Cleric and Bard question

[ARHicks00]

I said you could go with shield if you wanted, and precised it wasn't necessary. Hopefully a bard doesn't reach a fighter's AB or damage with a weapon ! That's precisely why these feats are never going in, after all bards got a whole array of tricks up their sleeves to make up for that with their spells and songs.

That's not why if fact out of the core classes not counting the new ones or made up ones Bard places at #4 barely beating out the paladin. Bards are hardly overpowered as you can shut them down using Fort save attacks, ability decreasing attacks, disarm, and immunity to sonics as well as using lesser restoration or remove curse. Mages, Clerics, and Druids have all these spade. Most builds that critical hit for large damage and two handed builds can out damage Hymn or Song of Requiem as their maximum damage/heal is 102 to 118 not counting items. A Pure Fighter output in his main hand is 30 to 37 for a total of 180 to 360 and 222 to 444. A bard gets only 240 HP. With displacement or mirror image, the Fighter ends the fight in one or two rounds. Not to mention, a level 15 heal potion restore 150 health.

To put it simple, bard has a very bad damage output and his songs barely make up for it. That's why I don't understand why the feat was nerf since the damage lowers when fighting in group battles. If anything the feats allow for hits to land for more damage. And I never, said bard's can't two hand, but you're better with shield bash than two handing. However, I value AB over two-handed damage or Shield bashing

[Valefort]

Fort save attacks against something that has greater heroism, superior resistance and 30 spellcraft. Funny ! If you somehow feel threatened by low fort you can still equip some gear to make up for your "weakness" (seriously nothing is ever going to beat your saves).

For the rest you seem to refer to PvP matters because it doesn't apply to PvE even remotely, and I already said a bard can go two-handed as with mirror, displace, ethereal visage harming the bard will prove almost impossible for the mobs.

That said I'm curious to see your whole ranking.

[chad878262]

I question how often you have played this game man. Bards and FvS are two of the most OP classes we have on this server. You can not shut down a Bard, period. Why is it a problem if mage/cleric/druid can protect against or cure what a bard does? Fighters can't do it at all! Bards also have other abilities that Fighters don't have like the ability to sack up insane AC through Inspiration and Song of Heroism. Or they can grant a party member spell resistance or any number of other tricks, as Valefort said. They also have spells such as Ethereal Visage and others that render them basically immune to PvE when used correctly.

If you really think bards are weak, you never saw the naked bard thread. Essentially MrM3ntalist took a Bard to the Balor (2nd hardest boss on the server) and solo'd it with nothing, but a Longsword (might have been +4 Longsword, don't recall). No armor, now other items, just a longsword, spells, inspirations and songs. Solo...The balor. With proper mixing of inspirations, songs and spells Bards can keep themselves quite invincible for a decent amount of time.

In addition, there are many ways to build a Bard and still be strong. They can be built as decent Archers or TWF (DEX), STR builds, EDM STR/CHA split builds or max CHA builds which can reach insane levels of damage on Requiem.

[Cenerae]

Favored souls are one of the easiest classes to be strong with in PvE. Even if you don't go after a divine might build, they buff up nicely and should never struggle to kill things.

Bards take a bit of time to really get off the ground due to their medium BAB and lack of good offensive spells, but they make up for it in spades when they reach epics. And levelling them isn't too awful since they have plenty of defenses available between displacement, mirror image, and inspire defence if they need it. Along with inspire courage and greater/heroism to buff their AB. And then you get Song of Requiem, which is incredibly powerful. And by then you also have Legionairre's March, allowing you to steal a fighter's BAB in group play for those hard fights (and bestow it on anyone else too).

I'm not really seeing why a bard would need all of the blatantly overpowered stuff from Kaedrin's. It already has some very strong tools at its disposal, and that's just for solo play. If you're making a build that fails to incorporate any damage elements, that isn't the fault of the class. That's the fault of the user, and it can occur to anything, not just a bard.

