Requesting Rule Change about more then on PC per guild

[Lambert]

An angry unhappy drow bleets

Greetings autobots and decepticons!

I hope everyone is doing good and had a nice Halloween. I have enjoyed playing on the server for the last two years or so but Houstin, we have a problem!

So in brief, this is a request to reverse the decision to only allow 1 pc per Guild. As some may know I have several Zau'afins. Ok fine I have enough to start a soccer team but admit it they are all awesome and cool looking. One great player and team member who I have much affinity for has advised me that they do not wish to stay in the guild because they are afraid of breaking this DM rule, but otherwise like me and would like to stay in the guild as they enjoy playing in it. The implication is I must forfeit about 4-5 other toons for them to stay, which if i have to be honest I'm not ready to do.

The rule is in place to prevent alleged meta gaming that supposedly can disrupt rp. For me information access for limited information between characters (mostly Guild history) is only possible if the player does not die and sufficient time has passed, but I have not noted any problems with this issue in game, with the exceptions of two players taking issue with my supposed rule breaking (which I didn't know about for the first two year after my return as I'm not a regular BG player and was not directly advised), and one of whom just frankly has an axe to grind and is antagonistic because they do not like me personally as a player and will log off when I am around (wait isn't that meta gaming?).

My problem with this rule is that I have been in the BG UD recently for four years and have had limited DM contact and limited player contact, and am often bored playing in BG without the ability to access different characters within my guild. I do have a surface toon named Aloria ap Ravar, but again I find it boring to play her for some reason. I frankly don't know why that is. Maybe it is because I am fully invested in attempting to create an authentic Qu'ellar experience, without the benefit of almost any players who like to play lothites on the server. So, creating a Qu'ellar experience with one toon is rediculous because walking around as a Matron without almost any followers is sort of meta intself as it is claming power and influence without the backing of a real team making such claims authentic. Also, why would a Matron engage in raids or leave the safety of her compound on a daily basis to hunt or search for loot? Makes no sense. What else is there to do in the UD half the time? I go out of my way to rp and to push lothian rp for regular players, old players, and new players whenever I can. I even kindly engage people who don't like me, and although I am skilled in PvP generally don't use it to win, just to further rp, will gladly surrender my victim if it enhances the other players experience (who cares I have nothing to prove). I don't need to win, which also makes such caution about meta gaming for me foolish because it's not about the win, it's about the player experience for me, but I realize not everyone plays like that and winning is important for them. As far as my playing a variety of toons as impacting their player experinces I haven't had any one annoyed because I was doing so, only because i wasn't supposed to do it.

I seriously doubt that only one toon per guild actually limits meta gaming as any toon played anywhere on the surface or UD would provide the player with meta knowledge, regardless of the guild affiliation. Also, players generally enjoy having more than one toon per the guild they are in, for the purpose of dynamic fun. Limiting it to just one toon seemingly takes away from the fun of a game designed for multiple toons with different backgrounds and histories. While some players like to play the same toon over many many years and just rp that one toon, many players do not like this at all. Good luck keeping a larger server with that approach. I actually don't think it is healthy to play only one toon as players can get over-attached and take things even more personally then usual when somethings does not go their way.

Lastly, while players who play one toon and generally only one toon may be following this rule per guild, they may use meta knowledge, or even personal dislike of a player, not to interact with a player regardless of the toon they play. I have often felt that players wouldn't play with me not because they didn't dislike me, but because I wasn't part of their regular player crowd they have been playing with for years. Isn't that meta? Lack of generosity maybe. The point here is meta policing while is noble in spirit and pursuit, when over applied limits the server as it stands now, and at times is impractical.

If we had a server with lots and lots of UD players, I would have much less interest in playing multiple toons, but as it stands, the UD has been extremely bare for years, and I have found it useful in enhancing the player experience of my peers by having multiple toons. It gives players the ability to experience the hardness of my Matron, the silliness of my sarglitin Bardax, the administrative a emotionality of Nefara the Faern, the insane cruelty of Yathrin Dirza, and the immaturity and stupdity of Dilrae my sarglitin to name a few. In another server I played in for many years I only had 1 toon and it was my UD toon Dilarra Zau'afin. However, that server was bustling with activity and thus kept me engaged with my one character. I never felt the need to play more than just her nor did I want to. But in BG there is NO guild activity, no PvP, no real danger or challenge. The only challenge my toons have as Lothites is that the UD is more set up for non-lothite rp and lothites are often hated by said groups. So playing a lothite is almost a non-native experience in this server.

