BGTSCC's Server Difficulty

[Tanlaus]

It's true you can solo just about any class to 30 with quests and it is easier in the UD because there is less distance to travel for your weekly run. But this is not what I did. My whole point was that by playing carefully, i.e. not charging in buffed, hasted and trying to face tank everything, I could do fine even with what is generally considered one of the perennially weaker builds by playing smarter. Which brings me to this....

And once again, you fight a thousand Wyverns, you fight a thousand Basilisks, and you will die unless you have the appropriate immunity, and the moment you have the immunity, the only way to implement challenge is by increasing hitpoints and the base saves. Thus, there is a mechanical incentive to make characters that have as many immunities as possible, in addition to either being able to overcome high saves or hit pools, and these build abilities do not vanish when these players participate in Dungeon Master events. Thus in order for a Dungeon Master to provide challenge, the big bad bosses get either inflated to high heaves with immunity to everything, or they just evaporate in a round or two. Thus when it comes to role-play gimmick builds, they struggle with most of the current server content, and should combat arise in a Dungeon Master event, well, they are not going to do great there either. And personally, back when the Dreadmaster of Bane was added, I thought long and hard about creating such a character, and I gave up on the almost right away. I was not looking forward to discover the exact percentage of enemies that are immune to mind affecting, simply to nerf Hold and Dominate Monster spells, and I was not looking forward to encountering other players as every Harry, Tom, and Nick has their Fear immunity from one source or another, which would leave no other avenue outside of specifically requested DM events for a Dreadmaster to actually spread dread. I suppose the Helmed Horror Cohort will be okay when slaying trolls, when it is fully buffed up as a cleric.

I think the first part of this is where you and I disagree. To me the problem is this: "the moment you have the immunity, the only way to implement challenge is by increasing hitpoints and the base saves."

Increasing saves and HP is one way to make for longer lasting encounters but not necessarily tougher ones. Suppose with said Wyvrens or Basalisks they had a higher AC and AB. So that it isn't so easy for a tank-like character to pretty much ignore regular attacks outside of crits. I watched a druid with protection from petrification run circles outside of Durlag's, get all the basalisks in the area chasing him, then just beat them down as they surrounded him missing on everything but crits. And this was a CR appropriate areas for him, 50xp a pop per kill. If those attacks landed more regularly they would be dangerous outside of just petrification. Same for Wyvrens.

I think that increasing HP and saves on some creatures is a way to increase their challenge, but doing it for pretty much everything without adjusting other aspects of their sheet does not do much to increase the challenge.

It also favors certain builds like tanks with steadfast, while invalidating enchantments and most evocations. A tightly gathered group of basalisks should be mostly decimated by a fireball from a wizard of the appropriate level, but the way the game is designed that fireball will hardly damage them because of HP and saves.

Changing the meta would make it more difficult for certain builds to solo, but it would also allow for a wider variety of builds to meaningfully contribute during a fight. To me increasing the playability of a wider variety of builds contributes to the diversity of RP on the server in a way that I think 'easy mode' does not. Suppose you get to 30 on 'easy mode,' what then? If you run around with a regular group doing regular content there's still only a few builds that contribute anything. You're still hanging out in the back line of DM events because you can only handle easy content.

We just had a summer of ultimate easy mode with the 100% RCR period. I do not have access to character build stats but I'd wager overwhelmingly builds got stronger vs the current content, not weaker. Not to mention even without RCR you could still get to 30 just hanging around the campfire if you are not built for combat.

[Hoihe]

It's true you can solo just about any class to 30 with quests and it is easier in the UD because there is less distance to travel for your weekly run. But this is not what I did. My whole point was that by playing carefully, i.e. not charging in buffed, hasted and trying to face tank everything, I could do fine even with what is generally considered one of the perennially weaker builds by playing smarter. Which brings me to this....