[ARHicks00]

Add in the natural versatility from Bardic Inspirations and songs (flipping between bonus to skills, AB/Damage, AC, Regen, etc.) and you have a very fun build and a near limitless list of options for RP.

That didn't answer the original question nor did the buildyou posted answer the question.

Fort save attacks against something that has greater heroism, superior resistance and 30 spellcraft. Funny ! If you somehow feel threatened by low fort you can still equip some gear to make up for your "weakness" (seriously nothing is ever going to beat your saves).

If you are looking at this from item perspective than wear spell immunity items. However I am referring to Bard prior to having access to this stuff. Items change the gameplay, but without the items, this is what a class amounts to. In the case of the bard, skill and save items are a high priorty.

For the rest you seem to refer to PvP matters because it doesn't apply to PvE even remotely, and I already said a bard can go two-handed as with mirror, displace, ethereal visage harming the bard will prove almost impossible for the mobs.

Epic levels with a two handed weapon you have 38 AC. Mobs can still hit you and mirror only allows for 1 rounds worth of damage avoidance. Displacement is will only reduce the number of attacks that land. Against epic level mobs, you aren't exactly solo or tanking.

That said I'm curious to see your whole ranking.

Going by the original core class. This is not just PvP, but PvE too.
1. Mages (Wizard/Sorcerer)
2. Clerics
3. Druid
4. Bards
5. Paladin (Has a easier time bypass damage reduction and non-critical enemies)
6. Ranger (Can beat the paladin in PvP, but is limited by what favored he chooses.)
7. Barbarian
8. Fighter
9. Rogue (one trick pony)

[Valefort]

If we talk about adding feats for bards on the server then we're talking about bards in the context of the server, ie with items and with the stats of the mobs in mind, otherwise you're cherry picking what fit your points.

With that in mind I'll reiterate : you can two-hand with bard. Another point you can't wear spell immunity items for all the spells, besides you don't even particularly need saving throw items as the DCs won't be that high in the first place (also skill items are not a priority for bards, far from it).

You'll have slightly more than 38 AC, either way mobs don't have blind fight don't have super high AB and don't deal super high damage so you'll see you'll just heal the damage you'll receive with a requiem every now and then. At this point I can only tell you to try it out the server with a bard.

[Steve]

Bard AC:
15 + 2 (w/ Cat's) + 6 Mithral Chain mail + 4 AC + 12 set = 39 (+4 shield spell + 2 IMA = 45; 47 w/ UMD scrolls; +4 spells Song of Heroism = 51 max (seen in JEGs)

You do not forgo the calculation of Mirror + Displacement when making a bard of 21 CL or higher. If you don't factor Bard Spells in...then you're not really understanding the Class in the first place.

Yes, the Bard is not a Fighter. A Bard does not have the same potential damage output as a Fighter. But the Bard will survive situations that will cream the Fighter in 20 secs.

Cause really...if Bards ALREADY rank #4 on someone's List, then a Bard 30 is doing absolutely fantastic, already, and Feats like Snowflake Dance and Song of Uberness just do not need to be on BGTSCC.

Well...unless the Devs just made all the mobs HARDER!

[Darkwind]

Yeah, calling bards weak is a pretty heavy lift IMHO. Not as heavy of a lift as calling FvS weak but its up there for certain.

I really liken them to wizzies in many ways. They are delicate in early levels then just hit beast mode at some point and become incredibly hard to kill.

[ARHicks00]

I question how often you have played this game man. Bards and FvS are two of the most OP classes we have on this server.

Favored souls are one of the easiest classes to be strong with in PvE. Even if you don't go after a divine might build, they buff up nicely and should never struggle to kill things.

Clerics
- Can turn undead.
- Can be versatile if built right.
- Can get access to Divine feats
- Can get empowered healing through domains or PrC
- Has access to two domains giving them proficiency or feats from other classes.
- Already have access to heavy armor.
- Both DC, spell slots, and spell levels availability/progression are all tied in with Wisdom.
- Has more PrCs that it can cross class with and provudes more synergy than FS.