While some have more recently pointed out my flagrant disregard for this rule, I disregard it because frankly it is counter intuitive to this game and impacts the fun I have in it. Having a player tell me they don't want to return to the guild that I've worked so hard for also impacts my fun. The rule is ridiculous in a prima facea way, point in fact- that no one has ever enforced it in four years. Not one staff member has ever enforced this rule with me. While one player has commented they would not play in the guild for fear of breaking server rules, most are fine with it, and if enforced I would likely discontinue playing this server or severely limit my time in it.

So let me know if you are going to continue this rule because frankly it is causing me problems in the UD and I've been nothing but solicitious to players on both servers.

I think you have to be very careful about expecting people to fit your vision prescriptions for the server. You may find it limits the number of players you have. Please fix this problem for me as soon as possible by reversing your rule on the matter.

Sincerely,

Lambert

IN SUMMARY:
1) Would you please undo this rule so my teammate can have joy and comfort joining the guild without fear of upsetting staff?
2) If you will not undo this rule are you going to actually enforce it as I have clearly been breaking this rule for four years now without any official complaint from a recognized staff member or punishment? Otherwise please let me know that this is a rule that will continue to be unenforced and thus meaningless rule. Therefore, your inadvertently advising everyone that they can thus continue to ignore this rule as I have.
3) Advise me that you will enforce this rule thus causing me to severely limit my time on this server and force me to retro countless hours of rp and do in fact tell me what the punishment is for said actions should be since I've been breaking this silly rule for four years?

I may be a drow.... but you don't have to hate me... or assume I'm evil!

[Tanlaus]

On a purely practical anti-metagaming note, it makes more sense to have all your PCs loyal to one faction than spread across multiple factions that may come into conflict with each other.

[Rinzler]

I don’t see why you can have multiple PCs in different guilds but can’t have multiple PCs in the same guild.

[Calodan]

What rule? Some guilds have rules for this but that is THEIR guild rules. Last I knew the server just doesn't recognize a single player playing 4 PCs as a guild. You can have multiple PCs but they do not count for numbers in the sense of getting a guild hall and I thought guild page for the forum.
I did take a 5 year break so unless the rule changed in that time that is how it was when I left. Having started up a few guilds myself and or maintained some for others for a time.

[Goat]

I don’t see why you can have multiple PCs in different guilds but can’t have multiple PCs in the same guild.

Typically it's because when you are all in one guild, you use all your characters to your advantage is why. I don't recall any specific rule on this, but the meta rules will pretty much make this impossible or very hard 'to' be in the same guild.

For example you are the leader of a group, then you use another character to spy on someone, then feed it all back to your own original character. You do all the things needed, just by yourself. It's extremely meta breaking, and it has happened to I before too. You're not supposed to feed information to other characters you own, and if you're in the same guild, it's very 'hard' not too. People on top will break this rule by simply going to the second in command, another person, etc, So its like

You/Leader alt -> Second in command
Second in command -> Tells your alt.
Your alt does something -> Back to second to command with info
Second in command -> You/Leader alt

The above is punishable too, but it's hard to police now that you're in the same guild, with the same alts. Your information is not supposed to be traded among alts. It will be difficult to know, and I fear that borderline things will occur.

People will do this far more if it was allowed is why I'd be completely hesitant too. I trust less meta occurring vs people in separate guilds, though I do agree that it still does 'happen', obviously. I just see the latter being even worse then this now. The difference is you aren't interacting with the same people, so often its easier to also avoid accidental meta, where it's alot easier to do on top of this.

There are other reasons too, but the risk simply is heavier meta, not less, by being in the same faction with all your toons. Your additional toons are supposed to be used as a source of filling in the gaps you lack, RP wise.

