion:

This looks like a severe misdiagnosis of the situation, but my explanations thus far haven't been comprehended, there doesn't seem to be much I can do to remedy this.

We(I)(players) don't get it, and apparently never will.

In my limited brains smarts as a mere player, the DMs feel any restructuring will make the server worse, not better. They do not want help from the players as we don't understand what they have to go through, and it might cause them to lose some control, which will permit drama to surely be caused. They need to maintain control to regulate us and our RP or else they will always be dealing with drama. They believe that the rules, although sometimes unpleasant and restrictive, are vital to regulate the players instincts to act terribly. These rules despite the complaints a vocal minority, do not restrict RP, but enhance it. When they do not enhance the experience, and/or when these rules and said regulating of said rules, keep DM's away from actually being DM's, it is the rulebreakers fault, not the DM's.

The system currently creates the desired outcome. No need to fix. Status quo.

I don't want to start anything here or even say much but, its been pretty much impossible for any DM to enter this discussion. Just because someone says that they would want to hear what the DMs have to say, it does not mean that its the case.

All i've seen here are people quoting phrase by phrase of what we say and completely ignoring what the other side has to say. Its the same here or in that other topic. I urge the people here to think and consider if what is discussed here is really going somewhere.

I have no plans to engage here beside this brief post. I am currently quite busy running 2 or 3 events a day in game, but if i was going to, i can confirm that it would just take away any will to continue.

[Rain]

Everything I see in previous posts is: "10 years ago someone did something bad so we banned slavery as whole" - instead judging person who actually f**ked up. Previous admin team implemented collective guit upon everyone. Perfect

I mean... to be honest a lot of these battles on these forums are being fought over subjects and concerns spanning over that time frame, yup. Status Quo/Evil PC's/Player Agency... All multi-year long back and forths. -Some- hotfix rules similarly within the same timeframe.

[Rain]

it opened the floodgates for people to break the rules
Don't blame the rules, blame the rulebreakers for making it such a headache for us.

Don't hate the game hate the players?
The rules that restrict RP are here because the DMs feel the players will just exploit them if they are any looser. It is too much trouble to make any changes today, because it will just cause the same problems that had happened in the past.

wont work

Pin pointing specific rules to debate is taking the cart before the horse. We have picked one questionable rule that has hindered RP and lore before and debated why it exists or not. We got the same answers before. This thread has even highlighted the main reason why a lot of these specific rules exist, is due to DM response to handling the exploiters.

So the next step, was to start to change the dialogue towards how do we help the DM's help themselves deal with all this drama to loosen rules and free them up to DM more and deal with drama less.

The immediate reply to this suggestion:

This looks like a severe misdiagnosis of the situation, but my explanations thus far haven't been comprehended, there doesn't seem to be much I can do to remedy this.

We(I)(players) don't get it, and apparently never will.

In my limited brains smarts as a mere player, the DMs feel any restructuring will make the server worse, not better. They do not want help from the players as we don't understand what they have to go through, and it might cause them to lose some control, which will permit drama to surely be caused. They need to maintain control to regulate us and our RP or else they will always be dealing with drama. They believe that the rules, although sometimes unpleasant and restrictive, are vital to regulate the players instincts to act terribly. These rules despite the complaints a vocal minority, do not restrict RP, but enhance it. When they do not enhance the experience, and/or when these rules and said regulating of said rules, keep DM's away from actually being DM's, it is the rulebreakers fault, not the DM's.

The system currently creates the desired outcome. No need to fix. Status quo.

Perhaps this is just the case though? The DM's have made their point and have made sense thus far (at least in terms of answering questions). Maybe this thread is a showcase that the Status Quo is fine from a staff perspective and needs no changing. Sometimes trying to change a server to be tailored to exactly what we want as players is never the best solution. Instead the best solution is to either figure out if all the pros outweigh the cons of the status quo and enjoy the server for what it is. Or find a place that has something closer to what your looking for in terms of an experience/rules/regulations and not sway a dusty ship that is floating fine already.

I believe the saying goes:

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." - Bert Lance

“So what do we do? Anything. Something. So long as we just don’t sit there. Try something else. If we wait until we’ve satisfied all the uncertainties, it may be too late.” – Lee Iacocca

[Tekill]

I don't want to start anything here or even say much but, its been pretty much impossible for any DM to enter this discussion. Just because someone says that they would want to hear what the DMs have to say, it does not mean that its the case.

All i've seen here are people quoting phrase by phrase of what we say and completely ignoring what the other side has to say. Its the same here or in that other topic. I urge the people here to think and consider if what is discussed here is really going somewhere.

I have no plans to engage here beside this brief post. I am currently quite busy running 2 or 3 events a day in game, but if i was going to, i can confirm that it would just take away any will to continue.

@ DM Glittergold
Spart's entry into this discussion was two words....barely even a phrase.
I thank the DM's who have made an effort to comment and I appreciate their efforts. But I also have to say that in my opinion a lot of DM's comments so far have come across as pretty flippant.
But that is also the pot calling the kettle black - so I understand your point. Thanks for posting Glittergold, I appreciate it.
I know in a lot of cases you (DMs) are repeating yourself like you have in many of these conversations in the past. I still appreciate your efforts! Thanks, keep up the hard work.

This thread was examining the need for a Restructure of this server or keep things as is. I want it to keep it constructive and I think I have succeeded. I think the thread took a great turn towards subject of the DM's. Major progress as far as I am concerned!
I believe it was argued that before sweeping chances can be identified, discussed, and made, there needs to be some help making sure the DM Team is performing optimally. IIRC - AoS was one to make such a point. I then suggested - lets talk about how do we as players make the DM Team Great again.