And once again, you fight a thousand Wyverns, you fight a thousand Basilisks, and you will die unless you have the appropriate immunity, and the moment you have the immunity, the only way to implement challenge is by increasing hitpoints and the base saves. Thus, there is a mechanical incentive to make characters that have as many immunities as possible, in addition to either being able to overcome high saves or hit pools, and these build abilities do not vanish when these players participate in Dungeon Master events. Thus in order for a Dungeon Master to provide challenge, the big bad bosses get either inflated to high heaves with immunity to everything, or they just evaporate in a round or two. Thus when it comes to role-play gimmick builds, they struggle with most of the current server content, and should combat arise in a Dungeon Master event, well, they are not going to do great there either. And personally, back when the Dreadmaster of Bane was added, I thought long and hard about creating such a character, and I gave up on the almost right away. I was not looking forward to discover the exact percentage of enemies that are immune to mind affecting, simply to nerf Hold and Dominate Monster spells, and I was not looking forward to encountering other players as every Harry, Tom, and Nick has their Fear immunity from one source or another, which would leave no other avenue outside of specifically requested DM events for a Dreadmaster to actually spread dread. I suppose the Helmed Horror Cohort will be okay when slaying trolls, when it is fully buffed up as a cleric.

I think the first part of this is where you and I disagree. To me the problem is this: "the moment you have the immunity, the only way to implement challenge is by increasing hitpoints and the base saves."

Increasing saves and HP is one way to make for longer lasting encounters but not necessarily tougher ones. Suppose with said Wyvrens or Basalisks they had a higher AC and AB. So that it isn't so easy for a tank-like character to pretty much ignore regular attacks outside of crits. I watched a druid with protection from petrification run circles outside of Durlag's, get all the basalisks in the area chasing him, then just beat them down as they surrounded him missing on everything but crits. And this was a CR appropriate areas for him, 50xp a pop per kill. If those attacks landed more regularly they would be dangerous outside of just petrification. Same for Wyvrens.

I think that increasing HP and saves on some creatures is a way to increase their challenge, but doing it for pretty much everything without adjusting other aspects of their sheet does not do much to increase the challenge.

It also favors certain builds like tanks with steadfast, while invalidating enchantments and most evocations. A tightly gathered group of basalisks should be mostly decimated by a fireball from a wizard of the appropriate level, but the way the game is designed that fireball will hardly damage them because of HP and saves.

Changing the meta would make it more difficult for certain builds to solo, but it would also allow for a wider variety of builds to meaningfully contribute during a fight. To me increasing the playability of a wider variety of builds contributes to the diversity of RP on the server in a way that I think 'easy mode' does not. Suppose you get to 30 on 'easy mode,' what then? If you run around with a regular group doing regular content there's still only a few builds that contribute anything. You're still hanging out in the back line of DM events because you can only handle easy content.

We just had a summer of ultimate easy mode with the 100% RCR period. I do not have access to character build stats but I'd wager overwhelmingly builds got stronger vs the current content, not weaker. Not to mention even without RCR you could still get to 30 just hanging around the campfire if you are not built for combat.

I do not see why we need to make things harder to allow other builds to flourish, rather than make things easier and make it no longer mandatory to get 55+ AC to be able to survive.

We can adjust difficulty the other way: down. And get the same far better results.

[Deathgrowl]

make it no longer mandatory to get 55+ AC to be able to survive.

10 years on the server and the only PC I have had that even got close to this kind of AC was my druid, which admittedly surpassed it at around 60 and was practically unkillable. The rest, mostly never even reached 45.

How are my characters surviving?

[Hoihe]

make it no longer mandatory to get 55+ AC to be able to survive.

10 years on the server and the only PC I have had that even got close to this kind of AC was my druid, which admittedly surpassed it at around 60 and was practically unkillable. The rest, mostly never even reached 45.

How are my characters surviving?

Have you since been to Grey Peaks, Frost Giants, Ziggurat and equivalent?

Without Displacement, without Mirror Image?