2.5 - Metagaming
Any information your character has should be gained from IC sources that are not your alternate characters. Out-of-character information can be helpful to gain context as a player, but by no means should it be used to dictate any aspect of in-character behavior. (Also see 3.5 - Alternate Characters under Mechanics.)

Abusing avenues of communication to facilitate metagaming from others is also prohibited. An example of such an abuse would be your character dying in a zone a long way away, so you set a Scry message or send a Tell for someone to come over to raise you in order to avoid a death penalty.

3.5 - Alternate Characters
BGTSCC imposes no limitation on the amount of Alternate Characters (Alts) you may have, though under certain conditions:
Alts can know of each other, but may never, under no circumstances, exchange information between each other, nor can they be related unless one has been officially retired. This includes "off-screen" interactions, or in general any interaction that involves only you as a player. Alice may know Bob is a Blood Mage, but if the player behind Alice is also playing Charlie, that player cannot have Alice tell Charlie by any means that Bob is a Blood Mage.

The whole fact and reason is if you're using characters to bypass things and feeding information between all your characters, that however is against the rules, yeah. People choose not to be in the same guild because of this, because it's most likely risky, and not fair to others. As I said, you're attempting to fill in gaps/holes using other characters which is unfair to others.

[selhan]

DM Ruling of Topic

Playing Multiple Characters in One Guild
Playing multiple characters in one guild should be avoided if there is any chance that they would know each other or interact with each other. Per the sharing-information-between-characters rules found here, any information your character has should be gained from IC sources that are not your alternate characters. Out-of-character information can be helpful to gain context as a player, but by no means should it be used to dictate any aspect of in-character behavior. If you do have multiple characters in one guild, avoid overlapping them in any way—including only using one character per plotline.

If you do have multiple characters in one guild, they will not be counted toward filling the activity requirements when applying for guild pages, applying for a guild hall, or when obtaining any guild assets. Activity requirements are fulfilled by number of active players, not active characters.

In MY Opinion:
There is nothing wrong with the current rules in regards to the topic. As I quoted and underlined + bold, nothing stops you from having an alt. "HOWEVER"....Those Alts should not be sharing information between each other. Which is a difficult thing to do because if theres one thing you can guarantee in the world, its the laziness of mankind. A player will subject themselves to metagaming because they got too lazy to simply log in the correct alt.

Alt shares information with another guild member = Ok
Alt Shares information with your own characters = Information is not binding/Meta

There has been past incidents with even some current players that failed to uphold the respectable gameplay by preventing such metagaming by the use of alts. Sadly, some even purposely does it for what ever sick reasons. Which is why those people tend to wonder why not many players are interested in playing with them or rping with them. Metagame hurts Role Playing to a very high degree. Preventative measures, means to have a far less likely to metagaming either by intent or by accident should be strongly exercised. Once again this is NOT Table Top where we are a bunch of friends thats going to sit around a table and play DnD and try to create a fun story together. This is a VIDEO Game which many players that dont know each other on a personal level. Conflicts can easily become on a personal level from 0-100 real quick.

[Goat]

DM Ruling of Topic

Playing Multiple Characters in One Guild
Playing multiple characters in one guild should be avoided if there is any chance that they would know each other or interact with each other. Per the sharing-information-between-characters rules found here, any information your character has should be gained from IC sources that are not your alternate characters. Out-of-character information can be helpful to gain context as a player, but by no means should it be used to dictate any aspect of in-character behavior. If you do have multiple characters in one guild, avoid overlapping them in any way—including only using one character per plotline.

If you do have multiple characters in one guild, they will not be counted toward filling the activity requirements when applying for guild pages, applying for a guild hall, or when obtaining any guild assets. Activity requirements are fulfilled by number of active players, not active characters.

In MY Opinion:
There is nothing wrong with the current rules in regards to the topic. As I quoted and underlined + bold, nothing stops you from having an alt. "HOWEVER"....Those Alts should not be sharing information between each other. Which is a difficult thing to do because if theres one thing you can guarantee in the world, its the laziness of mankind. A player will subject themselves to metagaming because they got too lazy to simply log in the correct alt.

