The Anti-Mage

[Rain]

2) Moonblade is a weapon that applies its damage as a "touch attack" not like a normal on hit weapon. Because of this there is no damage bonuses that apply to moonblade you will only get the base damage of 1d8+10 (+30 vs undead) no matter what buffs you have on.

What about sneak attack? I suppose it would require Arcane Trickster?

Not even sneak attacks. (Arcane Trickster is ARCANE ONLY). Only druid and cleric get moonblade / flameblade

[Stolcor]

2) Moonblade is a weapon that applies its damage as a "touch attack" not like a normal on hit weapon. Because of this there is no damage bonuses that apply to moonblade you will only get the base damage of 1d8+10 (+30 vs undead) no matter what buffs you have on.

What about sneak attack? I suppose it would require Arcane Trickster?

Not even sneak attacks. (Arcane Trickster is ARCANE ONLY). Only druid and cleric get moonblade / flameblade

I realize it's arcane to qualify for the class, but there nothing clearly says that, once you have it, that it doesn't apply to all touch spells. The wiki for AT says it applies to RTA spells, but doesn't specify arcane spells (probably because no one thought a person would try to cross-class in this particular, odd way)

I also found this on the forum:

...It gains no additional effects that other touch attacks do not gain. This means that you could sneak attack or death attack with it if you also have the arcane trickster class. There are no other ways to improve the damage beyond improved critical(sword or melee touch attack) or weapon specialization (sword or melee touch attack) as it is still a spell effect not a melee attack...

Again, if anyone has actually tried the AT Sneak Attack on Moonblade (or any cleric spell), please let me know. If it's totally impossible, then ignore the rest.

A Cleric/Harper Agent/Assassin/Arcane Trickster could theoretically have Moonblade and Sneak Attack on RTA while keeping the 3b20. You'd need the Harper Agent (not priest) to leverage enough Hide and Move Silently to qualify for Assassin in time to gain 3rd level spells for AT. Could just go rogue, but at least HA keeps some spellcaster progression. Could even end up with 9th level cleric spells and keeping moonblade's bonus at +9. Without a High WIS focus and CL 30, the Shaundakul's Binding wouldn't have a great DC anyway, so it's all about HIPS, Pilfer Magic, and Moonblade to undermine mages. Pick Ellistraee and you get Luck domain with Moon. A sneaky anti-mage drow/half-drow? Could work

I guess you could flip it and get the minimal 5 Cleric levels for a single use of Moonblade and then go for as much Arcane CL as possible, maybe via Wiz/EK/AT? Better AB, but no HIPS and Moonblade stops a +2 (3 if you go C 6 for second 3rd level spell)

I know this is crazy and probably not very effective, but I'm enjoying the theorycraft and thinking of possibilities.

[Okan]

Some small issues there.

1) I'm preety sure Harper Priest is a cleric only PRC. You can't combine druid and Harper Priest.

according to wiki: "Able to cast 3rd-level divine spells (except Ranger and Paladin, see Harper Scout)."

I have not tried a druid harper priest myself and I am not sure if it would be a sensible choice regarding synergies but considering Silvanus, Miellikki, Eldath, and Lurue have boons as class features and both clerics and druids originally being "priest" kits in AD&D, I would be surprised if druids cant take Harper Priest.

[Rain]

Some small issues there.

1) I'm preety sure Harper Priest is a cleric only PRC. You can't combine druid and Harper Priest.

according to wiki: "Able to cast 3rd-level divine spells (except Ranger and Paladin, see Harper Scout)."

I have not tried a druid harper priest myself and I am not sure if it would be a sensible choice regarding synergies but considering Silvanus, Miellikki, Eldath, and Lurue have boons as class features and both clerics and druids originally being "priest" kits in AD&D, I would be surprised if druids cant take Harper Priest.

Ive already clarified my over-sight about this.

[Rain]

What about sneak attack? I suppose it would require Arcane Trickster?

Not even sneak attacks. (Arcane Trickster is ARCANE ONLY). Only druid and cleric get moonblade / flameblade

I realize it's arcane to qualify for the class, but there nothing clearly says that, once you have it, that it doesn't apply to all touch spells. The wiki for AT says it applies to RTA spells, but doesn't specify arcane spells (probably because no one thought a person would try to cross-class in this particular, odd way)

I also found this on the forum:

...It gains no additional effects that other touch attacks do not gain. This means that you could sneak attack or death attack with it if you also have the arcane trickster class. There are no other ways to improve the damage beyond improved critical(sword or melee touch attack) or weapon specialization (sword or melee touch attack) as it is still a spell effect not a melee attack...

Again, if anyone has actually tried the AT Sneak Attack on Moonblade (or any cleric spell), please let me know. If it's totally impossible, then ignore the rest.