All the above areas have AB ranging from 30 to as high as 38 on generic trashmobs. And even with AB + 20, you can lose 30-60 HP per mob due to nat 20s. I dread to imagine how much HP you lose if you get hit more frequently than one in twenty.

[Deathgrowl]

Have you since been to Grey Peaks, Frost Giants, Ziggurat and equivalent?

Frost giants, yes. Solo even. Both on my cleric and my fighter, who has a maxium of 47 AC unbuffed with ICE on, but he really is a power attacker, so I go with that instead and end up at 40 AC (thief acrobat ICE gives +7).

Grey peaks I don't bother soloing, but I have also been there. And Durlag's Tower, which has various levels of danger.

Without Displacement, without Mirror Image?

Why are these disqualifying? But yes, without both.

All the above areas have AB ranging from 30 to as high as 38 on generic trashmobs. And even with AB + 20, you can lose 30-60 HP per mob due to nat 20s. I dread to imagine how much HP you lose if you get hit more frequently than one in twenty.

What? You don't expect to get hit like ever? My 40 AC fighter gets hit all the time, but he also kills his enemies and thus survives. And has to heal up a bit sometimes.

Why do you expect to be able to solo these high epic places anyways? These places aren't designed to be soloed. Some powerbuilds will be able to, obviously. But just because you or I can't with our characters, doesn't mean they're too difficult. It means they are as difficult as they are designed to be. They are meant to be group content.

[Hoihe]

Have you since been to Grey Peaks, Frost Giants, Ziggurat and equivalent?

Frost giants, yes. Solo even. Both on my cleric and my fighter, who has a maxium of 47 AC unbuffed with ICE on, but he really is a power attacker, so I go with that instead and end up at 40 AC (thief acrobat ICE gives +7).

Grey peaks I don't bother soloing, but I have also been there. And Durlag's Tower, which has various levels of danger.

Without Displacement, without Mirror Image?

Why are these disqualifying? But yes, without both.

All the above areas have AB ranging from 30 to as high as 38 on generic trashmobs. And even with AB + 20, you can lose 30-60 HP per mob due to nat 20s. I dread to imagine how much HP you lose if you get hit more frequently than one in twenty.

What? You don't expect to get hit like ever? My 40 AC fighter gets hit all the time, but he also kills his enemies and thus survives. And has to heal up a bit sometimes.

Why do you expect to be able to solo these high epic places anyways? These places aren't designed to be soloed. Some powerbuilds will be able to, obviously. But just because you or I can't with our characters, doesn't mean they're too difficult. It means they are as difficult as they are designed to be. They are meant to be group content.

I expect to solo them because I am forced to due to the "loot rebalance" that means you can only loot areas at 18+ CR, and that's an awfully limited quantity coming out at:

"Easy ones"
Durlag's Tower
Lizardmen cave
Nashkel Iron Mines
Reaching Wood

Durlag's is a very long dungeon to run, lizardmen are very out of the way and repeating them over and over again as our loot system requires drains one's will to live. Nashkel Iron mines is so-so, but same issue as with Lizardmen and Reaching Wood.


And many of those we were not even allowed to loot at 30, and could only get them after prolonged begging.

"intended" ones:
Yuan-ti Hills. Has dispel galore and enemies with save or die spells.
Ziggurat. Needs ~55 AC to reliably do.
Vault of the Dead. Infamous without explanation
Forest of Wryms. Havn't checked since hard to approach ICly.
Frost Giants. The go-to area supposedly for level 30s for "intended difficulty."
Fire Giants. Way worse than frost due to mage galore AND spawns spawning in groups with ability to hit even 58 AC AND DR on top.

If we avoid Yuan-ti due to save or die spells, we're left with Ziggurat, VoTD, Frost and Fire.

Running Ziggurat multiple times in a row reduces one's will to live. Variety drives.

