Uncanny Dodge as a General Feat

[Steve]

We also modified the engine to allow customizing Base Natural AC.

I don't have a complete list but we gave this to Armor Skin II-X, Battlerager, and Acolyte of Skin.

This is what Polymorph/Shapechage/Word of Changing and Wild Shapes mechanics for "Natural" AC need to be shifted to. Please!

[Ewe]

We also modified the engine to allow customizing Base Natural AC.

I don't have a complete list but we gave this to Armor Skin II-X, Battlerager, and Acolyte of Skin.

Thank you for your help! This is very nice clarification.

If I understand correctly this increase to base natural AC also 'stacks with everything', right?

Does its exclusion from the list mean that Armor Skin 1 does not stack e.g. with a Barkskin potion

When I say "Base Natural AC" that means it's the stacking base amount.

Without saying "Base" and just "Natural AC" that's an effect. Effects come from spells or item properties, primarily.

Natural AC from effects (like item properties or spells) all do apply to your character, you will have an effect for each applied to your character, but only the highest such effect is actually used when you're attacked or viewing your character sheet.

[zhazz]

I'll add that Duelist and Invisible Blade are practically forced into taking Uncanny Dodge regardless of the initiative bug since both Uncanny Defense and Unfettered Defense are also removed by being Flat-Footed.

It's possible to make both work without Uncanny Dodge, but it requires a lot of investment elsewhere to do so. Typically by stacking AC even higher than normal, and then getting Epic Dodge on top, simply to offset the loss of AC when Flat-Footed.

[Ewe]

I've been playing a lot on the server as a dex build w/o uncanny lately. I have yet to see any time initiative is rolled more than once. Is there some specific setup required?

[zhazz]

Straight up just wailing on each other? Haven't seen it myself.

Use Knockdown on someone to take them out for a round, and take a step back, it can reset because combat ends after a round of no activity.

[RedLancer]

Death, taxes, and people overstating the necessity of Uncanny Dodge.

[Steve]

Death, taxes, and people overstating the necessity of Uncanny Dodge.

Even Paladins are capable of choosing a spell that grants the feat!!!

[Ewe]

I checked with staff and apparently Defensive Fighting and Combat Expertise are not using Dodge AC as a placeholder like I previously indicated. It's actually the correct type per SRD.

Unsure about the Druid stuff, still looking into that.

So far I haven't found any smoking gun in terms of being randomly flat-footed while wailing on a target, I've not observed this to be the case yet. If anyone has more info on that please share. Thank you.

[zhazz]

I checked with staff and apparently Defensive Fighting and Combat Expertise are not using Dodge AC as a placeholder like I previously indicated. It's actually the correct type per SRD.

If that's the case, then the in-game armor breakdown (hover over AC icon in inventory) need to be updated. Both change the Dodge AC number in the breakdown overlay.

Even if they are not considered Dodge AC they could still be negated by being Flat-Footed. Wonky NWN2 code and all that jazz.
It might be quicker to check the code for it than attempt to test it (due to setup and randomness of the d20), but I can help testing it out if needed.

[renshouj]

I checked with staff and apparently Defensive Fighting and Combat Expertise are not using Dodge AC as a placeholder like I previously indicated. It's actually the correct type per SRD.

If that's the case, then the in-game armor breakdown (hover over AC icon in inventory) need to be updated. Both change the Dodge AC number in the breakdown overlay.

Even if they are not considered Dodge AC they could still be negated by being Flat-Footed. Wonky NWN2 code and all that jazz.
It might be quicker to check the code for it than attempt to test it (due to setup and randomness of the d20), but I can help testing it out if needed.

They're not using it as a placeholder, both CE and Fighting Defensively are correctly set to Dodge AC as per 3.5 SRD (and thus subject to flat-footedness). That said, if there are other sources of AC that you feel are incorrectly typed, please do let us know.

[Ghost]

This is correct:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise

When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

[Steve]

So far I haven't found any smoking gun in terms of being randomly flat-footed while wailing on a target, I've not observed this to be the case yet. If anyone has more info on that please share. Thank you.

It’s related to Initiative. There are random moments during combat—at least because we haven’t figured out exactly why…—where a PC is forced an Initiative Check (which should only happen before combat commences). And with these random Initiative Checks, all Dodge based AC is lost unless the PC has the Uncanny Dodge feat…and that can be a quite significant amount! For example, some Wild Shape forms, since their “natural” AC is considered dodge, plus DEX modifier, is 23 points of AC lost in the random Initiative check round of attacks.

Even if it’s a non-Shape using PC, if you calculate DEX + CE + other Dodge based bonuses, that can easily be 12-14 AC lost for a first flurry of attacks…and depending on the mob or boss, will murderate your PC right quick.

So I’d say it’s about observing the situation with Initiative Checks, when and how they are made via the Engine, and why these random checks are occurring (and if they can even be stopped).

[Ewe]

Sorry maybe my post wasn't clear, I meant that I was wrong earlier in the thread that DF and CE were dodge as a placeholder.

They were meant to be dodge all along (per SRD and intent).


Steve, I haven't seen initiative reroll ever during 1 on 1 fight with a monster. If someone can show me how to reproduce it to trigger I can fix it.

[Steve]

Steve, I haven't seen initiative reroll ever during 1 on 1 fight with a monster. If someone can show me how to reproduce it to trigger I can fix it.

What about +1-on-1 encounters? We know it’s not Flanking.

What I think it might be is that in encounters with multiple opponents, the engine somehow has one’s PC momentarily exit them reenter combat, and in that split second moment, Initiative is made and one’s PC is considered flat-footed.

I have zero idea of how to replicate it reliably!!!

[mrm3ntalist]

This is correct:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatExpertise

When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, you can take a penalty of as much as -5 on your attack roll and add the same number (+5 or less) as a dodge bonus to your Armor Class. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The changes to attack rolls and Armor Class last until your next action.

A little different matter, but not totally unrelated. Is dodge bonus AC supposed to be capped at 20 on https://www.d20srd.org/ ?