Favored Souls
- Can only cast spells repeatedly
- Cannot get empower their healing, Turn Undead, divine feats, or heavy arnor without cross-classing.
- Spell level availability/progression is slower than the cleric.
- Are force to wield the favored weapon of their God.
- Get DR against physucal damage and elemental feats. (Energy immunity makes elemental DR useless)
- Spell availability/progression and slots ared tied in with Charisma, but DC is tied in with Wisdom, which are the same attributes as a cleric.
FvS only has synergy with the Paladin, Warlock, Rogue, Cleric and only 2 PrCs on this server.

You can not shut down a Bard, period.

With the things I listed...yes, you can. So if the enemy gains protection from sonics, the bard can only use a physical approach, via melee or archery. The same spells a bard gets, other classes can too.

As noted earlier, if a class has weakness, items can more than make up for what a class lacks. The only thing a bard gets is dedication to huge amount of sonic energy and damage avoidance. I never the bard was weak and I don't where that came from or why it is being used to deflect from the orginal question.

[chad878262]

The answer to the question is that bards are already one of the strongest base classes there is no desire to make them even more powerful.

[ARHicks00]

If we talk about adding feats for bards on the server then we're talking about bards in the context of the server, ie with items and with the stats of the mobs in mind, otherwise you're cherry picking what fit your points.

Wait. The topic has since vered iff from what ask to class comparsion. The feats I talk about add +1 to all inspirations (Song of Heart), +2 to AB (Battle Dancer), uses charisma to boost AB for a short period followed by fatigue penalty (Snowflake dance), substitue perform for concentrate (Meloditic Casting) removes any ability penalties (March of King), and increases perform skill. (Epic Skill Focus: Perform, and Dragonsong)

What tactics a bard can use or gameplay style you can use has nothibv to do with adding in those feats. The topic isn't whether a bard can or can't do something, but why hasn't the bard gotten any new fears. Like any other topic, I don't get my question answered or I get intellectually dishonest answer.

[ARHicks00]

Yeah, calling bards weak is a pretty heavy lift IMHO. Not as heavy of a lift as calling FvS weak but its up there for certain.

I really liken them to wizzies in many ways. They are delicate in early levels then just hit beast mode at some point and become incredibly hard to kill.

Yeah whoever said Bards are weak need a finger wagging

[ARHicks00]

The answer to the question is that bards are already one of the strongest base classes there is no desire to make them even more powerful.

Except the feats I suggested doesn't make them more powerful rather reinforces the bard theme. It seems I get a whole lot of intellectually dishonest and a huge paranoia of imaginary game breaking bard.

[Steve]

The topic isn't whether a bard can or can't do something, but why hasn't the bard gotten any new fears.

Have you looked at any of the Custom Combat Feats on BGTSCC? https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... and_Styles

Have you ever looked at One Weapon for your build(s)?

A Feat that grants +1 to Inspiration or +2 to AB or +X to Perform DOES make a Bard more powerful, because a +1 and up IS a mechanical bonus!

[ARHicks00]

A Feat that grants +1 to Inspiration or +2 to AB or +X to Perform DOES make a Bard more powerful, because a +1 and up IS a mechanical bonus!

Go back and read the damage output as well as accumulated AC when compared to a pure fighter. The only thing people are afraid if are songs, which you can defend against using energy immunity or out damaging their heal. (That and increase mobs dampened the effects) Mobs are not a problem for most melee classes a fighter with high AC would not die easy unless the NPC AC goes over 35. If a naked Bard can beat a Balor easy then I imagine a fighter with armor on can achieve the same. Not to mention scrolls and potions that give peopke the same spell effect as a bard.

+1 to inspiration wouldn't make him more dangerous. Again topic is done, this not a pissing contest.