[Tanlaus]

I do not see why we need to make things harder to allow other builds to flourish, rather than make things easier and make it no longer mandatory to get 55+ AC to be able to survive.

We can adjust difficulty the other way: down. And get the same far better results.

1) As I was pointing out by soloing a pure rogue, 55+ AC is not mandatory. It's just mandatory if you're idea of fighting is to charge in and facetank everything. IIRC you said in other posts you have HIPS. Why do you even fight that much? Even near chests, shoot an arrow, have the enemies chase you away, hide, go back and loot the empty room. Save everything for FGK if Frost Keep is where you like to run around. There are plenty of ways to solo and loot that don't require beating everything down.

2) When you say "I do not see why we need to make things harder to allow other builds to flourish," you're basically saying "I do not see why we need to make things harder FOR ME to allow other builds to flourish." You're playing the meta, super high AC, buffs, change in and beat them down. That particular design limits what other types of builds- even very vanilla ones like an evoker- from being able to contribute.

You mention not wanting to be bored running the lizard cave over and over but what kind of engagement is there in fighting the exact same fight over and over because you have built around high AC, high save opponents?

People get bored of the end game, particularly with groups, because ultimately every fight is pretty much the same. And again, changing it up does not mean it's always harder. That high AB opponent might have lower saves and less AC. Maybe charging in to fight a group of them is not a great idea, but mass hold monster is suddenly extremely useful again. And without spells you can still beat them down fast but you may have to draw them out with ranged weapons instead of charging in. The change would be so that a handful of builds does not shine above everything else.

What does adjusting everything down do? Make it easy for everyone to solo everything? Again, I do not speak for the staff here just myself as a player, but I'm pretty sure that's not the intention of our PVE content.

[Steve]

Variety drives.

Hoihe,
It sounds like, to solve your issues, you need to do what everyone else has been “forced” to do, and that is build/level up a dedicated lootz grinder PC, and the mule over your gains.

All the kool kids are doing it!!!

[YYA]

I think the first part of this is where you and I disagree. To me the problem is this: "the moment you have the immunity, the only way to implement challenge is by increasing hitpoints and the base saves."

There was a time on this server when the Spirit Shaman base class would have been seen quite literally as inferior to the Commoner base class, had the latter been available way back when. Favoured Soul gets more spells based on Charisma, so it coupled well with the Turn Undead base abilities. A Spirit Shaman gets additional spells based on Wisdom, lacks AB increasing spells that the Cleric has access to, doesn't really have good proficiencies either, and thus the multiple attribute dependancy hits the Spirit Shaman class far worse than most other classes. Around that time there were many attempts to balance the server mobs, and particular area with a multitude of Ice based enemies was quite lethal even to full parties. My Spirit Shaman soloed that are, and then the Vault of the Dead that at the was regarded as the deadliest place on the server. The enemies could not really do much to a player character who would not fail saves even when rolling one, who was immune to Knockdown, Ranged Attacks, all forms of Elemental Damage, Death Effects and Ability Drain, in addition to any effect that would impede character movement, who could replenish that 30/Adamantine damage reduction on a moments notice, and could maintain stacked up Hit Point regeneration without a worry in the world. Oh, this character also had its movement speed increased, which mean that he could just run around the Ice Giants, cast Inferno on them, and just wait them to die, with or without standing under a Storm of Vengeance.

Thus, because people complained that the server content was far too easy, Frenzied Weapon Masters cleaving through everyhing, sneaks popping out of stealth and manifesting corpeses, archers just standing in the middle of the map and just hitting their keyboard keys to target the next enemy and to release a Manyshot attack, the monsters simply had their hitpoints considerably increased. Thus the mobs did not just die infront to the powerbuilt player characters, and then these players noticed how Wizards and such could gather a mob, and wipe it out with one or two AoE save or die spell. Thus the saves on monsters were generally increased, but the supposed death blow to DC casters was actually something entirely self-inflicted. You had dedicated DC casters, and you had Gishes, and some of these dedicated DC complained constantly how it was unfair that the Gishes could still do what they could with DC spells. Thus, in order to stand above theses, there were those dedicated DC caster players who demanded even high saves on mobs so that there was a point to play a dedicated DC caster. But sadly the ability to come up with a high DC caster build is not always coupled with the understanding of percentages and chance. These players quite literally demanded that the Gish builds could only really succeed with DC spells, if the mobs rolled a one, and since the spell DCs of dedicated casters were not that much higher than those of the Gish builds, what used to be a 50%+ chance to kill an enemy with snap of fingers plummeted into the range of 5-25%.

