Stats/power when using Shapechange spell

[Rhifox]

All monk/sf abilities transfer to the shape. Monk/sf gets much more damage without sacrificing cl since sf progresses unarmed damage.

But Rhifox states that Sacred Flames does not transfer to the Form from Shapechange?!? Who's actually correct?

I was wrong, I apologize. I had thought it was applied directly to the weapon, according to its description, which would mean it wouldn't transfer. But I read the wiki for the class and it specifically states Sacred Flames is applied to the character and not the weapon ("Note: as this damage is applied to the character, it (ironically) affects any worn weapon, and is not subject to damage resistance."). So if you activate it before Shapechanging, then it would apply apparently.

That would give the Shapechange a nice +10 damage boost for two minutes per day at 10 SF levels.

[Steve]

A druid is stronger in every way that counts.

Would this remain true if the -8 AB penalty for SF in Shapechange form, was removed?

Yes, the ability to cast very powerful DC spells, not to mention healing spells, is pretty powerful don't you think?

Yes, I think that Druid's Feat-based ability to be Shaped and cast high DC spells is pretty much unmatched.

[Rhifox]

Numbers-
(manually done, so could be mistakes)

Pure Spirit Shaman Shapechange (Nightwalker)
AC: 57 (31 + 9 Tortoise + 5 Halo of Sand + 2 Cats +6 IMA wand +4 Shield wand)
AB: 38, 5 attacks (22 + 2 Bulls + 14 Shape Strength)
Damage: 2d10+16 (14 + 2 Bulls), +1d8 Fire (Flame Weapon)

Pure Wizard Shapechange (Nightwalker)
AC: 48 (31 + 6 IMA + 4 Shield + 2 Cats + 5 Spiderskin/Shadow Shield)
AB: 33, 3 attacks (15 + 2 Bulls + 4 GHeroism + 14 Shape Strength)
Damage: 2d10+16 (14 + 2 Bulls), +1d8 Fire (Flame Weapon wand)
Bonus: 6 minute extended Displacement/Mirror Images

Spirit Shaman/Sacred Fist Shapechange (Nightwalker)
AC: 60 (31 + 9 Tortoise + 5 Halo + 2 Cats +6 IMA wand + 4 Shield wand + 3 SF)
AB: 33, 5 attacks (25 + 2 Bulls +14 Shape Strength - 8 Sacred Fist)
Damage: 2d10+16 (14 + 2 Bulls), +1d8 Fire (Flame Weapon), +10 during Sacred Flames

Spirit Shaman/Monk Shapechange (Nightwalker)
AC: ~67-69 (31 + 9 Tortoise + 5 Halo + 2 Cats + 6 IMA wand + 4 Shield wand + ~10-12 Wisdom)
AB: 38, 5 attacks (22 + 2 Bulls + 14 Shape Strength)
Damage: 2d10+16 (14 + 2 Bulls), +1d8 Fire (Flame Weapon)

Spirit Shaman/Monk/Sacred Fist Shapechange (Nightwalker)
AC: ~70-72 (31 + 9 Tortoise + 5 Halo + 2 Cats + 6 IMA wand + 4 Shield wand + ~10-12 Wisdom + 3 SF)
AB: 33, 5 attacks (25 + 2 Bulls + 14 Shape Strength, - 8 Sacred Fist)
Damage: 2d10+16 (14 + 2 Bulls), +1d8 Fire (Flame Weapon), +10 during Sacred Flames

Spirit Shaman/Monk/Hospitaler Shapechange (Nightwalker)
AC: ~67-69 (31 + 9 Tortoise + 5 Halo + 2 Cats + 6 IMA wand + 4 Shield wand + ~10-12 Wisdom)
AB: 41, 5 attacks (25 + 2 Bulls, + 14 Shape Strength)
Damage: 2d10+16 (14 + 2 Bulls), +1d8 Fire (Flame Weapon)

Spirit Shaman/Monk/Duelist Shapechange (Nightwalker)
AC: ~71-73 (31 + 9 Tortoise + 5 Halo + 2 Cats + 6 IMA wand + 4 Shield wand + 10-12 Wisdom + ~3 Duelist + 1 Dodge)
AB: 39, 5 attacks (23 + 2 Bulls + 14 Shape Strength)
Damage: 2d10+16 (14 + 2 Bulls), +1d8 Fire (Flame Weapon)

Spirit Shaman/Monk/Sacred Fist/Duelist Shapechange (Nightwalker)
AC: ~74-76 (31 + 9 Tortoise + 5 Halo + 2 Cats + 6 IMA wand + 4 Shield wand + 10-12 Wisdom +3 SF + ~3 Duelist + 1 Dodge)
AB: 33, 5 attacks (25 + 2 Bulls + 14 Shape Strength - 8 Sacred Fist)
Damage: 2d10+16 (14 + 2 Bulls), +1d8 Fire (Flame Weapon), +10 during Sacred Flames


Nightwalker has, among other benefits, immunity to sneak attacks, critical hits, level drain, and ability drain.

If Horned Devil form is used instead, it gets an extra 2-4 AC and constant 5 regen at the cost -5 to AB and lower damage (2d6+12).

Can get an extra AB or an extra AC with epic feats, of course.


The -8 AB from SF really hurts combinations including it, IMO.

[Steve]

Hey Rhifox...you forgot Spirit Shaman/Monk/Duelist + Hospitaler!!! lol. Just kidding, and thanks for the breakdown in numbers.

So, Monk essentially is the AC booster of all combinations, and Sacred Fist just adds more CL to the build plus some AC and AB.

But if you compare choosing Sacred Fist or Hospitaler, it would seem the Hospitaler route is nearly as powerful, and the SF route gets that nasty -8 AB in Form.

Without it, however, the SF route would have the same AB plus +3 AC and Sacred Flames use over the Hospitaler.

Game breaking to remove the -8 penalty?!?

[mrm3ntalist]

Hey Rhifox...you forgot Spirit Shaman/Monk/Duelist + Hospitaler!!! lol. Just kidding, and thanks for the breakdown in numbers.

So, Monk essentially is the AC booster of all combinations, and Sacred Fist just adds more CL to the build plus some AC and AB.

But if you compare choosing Sacred Fist or Hospitaler, it would seem the Hospitaler route is nearly as powerful, and the SF route gets that nasty -8 AB in Form.

Without it, however, the SF route would have the same AB plus +3 AC and Sacred Flames use over the Hospitaler.

Game breaking to remove the -8 penalty?!?

if we visit the shapechange spell there will be nerfs for some shapes - those that work with monk - while others shapes can get a boost.

[Steve]

Well, that's your prerogative, to see the Forms in Shapechange not-working-as-intended in combination with Monk.

But what I am trying to figure out is whether or not the -8 AB penalty with Sacred Fist is justified, since it can be fixed, but possibly, its "fixing" would cause the combination of Sacred Fist + Shapechange to be above and beyond the Standard of Top Tier 1 Builds.