Stats/power when using Shapechange spell

[Steve]

Power question related to the Shapechange spell:

Would a Spirit Shaman/Sacred Fist build (and most likely with Monk levels) be more powerful than a Wizard or Sorcerer casting this spell?

Do any Class Abilities/Feats transfer over to any of the Forms from Shapechange? Or, is it just bonuses from Spells (like Deathward, or Stonebody or Freedom of Movement or Gr. Heroism)?

Cheers.

[chad878262]

Power question related to the Shapechange spell:

Would a Spirit Shaman/Sacred Fist build (and most likely with Monk levels) be more powerful than a Wizard or Sorcerer casting this spell?

Do any Class Abilities/Feats transfer over to any of the Forms from Shapechange? Or, is it just bonuses from Spells (like Deathward, or Stonebody or Freedom of Movement or Gr. Heroism)?

Cheers.

My understanding (and I have not played one) is that Shapechange is the whole reason to go Spirit Shaman instead of Cleric when building a Sacred Fist. This makes me think that at least some of the benefits of Monk/SF does apply in Shapechange. I know, for instance that AC can get very high, but that they still can struggle a bit with Attack Bonus, which is where Cleric helps out such a build.

[Rhifox]

The thing that affects it the most (aside from the monk Wisdom AC bonus thing) is the character's BAB. Shapechange affects the character's strength but not their BAB, so a non-gish wizard/sorc will have less attacks per round than a shaman (since shaman has Medium BAB).

There's also access to Flame Weapon, which affects the form's damage, and Tortoise Shell for Nat Armor and Halo of Sand for Deflection. Because the form doesn't get gear stat boosts, shapechange needs spells for its AC. Mage Armor and Shield can be easily wanded, while Tortoise Shell cannot.

Wizard/Sorc does get heroism, displacement, and mirror image. While displacement and mirror image can be gotten on items, the short duration limits how much it can be used with shapechange as you have to drop the shape to renew them.

When you add in Monk levels, it definitely tilts towards shaman in defensive power. SF is not good for it though, since from what I've heard the shapechange's weapon does not count as being unarmed for SF's abilities and so it gets a -8 AB penalty.

Any activated feats can only be activated outside of shapechange. This limits their usefulness. Ones that apply bonuses will generally apply in shapechange for their duration, but ones that apply to a specific weapon (like Sacred Flames, or shaman's Storm Avatar spell) won't apply in shapechange form because it was cast on your previous weapon rather than the shape's weapon.

So to summarize, I'd say:
-Shaman shapechange is better than a pure wiz/sorc using shapechange.
-A gish wiz/sorc using shapechange should equal a shaman shapechange.
-Shaman/monk shapechange is superior to all of the above.
-Adding SF gives you an extra 3 AC but you lose 8 AB for it. Not a good trade.

[Steve]

So, if a Shaman + Sacred Fist didn't receive the -8 AB penalty, would the Form become far greater in power than what a Shaman/monk-only form can get?

[Rhifox]

Shaman/Monk/SF would, yes.

[Nemni]

Probably greater, but perhaps not far greater since it does not really solve the main weakness.
I've tried the monk/shaman shapechange combo. Defense was great but offense (especially AB) was really lacking. Also the poor animations and the inability to do anything else but to basic attack while shapechanged, made it really boring to play.

[Steve]

Shaman/Monk/SF would, yes.

Would you say that is solely getting full AB that makes it more powerful, or is there any other specific SF aspects that contribute?

@Nemni: yeah, I understand the boring aspect, having no other interaction other than melee hitting. At least Druids, when in their various strong Shapes, can utilize Natural Spell to drop some bombs, from time to time.

[chad878262]

If the creature weapons were treated as fists the SS/Monk/SF type would have better AB, better damage, and better AC.

[Steve]

If the creature weapons were treated as fists the SS/Monk/SF type would have better AB, better damage, and better AC.