Increasing saves and HP is one way to make for longer lasting encounters but not necessarily tougher ones. Suppose with said Wyvrens or Basalisks they had a higher AC and AB. So that it isn't so easy for a tank-like character to pretty much ignore regular attacks outside of crits. I watched a druid with protection from petrification run circles outside of Durlag's, get all the basalisks in the area chasing him, then just beat them down as they surrounded him missing on everything but crits. And this was a CR appropriate areas for him, 50xp a pop per kill. If those attacks landed more regularly they would be dangerous outside of just petrification. Same for Wyvrens.

And instead of that Druid just slowly pummeling through the Wyverns or Basilisks, you would see a Frenzied Weapon Master do the same, by using HiPS, then Whirlwind Attack, then HiPS again, and Whirlwind Attack... And the build in question would probably be some kind of Fighter/Champion of Corellon Larethian/Weapon Master/Shadowdancer, who could actually afford to get the Improved Whirlwind Attack epic feat for increased range without decreasing their AB or Damage per hit... So what happens next? You beef up the Spot skills of these mobs? Well, all of a sudden those single class Rogues can no longer use their stealth. Rogues have medium BAB progression, Feint is not an option either because it gets countered by Spot, and most rogue builds are not exactly known for reaching that 55+ AC, nor large hit point pools to survive all those attacks that Wyverns and Basilisks would land.

Thus once again, increased HP is over all the lesser evil here.

Changing the meta would make it more difficult for certain builds to solo, but it would also allow for a wider variety of builds to meaningfully contribute during a fight. To me increasing the playability of a wider variety of builds contributes to the diversity of RP on the server in a way that I think 'easy mode' does not. Suppose you get to 30 on 'easy mode,' what then? If you run around with a regular group doing regular content there's still only a few builds that contribute anything. You're still hanging out in the back line of DM events because you can only handle easy content.

Well, the big difference with the 'Easy Mode' areas would be content just about any character could overcome, thus even if the the DM events still retain their difficulty, the difficulty is of the DM events is no longer just more of the same, but rather an exception. Additionally, if these 'Easy Moder' areas come with very regular looking mobs, anything a DM spawns will feel rather fresh and unique. After all, a Balor or a Dragon will be far more imposing if a character has not slain one right before the event, and yet another right after it.

And you can speak of a wider variety of builds that would be more useful if the server's mobs were balanced differently, but you have already admitted that doing so would also make it more difficult other builds to solo it. Thus the change you have suggested will simply change the meta of the server, from one group of necesary powerbuilds into another.

Where as the addition of 'Easy Mode Areas' leaves the rest of the servers as is. A character someone has seen a great investment in is not suddenly rendered irrelevant, as has happaned multiple times during the server's history when things have been 'balanced' against one powerbuild or another. You know, I do not remember the name of the player, the name of the character, guild associations or anything like it, but there was this one character that had full investment in both Duelist and Assassin, and as high Intelligence ability score as possible. You know, it wasn't the greatest build to begin with, but if the target failed a fortitude save against a death attack, this character could then kill it in relatively shift fashion. But as the non-dexterity based AC was increased, as the saves were increased, there was eventually nothing that this character could do -- even with UMD that was available at the time -- and the player just announced the retirement of this character if my memory serves. But should someone else want to make such a gimmicky 'role-play' build, or any other of its kind, the 'Easy Mode Areas' would make it once again possible on this server. A wizard could fling that fire ball, and you would not have to adjust every single mob of the server, you just have to search for images of river scenery, make a rough area based around it, and add spaws with inferior stats compared to their counterparts in other areas. You do not have to fish, you do not have to park your charatcer at a campfire, you do not have to do the weekly quests, you could have small adventures in those easy mode areas, and once you find a party, explore the other areas of the server. And trusth me, nothing stops a mad Zerg rushj faster than a guy that just keeps the Search or Track Mode on, while spewing out lines of text.