DM Ghost said I was incorrect and that he is not going to waste his time trying to explain it any further. ((EDIT- hopefully not taking to many liberties with his response- sorry if I did))
The issues/problems/challenges this server faces may not have started with the DM Team and Admin team, but that is where they now end, with them.

I will say it again but I will try to be less flippant and Biased (thanks again Glittergold). I am not pointing fingers, I am not saying anyone is wrong. I am stating what I see as the reality of the situation. Nobody needs to agree or disagree.

Quote from Tekill- Edited By Tekill to try and be less of an jerk.
The DMs feel any restructuring will likely cause the more troubles then solving, making the server worse, not better. They do not want help from the players as our roles are different and we don't understand what they have to go through. With our involvement in their efforts it might cause them to lose some control, with us getting in their way, which in turn will just cause more drama than solve. They need to maintain control to regulate us and our RP or else they will always be dealing with drama. They believe that the rules, although sometimes unpleasant and restrictive, are vital to regulate the players instincts to act terribly. A lot of players feel that these rules despite the complaints of a vocal minority, do not restrict RP, but actually enhance it. When they do not enhance the experience, and/or when these rules and said regulating of said rules, keep DM's away from actually being DM's, it is the rulebreakers fault, not the DM's.

I think this thread is a pretty fair summary of what we have discussed over the last ten+ years. And we did it under 10 pages!

The decision to make changes on this server are in the DM/Admins hands. If they decide to change something then they will. If they want our help or our opinions, they will ask for it.

But this means we have to stop arguing. The debate to make big overall sweeping changes have been shot down by the DM/Admin (repeatedly). That does not mean we have to stop discussing individual changes. The server does change...its is just more like a glacier then an explosion. I just think we are wasting our breath continuing to discuss the overall philosophy of the server and how to make it better. Your insights were great, but we are just repeating ourselves and creating echo chambers at this point. It has been said. We have said it. It no longer needs to be said.

Good talk!

[JustAnotherGuy]

(...)

Im sorry but i disagree with many of these takes. So let's start dissecting this.

The negative outcome from ERP Haven players in sigil in your personal anecdote basically is that it fragmented player base to the point their are all split into couples or something in private areas of the server. This is absolutely not different in any way in terms of that fragmentation outcome to having every single player or small group of players segregated into their own guild hall or private homes or hidden away recesses of the server doing character development that has only personal or close reach and doesn't affect the larger server in any way. Obviously one is less raunchy and dubious in themes but... the consequences outlined are the same. Lets also go ahead and say the vast majority of those commenting do not want ERP in any form but we do feel an ERP ban as it's own self contained rule is enough and shouldn't be bundled with other stuff that can have legit RP.

I agree with what you're saying here. I dislike the splintering of the RP crowd, not just by ERP but by spending time in segregated halls or housing. I dislike it so much so, that I actually keep a tracker of when Emmanuel and Ashling have "alone time" so that I can make sure it doesn't get to the point where we're segregating ourselves from the population.

With that said, though, I already see couples (who I won't name, obviously) on the server who log in simply to do "couples RP", or that is the vast majority of their RP. In my opinion, adding ERP into the mix would make it even worse.

And now with that said, I do recognize that no one was really calling for that to be lifted, but I wanted to address it in my post since it had become part of the topic.

Slavery is being banned because fears or ERP and fears of harassment. ERP was addressed above, harassment is in itself also against the rules. Doesn't matter if a player is stalking another trying to provoke PvP, doesn't matter if they are trying to force a slavery outcome. If the player does not want to participate, they are not forced to. Not unlike how a player can RP out of PvP or how captives must be released after a few days. How is that not bad RP how does one explain suddenly escaping? I don't know ...arrange oocly with your captors... same thing. Figure out a compelling story or handwave it that you took advantage of an opportunity to escape.

I don't feel this addresses what I was trying to say in my post. Perhaps I was not able to adequately express myself. Saying "no" is a learned skill, both in real life and in RP. Many (from my experience) find it even harder to say no in RP than in RL, because they have this pressure of wanting to be a good RPer, and don't want to gain a reputation in a small community as "the person who ruined RP" for others. So, there's a very real danger of someone unable to say no to situations in RP that make them uncomfortable. I know this, because I've witnessed it first hand a few times. When I first started playing, I found myself in that situation. I was in some circumstances that just weren't fun for me, but didn't think I could say, "No. This isn't fun" or "No. I'm uncomfortable with that."

Tjhese overbearing rules just try to save us from ourselves. Well i don't want my rules to be dictated by the nasty abuser nor the thin skinned player that can't take any consequences to their characters happening ever. Treat me like a responsible adult, lets make sure we are having fun reasonably, and i will do the same back to you. I have no interest in sharing time with neither nasty individuals or cry babies honestly.

There are two things about this. Firstly, the community as a whole has shown that some just simply can't be treated as responsible adults. And in our specific case, some of our players literally are not adults.

Secondly, even responsible adults might not be aware of the inabilities of others to let them know when they are not enjoying RP. The rules are not there to stifle RP, but to stem a blood flow that happened before. It has been shown that without these rules in place, the overall enjoyment of the server suffers.

Now, with that all said, I do understand that we are coming at this from two very different angles, hence our disagreements. Our experiences in life and online have shown us different sides of things and shaped the way that we see them.