Swashbuckler improvements

[Endelyon]

Endelyon,

I see the same numbers but they are not reflective of the server. I will gladly sit in game with you one day and we can look at every player sheet and we will both see that Majority of rogue levels are Dips. I am not trying to steer you wrong or argue that the class is not used.

We will see 1/3 of the server have 3 levels in rogue and that is it.

we will see maybe one player with 12 levels of rogue

We will not likely see one player with 20 levels of rogue

We will be hard pressed to find a player with 15 levels of rogue.


The common sneak is Ranger Assissan Rogue. SD, rogue, arcane tricksters, invsible blades.


I get the idea of the goal of what you all sought out to do, I do not think we had to do it at the cost of another classes Trade Mark ability, (they have a few but this is one of the biggies) most of all, I find it unfair we force the other classes to pay for it and SB not.


But thank you for taking your time to reply to me, from what I understand this is going in.

No worries, and for what it's worth I don't mind you (or any of the other DMs reading this for that matter) posting questions/comments/criticism from your DM accounts as long as long as you remain courteous (which you have) and don't try to leverage a personal opinion as an overall team opinion (which you haven't). DMs are players too after all.

[Invoker]

Good changes guys,

thank you.

In my opinion Rogue could use some tweaking to make it more attractive for pure-classing (who in their right mind now goes 30 rogue as opposed to taking Shadowdancer or Assassin levels at some point? There's pretty much no way currently to build an effective sneak attacker without unlocking HIPS outside of Phantom!), but from my point of view it certainly doesn't need any more love in the first few levels.

Rogue is a good class, overall.

It is versatile, it has a lot of class skills and skill points to make great use of them; it can be one hell of a damage dealer; it has easy access to excellent defenses like Defensive Roll, Epic Dodge and Improved Evasion connected to excellent Reflex Saves; it easily qualifies for TWF and Expose Weakness, one of the most powerful feats available; It can be very effective against critical immune targets, which are problematic for other classes.

The Rogue's problem on the server is the lack of the necessary equipment to cover its main weaknesses: the Fort and Will Saves and its HP (in certain builds) or AC (in SA-based builds). UMD used to be the way to go, but it's now far less useful. The Epic Shop gives a big hand with the AC (and thus, indirectly, with the HP), but the issue with the saves remains.

The class doesn't really need an overhaul, imho: the item options that are being introduced are a good step in the right direction. If you think about it, a SA Rogue with 15d6+ SA dice, HiPS, high movement speed, AC 40+, PTWF, EP, ED, EW and items giving it Hide/MS 80/80+, immunity to Death effects and immunity to Mind Spells would be extremely strong, and everything aside the mentioned immunities can already be done.

Permanent immunities are of course very bad in general, but stealth (bluff would also be good) item options increasing those saves are already being introduced.

Phantom is a different story. Phantom is worse than Rogue, albeit playable.

@Hera: I have a Rogue19/SD5/WD3/GT3. There are at least 18-20 friends of mine with such characters (as in: Rogue-heavy, and not wizards). Not sure about the rest of the server, but I am pretty sure the Swashbucklers past 5 are less than that.

[Valefort]

For the record the point of adding epic precision is because it works with insightful strike damage. If you have epic precision then you deal 1/2 insightful strike damage to crit immunes instead of 0.

[mrm3ntalist]

No worries, and for what it's worth I don't mind you (or any of the other DMs reading this for that matter) posting questions/comments/criticism from your DM accounts as long as long as you remain courteous (which you have) and don't try to leverage a personal opinion as an overall team opinion (which you haven't). DMs are players too after all.

Of course you, myself, Maecius, other DMs etc dont have a problem with DMs posting in such argumentative threads with their DM account. I (you, mac etc ) can respond and argue with them freely, like i do in the QC forums, with friends etc. Do you think everyone feels the same way about arguing with a dm? I am not certain but i think there is even a rule not to argue with the DMs

I get the idea of the goal of what you all sought out to do, I do not think we had to do it at the cost of another classes Trade Mark ability, (they have a few but this is one of the biggies) most of all, I find it unfair we force the other classes to pay for it and SB not.

The trademark ability of rogues is sneak attack. Epic presicion is not that. Epic presicion allows them to apply half SA to undead.

The trademark ability for SBs is insightful strike. Epic presicion is not that. Epic presicion allows them to apply half IS damage against undead.

[YourMoveHolyMan]

Epic precision works against all crit/sneak immunities, not just undead.

[DM Hera]

Epic Percision is a rogue ability. It is why it takes crippling strike to get it. A rogue only ability at the initial conception of the video game and pnp.

Crippling strike requires rogue 10.

Epic Percision requires crippling strike level 21

Thus it's a rogue epic ability. Granted you only need 10 rogue to get it.

How does an ability that is exclusive to a class not be theirs?


Even if one wanted to bend this to that why is SB getting it at no cost. Everyone else has to deal with crit immune monsters and you can't sneak past a crit immune monster and loot in some rooms so to unstealthing upon chest open or monster padding issues (also small rooms and monsters can't go through area doors).

