Requesting Rule Change about more then on PC per guild

[Calodan]

So let's put it plainly.

No one will bat an eye at you for having more than one PC in the same guild. However, as per general rule, as in, applicable to all PCs of a single player(alts) whether they are, or not, in the same guild, they can never speak to each other.

This does however beg the question... how is this to be enforced or policed even? what's to stop a character from just posting a note on the staff board of the guild that everyone in the guild can read? what if there are other people, and playerA alt1 goes to playerB character and shares info, playerA then shows up with alt2 and playerB relays that same information that alt1 had said to alt2?

and the question i really want to ask, that may be a bit outside of the scope of this thread, but definitely related:
if the above are issues that make you prohibit more than one alt of the same player in the same guild due to share of information (metagaming), then why are we allowing players to have alts in different guilds and factions, often times opposing ones where the damage of metagaming is much much higher?

It was my understanding it was quite literal that alternate and main PCs in the same guild could never speak to EACH OTHER. Meaning directly. Guild information put on the boards that is supposed to be disseminated to all in the guild is however to my knowledge not considered DIRECT but in fact it is a different medium. So guild posts are allowed in the assumption that certain details not in the posts is not common knowledge among all your PCs.
The main part of the entire rule was no direct contact I.E. a player can not say Main PC talked to Alt PC and gave them all the info. However Main PC can leave GUILD messages and reports that all can see within the guild. Since a single player's ALT PC never counts as numbers in terms of the guilds members under 4. The ALT PC is still a guild member.
As far as meta gaming.....That is whole topic of how do we even police that? Having been on this server for some time that is a huge issue that never really gets solved other than you just gotta trust players and the admin to take care of it and just play your PC at the time.

[Lambert]

I agree with this. Posting on the Discord/Forum guild posts is a better way.

Moving forward, any Zau'afin not following that is in contradiction to the server wishes and my personal preferences as well.

It is annoying when people do this so if I did this I can see how it would annoy other people. Now that it is clear in my mind I will always use Discord or Forum posts to transfer information.

I appreciate the maturity and patience of those who have been kind to me in my failings.

[renshouj]

It was my understanding it was quite literal that alternate and main PCs in the same guild could never speak to EACH OTHER. Meaning directly. Guild information put on the boards that is supposed to be disseminated to all in the guild is however to my knowledge not considered DIRECT but in fact it is a different medium.

The rule explicitly says to "never, under no circumstances, exchange information between each other". Just randomly "posting it" it to the whole guild (and what happens when you have 3+ alts in that guild?) is literally a free break of the rule if your interpretation of it was correct. In spirit, it most certainly isnt correct and is a break of the rule, though as many have said it is not something easy to police. Still, even though it is difficult to police doesnt mean people should be freely doing it, especially coming from an UD player that should understand how harmful metagaming can be, as I know UD players (and many evil-aligned characters in general) have suffered from it greatly.

In general, any type of exchange of information between characters of the same player - sending IC letters, leaving IC breadcrumbs, posting in a public board with the intent of "spontaneously" learning it on an alt - is against the spirit if not the letter of the rule.

edit: re-reading this it may seem like I'm calling out lambert on metagaming and I must clarify that I'm not. While I have not interacted that much with him, every single interaction I had IC with them as a player was fantastic. Great RPer and a very chill player, though I do think he should cool off on having so many zauafin alts and focus more on the matron

[Steve]

From my experience metagaming happens in all kinds of contexts and is unfortunate, but again happens, and some of it is impossible to avoid. Humans being humans.

You are not wrong. I'd go so far to say almost all players metagame at one time or another—or consistently...—however, it usually has no affect on another player or event, thus it should be considered harmless.

...and the question i really want to ask, that may be a bit outside of the scope of this thread, but definitely related:
if the above are issues that make you prohibit more than one alt of the same player in the same guild due to share of information (metagaming), then why are we allowing players to have alts in different guilds and factions, often times opposing ones where the damage of metagaming is much much higher?

It's often frowned upon, and some Guilds have traditionally made it an OOC Rule that any member cannot have an alt in another opposing faction/guild, specifically in order to reduce any intentional or unintentional metagaming. Yes, there are a handful of ways to be sneaky about it.

The bigger picture point I'd like to make is to good sportsmanship. That is: a player should be responsible to NOT metagame where it will have a negative effect—either IC or OOC—on another player or players. That said, I do realize there are some players that "get off" on winning over others, which is where metagaming has it worst manifestation. Unfortunately, BGTSCC has had to enact as many Rules as possible to deter this behavior, under threat of expulsion from the community.

As to Lambert's specific situation: one doesn't need to have multiple PCs in a single guild to enact/partake/support RP. If alts exist in order to help others through leveling, than guild related stuff should just be ignored. However, if Lambert has multiple guild-oriented PCs because Lam is a alt-o'-holic, and just likes many different Characters to role-play, but ALSO wants to build up a guild...well, it is a conundrum in that Lambert doesn't mean to do this to "ruin" others game experience, yet is possible going to "get in trouble" if issues would come into the RP that seem metagaming has occurred. And then the DMs have to get involved...and then perhaps some drama...and so on and so on.