A Cleric/Harper Agent/Assassin/Arcane Trickster could theoretically have Moonblade and Sneak Attack on RTA while keeping the 3b20. You'd need the Harper Agent (not priest) to leverage enough Hide and Move Silently to qualify for Assassin in time to gain 3rd level spells for AT. Could just go rogue, but at least HA keeps some spellcaster progression. Could even end up with 9th level cleric spells and keeping moonblade's bonus at +9. Without a High WIS focus and CL 30, the Shaundakul's Binding wouldn't have a great DC anyway, so it's all about HIPS, Pilfer Magic, and Moonblade to undermine mages. Pick Ellistraee and you get Luck domain with Moon. A sneaky anti-mage drow/half-drow? Could work

I guess you could flip it and get the minimal 5 Cleric levels for a single use of Moonblade and then go for as much Arcane CL as possible, maybe via Wiz/EK/AT? Better AB, but no HIPS and Moonblade stops a +2 (3 if you go C 6 for second 3rd level spell)

I know this is crazy and probably not very effective, but I'm enjoying the theorycraft and thinking of possibilities.

I mean. . . On paper it sounds cool? Numbers wise from the math ive done already you would be very un-happy with the results although the uniqueness of the build may out-weigh that! Because i'll tell you what I would have never though of mixing arcane trickster with moonblade. Now being realistic this definitely is not a build you would want to level up. . . That's a given from this math. . . However RCRing into this to come back around 16 or 17? Actually not a terrible build to just muscle mobs with for free unresistant-able positive damage sneak attacks. I like the thought process put into this! Nice theory-crafting.

[metaquad4]

In reference to using Moonblade with Arcane Trickster:

When you start cross-classing like that though, you'll also have to accept certain things. Such as basic mobs being able to strip you of your spells (a death sentence), moonblade having trouble bypassing SR (it needs to do this, especially in later PvE. By have trouble, I mean you just won't be able to do it most of the time), and the fact that leveling will be a real pain/impossible (even from a higher level, because most of your tools are seriously gimped in PvE).

NWN2 tends to be a game of specialization when it comes to building. If you try to go for a bunch of stuff and don't specialize - at best - you'll just end up being subpar in everything. At worst (like in this case), your tools will become worthless.

Anyway -

I'd advocate for either:

A wizard build. Mords is the one of the two best anti-magic spells in the game (the other being Moonblade from the Moon Domain).

A cleric of Malar, as was suggested. Moon and Animal Domains. Natural Bond + Epic Animal Companion, 10 Cleric/5 Thaumaturge/5 Harper Priest/10 Hierophant. If you like playing a minion master, this is a good one. Tons of summons, and you go in swinging your moonblade. You don't really need to worry about Divine Power, post-nerf, so you can devote your spells to buffs and ignore it. You'll want to take monstrous humanoid to fully take advantage of your cleric spellbook on your companion.

A cleric of Selune. Moon Domain and Another One. Same build as with the Malar cleric, it is slightly less effective due to the loss of animal domain and thus the loss of a potent companion - but it is still OK.

Phantom 21/Assassin 9. This one is a little trickier, since you can't give the wizard time to buff, but you can alternate ghost step and HiPs to become practically untouchable while you have uses/day. If you trigger either ability at the right time, their cast will even be expended and wasted. This one takes a bit of timing and luck (they cannot be pre-buffed otherwise you'll have a bad time and have to kite with breach-wands).

[Stolcor]

In reference to using Moonblade with Arcane Trickster:

When you start cross-classing like that though, you'll also have to accept certain things. Such as basic mobs being able to strip you of your spells (a death sentence), moonblade having trouble bypassing SR (it needs to do this, especially in later PvE. By have trouble, I mean you just won't be able to do it most of the time), and the fact that leveling will be a real pain/impossible (even from a higher level, because most of your tools are seriously gimped in PvE).

NWN2 tends to be a game of specialization when it comes to building. If you try to go for a bunch of stuff and don't specialize - at best - you'll just end up being subpar in everything. At worst (like in this case), your tools will become worthless.

Anyway -

I'd advocate for either:

A wizard build. Mords is the one of the two best anti-magic spells in the game (the other being Moonblade from the Moon Domain).

A cleric of Malar, as was suggested. Moon and Animal Domains. Natural Bond + Epic Animal Companion, 10 Cleric/5 Thaumaturge/5 Harper Priest/10 Hierophant. If you like playing a minion master, this is a good one. Tons of summons, and you go in swinging your moonblade. You don't really need to worry about Divine Power, post-nerf, so you can devote your spells to buffs and ignore it. You'll want to take monstrous humanoid to fully take advantage of your cleric spellbook on your companion.

A cleric of Selune. Moon Domain and Another One. Same build as with the Malar cleric, it is slightly less effective due to the loss of animal domain and thus the loss of a potent companion - but it is still OK.