Alt shares information with another guild member = Ok
Alt Shares information with your own characters = Information is not binding/Meta

There has been past incidents with even some current players that failed to uphold the respectable gameplay by preventing such metagaming by the use of alts. Sadly, some even purposely does it for what ever sick reasons. Which is why those people tend to wonder why not many players are interested in playing with them or rping with them. Metagame hurts Role Playing to a very high degree. Preventative measures, means to have a far less likely to metagaming either by intent or by accident should be strongly exercised. Once again this is NOT Table Top where we are a bunch of friends thats going to sit around a table and play DnD and try to create a fun story together. This is a VIDEO Game which many players that dont know each other on a personal level. Conflicts can easily become on a personal level from 0-100 real quick.

From what I am aware that topic is obsolete though. I certainly don't wish to use rulings on a post that says 'obsolete' anyways. I'm not even sure why it would be a DM ruling too, its would be a server rule, if it was to be a thing. My issue isn't guilds though, it's about using information to pass along between your own characters, even though grey lines and ways. If an Alt shares info with another in the guild, obv thats no problem. if that other person then goes to your alt to give them information to do something, thats a grey line, because you're just using another to essentially, meta. So I don't exactly have an issue with the guilds themselves, only if you use it for meta reasons.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Hidden: show

DM Ruling of Topic

Playing Multiple Characters in One Guild
Playing multiple characters in one guild should be avoided if there is any chance that they would know each other or interact with each other. Per the sharing-information-between-characters rules found here, any information your character has should be gained from IC sources that are not your alternate characters. Out-of-character information can be helpful to gain context as a player, but by no means should it be used to dictate any aspect of in-character behavior. If you do have multiple characters in one guild, avoid overlapping them in any way—including only using one character per plotline.

If you do have multiple characters in one guild, they will not be counted toward filling the activity requirements when applying for guild pages, applying for a guild hall, or when obtaining any guild assets. Activity requirements are fulfilled by number of active players, not active characters.

In MY Opinion:
There is nothing wrong with the current rules in regards to the topic. As I quoted and underlined + bold, nothing stops you from having an alt. "HOWEVER"....Those Alts should not be sharing information between each other. Which is a difficult thing to do because if theres one thing you can guarantee in the world, its the laziness of mankind. A player will subject themselves to metagaming because they got too lazy to simply log in the correct alt.

Alt shares information with another guild member = Ok
Alt Shares information with your own characters = Information is not binding/Meta

There has been past incidents with even some current players that failed to uphold the respectable gameplay by preventing such metagaming by the use of alts. Sadly, some even purposely does it for what ever sick reasons. Which is why those people tend to wonder why not many players are interested in playing with them or rping with them. Metagame hurts Role Playing to a very high degree. Preventative measures, means to have a far less likely to metagaming either by intent or by accident should be strongly exercised. Once again this is NOT Table Top where we are a bunch of friends thats going to sit around a table and play DnD and try to create a fun story together. This is a VIDEO Game which many players that dont know each other on a personal level. Conflicts can easily become on a personal level from 0-100 real quick.

From what I am aware that topic is obsolete though. I certainly don't wish to use rulings on a post that says 'obsolete' anyways. I'm not even sure why it would be a DM ruling too, its would be a server rule, if it was to be a thing. My issue isn't guilds though, it's about using information to pass along between your own characters, even though grey lines and ways. If an Alt shares info with another in the guild, obv thats no problem. if that other person then goes to your alt to give them information to do something, thats a grey line, because you're just using another to essentially, meta. So I don't exactly have an issue with the guilds themselves, only if you use it for meta reasons.

While the thread was deemed "obsolete for now", there's never been a ruling put into place to overturn the original ruling.

My issue with the idea of multiple toons in the same guild is that I think it would cause a lot more work for DMs/Admin by causing extra oversight. If a guild is large, with many people, there's much less chance of metagaming. However, if the guild is only a few people strong, then it's nearly impossible to not metagame knowledge. This means that if the rule is overturned, DMs and Admin will have to pay much closer attention to each individual in each guild in order to ascertain whether the knowledge was gained legitimately; and the doors would be opened to many more complaints claiming metagaming due to the situation.

The easiest way forward seems to be to retain the ruling, and disallow multiple alts in the same guild.