Really though, the onus is on the player to strive for good sportsmanship, and not choose willingly themselves and their mates at risk of metagaming which might lead to upsetting the other that you game with. And if the responsibility is with the player, then when and if it goes bad, said player needs to accept the resulting circumstances (which could lead to banishment). It's happened before on BGTSCC, and could happen again!

[Calodan]

It was my understanding it was quite literal that alternate and main PCs in the same guild could never speak to EACH OTHER. Meaning directly. Guild information put on the boards that is supposed to be disseminated to all in the guild is however to my knowledge not considered DIRECT but in fact it is a different medium.

The rule explicitly says to "never, under no circumstances, exchange information between each other". Just randomly "posting it" it to the whole guild (and what happens when you have 3+ alts in that guild?) is literally a free break of the rule if your interpretation of it was correct. In spirit, it most certainly isnt correct and is a break of the rule, though as many have said it is not something easy to police. Still, even though it is difficult to police doesnt mean people should be freely doing it, especially coming from an UD player that should understand how harmful metagaming can be, as I know UD players (and many evil-aligned characters in general) have suffered from it greatly.

In general, any type of exchange of information between characters of the same player - sending IC letters, leaving IC breadcrumbs, posting in a public board with the intent of "spontaneously" learning it on an alt - is against the spirit if not the letter of the rule.

edit: re-reading this it may seem like I'm calling out lambert on metagaming and I must clarify that I'm not. While I have not interacted that much with him, every single interaction I had IC with them as a player was fantastic. Great RPer and a very chill player, though I do think he should cool off on having so many zauafin alts and focus more on the matron

So here is the thing. Your main or alt may have information that needs to be posted to the guild. Since that is legal RP through guild forum for all the guild. If the server has a no meta gaming rule then at that point it would in fact be meta gaming to ignore the information posted publicly for the guild. One does not post the information directly for the alt pc but for the guild. The important part is that the guild already exists and is recognized by the server since the guild would have a forum page that they and their guild members can access privately. The other meta gaming would be that either or of the main or alt pc saying so and so sent me about the other. The main or alt PC would simply state I am here on official guild business and then start RPing whatever is happening at the moment. It actually was way more common for guild players to have a couple PCs in a guild than you know. With the exception of a few select groups that specifically do not allow any PC other than a main in the guild. Some guilds used to require you were active on that main only during your time with them do to the super secret squirrel nature.

[selhan]

I commend any leader of a faction that stays passionate in the growth of it and tries to ensure their faction thrives with activity and bring forth Rp to the community. Its not an easy thing especially in this day in age for the nwn2 community. I personally dont see anything wrong with having alts in a faction so long as those alts are not sharing information even by proxy, and we dont go overboard making a dozen alts and claim activity. One active player that IS Active is more than enough for me to say its at least active.

For me dead is where only one member in the faction that doesnt do a damn thing period. Loot grind dont count. Show evident of Rp, forum post, attempts to recruiting. That to me is effort and activity considered in my book, ofc others may not agree.

Ideally it would be best to keep alts in designated roles like Messenger, crafter etc. Something harmless. I do understand some people enjoy playing alts because they can try out different personals and builds. But there needs to be a fine line when it comes to sharing knowledge and information.

But all things considered,
Alts do not make up the roster of the faction nor will count towards as such.
Information shared between alts is not valid.

We all should be stern when it comes to metagaming. Accidents may happen but if so, it needs to be corrected. No exceptions. Because if we start given exceptions, no one will take rp seriously and you start having more ppl that goes around boldly metagaming and ruining other ppls gameplay.

[Rinzler]

1. I don’t think alts should count as additional guild membership - aka as Gimli said “That still only counts as one.”

2. I think you can have multiple alts in the same guild (with some clearly defined rules), but as mentioned in #1 above they don’t count towards the official guild membership roster.

3. If server leadership decides that you cannot have multiple alts in the same guild, then there should also be rules preventing players having multiple PCs in different guilds. Especially if the guilds are thematically opposed to one another.

4. It might be worth reevaluating the qualifications of what makes a guild “active” given the decline in player population over the years.

5. As a counter to my own #4 point above, maybe it doesn’t make sense to lower the standards as I also think there’s probably too many guilds and an overall guild consolidation might be a good thing.

[DaloLorn]

#1 and #2 are accurate to current rulings, yes.

If #3 comes through, you might as well have rules preventing players having multiple PCs, period.

I don't think we'll see much consolidation from #5: There's not nearly enough benefit to officially having your own guild for people to view it as somehow important. My most successful PCs have typically not been in guilds, at least not any guilds that managed to qualify for guild perks.

[Rask]

I've seen guilds where its just one player with their main and their multiple alts. It can get pretty silly...

[Lockonnow]

and thats is why many have more then one account so we sould think that it is a new player