Phantom 21/Assassin 9. This one is a little trickier, since you can't give the wizard time to buff, but you can alternate ghost step and HiPs to become practically untouchable while you have uses/day. If you trigger either ability at the right time, their cast will even be expended and wasted. This one takes a bit of timing and luck (they cannot be pre-buffed otherwise you'll have a bad time and have to kite with breach-wands).

Yeah, I kind of gave up on that idea with some further thought. Would be fun in concept, but useless.

What about a pure monk? Or M27/SD3 for near max SR plus HIPS? That's where I'm leaning atm (if I don't pull the trigger on the Cavestalker first)
Adamantine fists to get around DR, Fast Movement, Ki Step, and it's a nearly-non magic-reliant build that counters magic to fit the RP concept more.

[Domovoi]

You'd need to jump some very weird hoops to justify a Harper Priest Cleric of Malar...

[spyvsspy]

The first thing I image for an anti-mage is knockdown. Lay them down, don't let them cast

So why not a str based monk or str based some other class? Maybe pally or barb with imp-knockdown becaus they can buff str well. Or animal domain cleric because pet can also knockdown (moon domain not necessary)

I like the cleric/hierophant/harper priest/thaumatugre with animal domain and imp-knockdown. Then try to let all of your pets able to knockdown. The mage will always lay on the ground

[metaquad4]

What about a pure monk? Or M27/SD3 for near max SR plus HIPS? That's where I'm leaning atm (if I don't pull the trigger on the Cavestalker first)
Adamantine fists to get around DR, Fast Movement, Ki Step, and it's a nearly-non magic-reliant build that counters magic to fit the RP concept more.

Monk has its issues too.

For one, Monk SR is 10+Monk Level. 5 less than a Hierophant Caster.

For another, to push that Monk SR higher you need to start devoting epic feats to it. Which means less AB, less AC, potentially no expose weakness, possibly other issues.

Adamantine Fists are convenient, but once you get an adamantine weapon then any martial build will over-shadow it.

Fast Movement is always good, but Battletide can do this as well. So cleric wins here too.

Ki Step is admittedly alright and a unique factor. Though less useful in a fight, since you'll want to save those uses for fiery fist/stunning fist (Ki Step is more for running away). And it isn't enough to make up for what you lose.

By contrast:

Your cleric will have 2 summons and potentially an monstrous humanoid companion - which means you can sic them on the mage and body-block to prevent a running retreat.

Once you get up close, Moonblade will pretty much guarantee that the mage can't cast any spells if you can get a hit off. Even if you get debuffed first, Moonblade will mess them up.

You'll have spell resistance (you'll end up with 45 SR, which means they need need a 35 CL to have a 50/50 chance of landing a spell on you - provided the spell does not bypass SR like Orbs). In PvE, you'll rarely get hit by spells. You'll also have mantles, for when you need absolute immunity.

You'll have dimensional anchor and dimensional lock as well. Which is good for your magehunter RP and in practice with players. You can nullify teleportation, something that only another wizard/cleric can do.

If you take the appropriate feat with Harper Agent, you can force the mage to pull a reflex save or they won't be able to cast for a long enough time that they'll be dead before it is over. You won't even need this though, this is just icing on a very delicious cake.

The first thing I image for an anti-mage is knockdown. Lay them down, don't let them cast

So why not a str based monk or str based some other class? Maybe pally or barb with imp-knockdown becaus they can buff str well. Or animal domain cleric because pet can also knockdown (moon domain not necessary)

I like the cleric/hierophant/harper priest/thaumatugre with animal domain and imp-knockdown. Then try to let all of your pets able to knockdown. The mage will always lay on the ground

Imp-Knockdown might be OK for low STR wizards, but for the cleric moon route, it won't be reliable. You'll want to focus on WIS since Moonblade doesn't benefit from STR, so you won't have a whole lot to back up that KD.

Also, KD can be blocked by mirror images just like any other attack. So it doesn't tend to be overly reliable if they are buffed.

That said, KD can be useful. That is true. You could also try mixing in shield slam. I'm not sure how reliable the whole build would be, certainly not as reliable for antimagic as the Moon Cleric. But probably decent?

[Stolcor]

Monk has its issues too.

For one, Monk SR is 10+Monk Level. 5 less than a Hierophant Caster.

For another, to push that Monk SR higher you need to start devoting epic feats to it. Which means less AB, less AC, potentially no expose weakness, possibly other issues.

Adamantine Fists are convenient, but once you get an adamantine weapon then any martial build will over-shadow it.

Fast Movement is always good, but Battletide can do this as well. So cleric wins here too.