How better damage? Shapes are fixed to damage types and amounts, right? And yes, I was asking if SF specific armor transfers over, but would that be greater than Monk WIS to AC, where any Class combo just pumps WIS?

I guess what I'm saying is that many people say SF makes Shapechange form soooo much more devastating than without it, that that justifies the -8 AB that occurs because the Code sees Creature Type weapons AS Weapons, not as unarmed (when the firm is actually unarmed).

I haven't seen the numbers that support the argument, and unfortunately, JEGs doesn't apply the -8 AB, so it is difficult to see the actually difference.

[mrm3ntalist]

All monk/sf abilities transfer to the shape. Monk/sf gets much more damage without sacrificing cl since sf progresses unarmed damage.

On the other hand a monk/hospitaler will have higher bab.

The higher bab and not getting the -8 ab penalty makes the monk/H more efficient mechanically. You already got a lot ac and the higher ab means you hit more often, which in turn means more damage.

[mrm3ntalist]

All monk/sf abilities transfer to the shape. Monk/sf gets much more damage without sacrificing cl since sf progresses unarmed damage.

On the other hand a monk/hospitaler will have higher bab.

The higher bab and not getting the -8 ab penalty makes the monk/H more efficient mechanically. You already got a lot ac and the higher ab means you hit more often, which in turn means more damage.

Monk/sf is better is you don't plan to shape change as much and only do it to tank mostly

[Rhifox]

but would that be greater than Monk WIS to AC, where any Class combo just pumps WIS?

It would not. SF caps out at +3 AC for 10 levels of SF. A single level of Monk gives you your Wisdom modifier (which for a shaman can be +10 or more if pumping it and using Owl's Insight).

I guess what I'm saying is that many people say SF makes Shapechange form soooo much more devastating than without it, that that justifies the -8 AB that occurs because the Code sees Creature Type weapons AS Weapons, not as unarmed (when the firm is actually unarmed).

Monk is what makes Shapechange super powerful, not SF. The main person that exploited Shapechange for maximum effectiveness (Aeb'el) is the one that said to avoid SF due to the -8 AB.

Personally I don't have either class in my build, so I can't give any numbers or confirmation on this.

Monk/sf gets much more damage without sacrificing cl since sf progresses unarmed damage.

I don't believe Shapechange attacks count as Unarmed for the purpose of these abilities? Or do they?

[dedude]

Any class with shapechange: More AC than you need, decent ab, low-decent damage, zero utility.
A druid is stronger in every way that counts.

[Steve]

All monk/sf abilities transfer to the shape. Monk/sf gets much more damage without sacrificing cl since sf progresses unarmed damage.

But Rhifox states that Sacred Flames does not transfer to the Form from Shapechange?!? Who's actually correct?

On the other hand a monk/hospitaler will have higher bab.

The higher bab and not getting the -8 ab penalty makes the monk/H more efficient mechanically. You already got a lot ac and the higher ab means you hit more often, which in turn means more damage.

So, a Spirit Shaman / Monk / Hospitaler is greater than a Spirit Shaman / Monk / Sacred Fist, solely because of this -8 AB penalty?

If that -8 AB penalty would disappear, would those 2 builds be equal, or would SS / M / SF become greater than SS / M / H? What would make it greater, and would that be a problem, actually?

A druid is stronger in every way that counts.

Would this remain true if the -8 AB penalty for SF in Shapechange form, was removed?

Monk is what makes Shapechange super powerful, not SF.

Well, I've been indirectly informed that Sacred Fist is such an OP PrC at the moment, that any changes—such as removing the -8 AB penalty when in Shapechange form—is not a good idea for BGTSCC.

So if what you're saying is the real truth, then...?

[dedude]

A druid is stronger in every way that counts.

Would this remain true if the -8 AB penalty for SF in Shapechange form, was removed?

Yes, the ability to cast very powerful DC spells, not to mention healing spells, is pretty powerful don't you think?