I am not saying it is broken, or beaks the game to give SB this ability before epic levels. I simply call into the question of fair.

Why is it free?
Why isn't anyone else getting it, who also have damage problems against undead.


Is there regular Percision we can give to these classes that get them 1/4 sa dice on crit immunes? Can this be a feature added to crippling strike? For the sake of rogues and ninjas? If we fear the damage of a early game SA toon is to high?



Anyways fun topic. I will leave it be. Maybe acess was fixed again

[mrm3ntalist]

Epic precision works against all crit/sneak immunities, not just undead.

Yes it does

[mrm3ntalist]

Epic Percision is a rogue ability. It is why it takes crippling strike to get it. A rogue only ability at the initial conception of the video game and pnp.

Crippling strike requires rogue 10.

Epic Percision requires crippling strike level 21

Thus it's a rogue epic ability. Granted you only need 10 rogue to get it.

How does an ability that is exclusive to a class not be theirs?

You mean the ability to apply some damage to undead? Sorry to say but every class does that. The thing about rogues and epic presicion is that they can apply their SA damage ( something lets say unique to them ) to undead. Without epic presicion they couldnt.

SBs wont get SAs. What will get is IS damage to undead.

Can you see the difference? That is why i said, if we were to rename the feat and give it a proper description we wouldnt be having this discussion since it is not about rogues... This change has nothing to do with rogues.

Even if one wanted to bend this to that why is SB getting it at no cost. Everyone else has to deal with crit immune monsters and you can't sneak past a crit immune monster and loot in some rooms so to unstealthing upon chest open or monster padding issues (also small rooms and monsters can't go through area doors).

I am not saying it is broken, or beaks the game to give SB this ability before epic levels. I simply call into the question of fair.

Why is it free?
Why isn't anyone else getting it, who also have damage problems against undead.

Lets hear at what level SBs should get this feat and why then.

Is there regular Percision we can give to these classes that get them 1/4 sa dice on crit immunes? Can this be a feature added to crippling strike? For the sake of rogues and ninjas? If we fear the damage of a early game SA toon is to high?

There isnt a regular presicion. Again, this change has nothing to do with rogues. If you feel rogues need something you are free to make suggestions.

[dedude]

As I read it, giving this to SB was just to avoid making a new complex feat (precise insightful strike?). It has a WAY smaller impact on insightful strike compared to sneak attack. Granted, if you make an SB 12 with heavy sneak multiclassing, you will get more from it. I think it is a fair decision though.

[mrm3ntalist]

Granted, if you make an SB 12 with heavy sneak multiclassing, you will get more from it.

Can you explain this? 12levels of SB means that almost have your levels dont have SA progression.

[dedude]

Granted, if you make an SB 12 with heavy sneak multiclassing, you will get more from it.

Can you explain this? 12levels of SB means that almost have your levels dont have SA progression.

I just mean that if you go for something with SA, besides the SB levels, you will get more value out of the epic precision. Compared to if a new feat was made that only worked with insightful strike.

[mrm3ntalist]

I just mean that if you go for something with SA, besides the SB levels, you will get more value out of the epic precision. Compared to if a new feat was made that only worked with insightful strike.

Ah, i see what you mean. Yes it would benefit for certain.

I just wanted to make certain that you could not make better "rogue characters", since this seems to be the biggest issue.

[Aeb Ankor]

Why are SB not given Crippling Strike or a free 'Epic Precision qualifying' feat (or the Rogue bonus feat choices) and then if they want Epic Precision they use an epic feat choice like any other rogue based character that wants to have it in epic levels...

[The Whistler]

zzzzzz just give them a feat at lvl 12 that isn't crippling strike, that qualifies them to take epic precision in the epics.

Better yet, make it so that weakening critical qualifies you for epic precision. That way everyone is happy.

[mrm3ntalist]

Why are SB not given Crippling Strike or a free 'Epic Precision qualifying' feat (or the Rogue bonus feat choices) and then if they want Epic Precision they use an epic feat choice like any other rogue based character that wants to have it in epic levels...

The reason is because the feat hasnt got the same value for SBs. It should not be an epic feat. Make me an SB build. Most builds have 16INT. With a +4 INT item we are talking about 5 damage from IS? Thats what... 2 extra damage against undead?

There is a number of different class the SB could multiclass with instead of going to level 12 and there are a number of different non epic feats that can give extra damage.

Because our aim is to give motives for a heavier investment in SB and because by no means Epic presicion can be considered "epic" for SBs we gave it at level 12 and for free. 2 extra damage, only against undead for free. I can understand someone saying why not give it at level 14 or 16, but epic?

Better yet, make it so that weakening critical qualifies you for epic precision. That way everyone is happy.

I cant comprehend why would anyone be unhappy, by a feat that in the majority of builds gives 2-3 damage against undead. We had no such issues when deadly defence went in and it gives 1d4 against everything and that wasnt an epic feat either....