Ki Step is admittedly alright and a unique factor. Though less useful in a fight, since you'll want to save those uses for fiery fist/stunning fist (Ki Step is more for running away). And it isn't enough to make up for what you lose.

You make a compelling argument sir. I didn't realize the SR spell was that good (or that it's min/level - practically all day if extended). This just confirms my belief that clerics are always top-tier. It could be dispelled but with CL that high, it's not likely.

As someone said above, animal companion+moon (Malar only) with Harper Priest makes very little sense since Malar followers and the Harpers were in direct conflict at least at one point, but you did say that was just icing. Besides, I'm not digging a Malar priest... though there's some RP value to a "hunter cleric" who focuses into mage-hunting. I'd enjoy seeing that even if I might not enjoy playing it.

Still, and this is the most important question, which is more fun to play, a HIPSing Monk or the Cleric? I feel like buff-n-bash gets old and combat is always so straightforward: I buff up and beat you down, toss a spell or two when I need to. There's also constant spell and ability management, vulnerability when not buffed. But a Ki-Stepping, HIPSing monk has more tactical jumping around, hiding, kiting, etc. to give combat more texture. And he is always ready, less tedious spell management. Your thoughts?

[chad878262]

You got the nail on the head...
Gish is generally going to be relatively boring while builds with lots of clickies both allow and in some cases FORCE you to approach battles using different tactics depending on the enemy... charge/ kd to get to casters quickly and put them down, avoid with hips, stunning fist, etc.

That said metaquad is absolutely correct for pvp wis cleric is likely the only thing that, player skill being equal, competes with wizard.... other than another wizard or sorc.

[metaquad4]

Even in PvE, I think a Moonblade cleric will be less painful than your monk option. You don't require as many buffs yourself b/c Moonblade is a touch attack (no need for divine power, since it doesn't grant BAB), though buffing your summons takes some time. You'll have a lot of mass buffs to expedite your ritual though, so it isn't too bad.

If you are OK with the post-rest buffing ritual (line your buffs up, take a break while they fire off) then you'll have a good time.

If you can't stand that (some people can't!) then I'd say your best bet is to go with a martial build.

Beyond the buffing ritual, both play pretty similar in the end. Both have their fair share of ability management, though you won't be kistepping very often (it stops your attack flow). You'll mostly be HiPs->Attack->Hips->Attack. The summoner will do Attack->Tell Summons To Attack->Occasionally Heal.

[Steve]

Moonblade puts a stacking spell failure of 20% per hit to the person you hit it with.

The wiki entry for Moonblade does not state that the spell failure stacks. Can someone confirm, since this should definitely be updated.

Alternatively one can get some Jar of Hornets and toss them out between HiPS, which cause 30% spell failure!

As the discussion has gone, it seems the OP title should be changed to “The Mage Killer,” since an anti-mage idea, at least for me, would be a Character that eschews magic totally—at least non-innate magic unlike item enchantments.

[zhazz]

I would personally like to see a PrC added that focuses on hindering and/or defeating spell-casters.

There are already some good resources out there to draw upon, such as the Mage-Killer from the book Magic of Faerun (3.5 ed).

Over on Sigil they also have an interesting take on such a class concept. It is incredibly strong, but also come with a lot of downsides, including not being able to use potions, wands, or scrolls. Even with UMD. That class is the Mage Slayer.

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All that being said, I think it is possible to create a Mage Killer/Anti-Mage on the server. It just require an unorthodox approach.

Man-at-Arms 23 / Paladin 3 / Anointed Knight 4
Attribute focus: Charisma (adds to saves and ability DCs), and Strength (adds to AB and Dmg)
Skill focus: Spellcraft (adds to saves vs spells), and Tumble (adds to armor class), UMD (for wands)
Feat focus: Improved Knockdown, Steadfast Determination

With the class, skill, and feat choices above you get:

• Armored Efficiency (20% elemental resistance)
• Indomitable Soul (reroll Will saves)
• Epic Resilience (no auto-fail saves on natural 1)
• Steadfast Determination (use Con mod for will saves)
• Blind-Fight (helps against concealment)
• 28+ all Saves +6 vs spells (before buffs)
• ~450 Hit Points
• ~40 AB
• ~52 AC

Improved Knockdown will be you go-to choice against casters. They can't cast if they're on their backs.

Both Daunting Challenge and Demoralize Opponent from Man-at-Arms will apply the following to an enemy:
-2 attack bonus, -2 all saves, -2 all skills, -1 DEX, -1 STR

While they do not stack, they can combine to cause panic, which does stack:
-2 attack bonus, -2 damage, -2 all saves, and forcing them to take no action other then to run away from nearby creatures

The downside of course being that both Daunting Challenge and Demoralize Opponent are Will Saves, and enemies immune to Mind Effects are also immune to these. Which means in PvP it likely won't be as useful due to Mind Blank.