[renshouj]

The main ruling is simply that PCs with the same player cannot under any circumstance interact with one another. How could you be in the same guild (especially one you are a leader of) and not interact with other PCs - furthermore, what would the point even be? I could see a fringe case where its a more secretive guild and both characters are lackeys, but even then there is a very real possibility that one day the PCs will be required to interact and all you can do is say "no, I cant", or break the rule.

This aint The Sims, if a guild has 6 members but 5 of them are your alts... Thats simply not sustainable. I don't see why this rule (the alt info-sharing) should be overturned, and I do agree it should have some mild consequences for breaking, just like any rule.

Also, Lam, the whole "if you dont abide by this request I'll be forced to play less and retcon RP" is a tired non-argument

[Goat]

if a guild has 6 members but 5 of them are your alts... Thats simply not sustainable. I don't see why this rule (the alt info-sharing) should be overturned, and I do agree it should have some mild consequences for breaking, just like any rule.

When it comes to this rule, it most certainly won't be. That's not a rule I wish to unleash and I think it will cause far too many issues. Unfortunately.

[renshouj]

When it comes to this rule, it most certainly won't be. That's not a rule I wish to unleash and I think it will cause far too many issues. Unfortunately.

Then this whole post is answered. Its never been about alts in the same guild, its always been about the issue of information sharing between alts, about being a one-man guild, about logging over during dm events because "I know a guy that can help...*proceeds to log over to another PC*", etc, and in general the non-interaction that being in a guild with other 4 of yourself is... At that point you're just writing short stories in a google doc.

[Lambert]

I'm not playing a one man guild, I'm playing a guild with historically no DM support, and with only a few players. If there was DM support and enough players, i would be happy and content to play just one or two toons down under. As it stands when I log in there are generally at most a few people and they generally stay in clumps of 2-3.

Only time I generally saw DMs in the UD in the past four year was surface toons having a DM event in the UD.

If there was a living breathing UD I'd be completely happy to not play by myself in the UD and play different toons to keep it going for me.

Thank you for the answer. I see that the purests of their server concepts are holding fast. Maybe this stuff works on the surface. I don't know. This is your server.

I've tried very hard to bring a lothite guild down here for the last four years. Maybe other people are better at knowing all the rules, being leaders, and getting thigns going. I hope you find them. I have been trying to pull drow players back to BG and from other servers. No one wants to come. Most are too busy or too happy where they are.

[Goat]

I wouldn't say it's my server, I've just been given the keys but I still do try to listen to the community as a whole, vote, etc. The general consensus after discussing about it on discord is that the issue 'is' mostly to do with multiple alts and sharing information between them. It's never really been a rule, for good reasons, and most don't think we should open pandoras box there. The guild issue is less of an issue, but sharing information is a problem, which is sort of difficult not to do if you're all in one guild. I do understand the situation is more rough on the Underdark however, though I know Ink and Smile have been helping more on that situation down there from what I am aware.

[BloodRiot]

So let's put it plainly.

No one will bat an eye at you for having more than one PC in the same guild. However, as per general rule, as in, applicable to all PCs of a single player(alts) whether they are, or not, in the same guild, they can never speak to each other.

This does however beg the question... how is this to be enforced or policed even? what's to stop a character from just posting a note on the staff board of the guild that everyone in the guild can read? what if there are other people, and playerA alt1 goes to playerB character and shares info, playerA then shows up with alt2 and playerB relays that same information that alt1 had said to alt2?

and the question i really want to ask, that may be a bit outside of the scope of this thread, but definitely related:
if the above are issues that make you prohibit more than one alt of the same player in the same guild due to share of information (metagaming), then why are we allowing players to have alts in different guilds and factions, often times opposing ones where the damage of metagaming is much much higher?

[Lambert]

I really appreciate the feedback from everyone, and these are great points.

From my experience metagaming happens in all kinds of contexts and is unfortunate, but again happens, and some of it is impossible to avoid. Humans being humans.

I do agree that I prefer to keep things naive between characters. Since I am not playing a zero-sum game, not trying to win anything or control everything, just get a good experience, I like wise understand people's priority of immersion and wanting good rp. I too enjoy emersion.