We just had a summer of ultimate easy mode with the 100% RCR period. I do not have access to character build stats but I'd wager overwhelmingly builds got stronger vs the current content, not weaker. Not to mention even without RCR you could still get to 30 just hanging around the campfire if you are not built for combat.

I imagine many of them have Shifters, and just as it was with the Elemental Archers ages ago, people will grow bored and just try something new. Something different, because when every Jack, Tom, and Jill are shifters, suddenly your Shifter is no longer all that special.

And once again, hanging around at the campfire is just not everyone's cup of tea.

[Tanlaus]

I imagine many of them have Shifters, and just as it was with the Elemental Archers ages ago, people will grow bored and just try something new. Something different, because when every Jack, Tom, and Jill are shifters, suddenly your Shifter is no longer all that special.

And once again, hanging around at the campfire is just not everyone's cup of tea.

Honestly, from what I can tell, without see the stats, I don't think Shifter is a hugely popular class. I haven't seen too many running around is all. Don't get me wrong, I think it's a really cool class with unique abilities but not everyone's cup of tea.

As to the other points...

Yes, raising HP and saves is the 'lesser evil,' and not a bad way to go. I think the problem is that it has been pretty much the only way to go. It creates a sameness to all the content and allows a very narrow range of builds to succeed to the detriment of others.

Should all creatures have their saves lowered? No, but some should. Some can be super tough, others can be less tough but hit more and do more damage. Dedicated casters would still be needed to shut down some of the high HP, high save ones, but gishes could successfully land control spells on others.

Should all creatures have their spot skill raised? No, but some should. Not to mention, pure rogues and other dedicated sneaks generally get their stealth skills much higher than people with HIPS dips. Could have a larger range of spotter creatures, like the archers in the Wood of Sharp Teeth or Reaching woods, for example that could have ten to twenty points higher spot. Dedicated sneakers could skill pass them by, but dips would need to fight, or run. And even still, there should be some spotters that even dedicated sneaks need to approach with caution.

My whole point is trying to achieve some kind of balance only one way (high HP high saves) does the opposite and pushes people towards certain types of builds.

And you can speak of a wider variety of builds that would be more useful if the server's mobs were balanced differently, but you have already admitted that doing so would also make it more difficult other builds to solo it. Thus the change you have suggested will simply change the meta of the server, from one group of necesary powerbuilds into another.

Would diversifying the way PVE content is balanced make it more difficult in general to solo? Yes. Impossible? No. What it would really do, again, is eliminate the ability to just buff up and charge. Soloers would have to approach encounters more cautiously, change strategies depending on what they are up against.

But that is really secondary. What diversity of creatures would do is allow more diversity in PCs. In the bigger picture diversity allows various builds to shine within groups because not all monsters will share the same strengths and weaknesses. And ultimately this is important because it allows for a greater diversity in RP. RP builds are not shut out of end game content... within reason. A 30 commoner is never going to be very helpful. A low int dedicated wizard isn't either. But more average, even classical builds (like evokers for instance) would have more moments to shine.

But really I'm just repeating myself, so this will be my last post on this particular aspect of server content.

As far as easy mode, I'm just not seeing the use with or without a rebalance. What's the point of having a way to solo to 30 on your non optimized character if once you get there you're still pretty much a fifth wheel when it comes to grouping? Why focus on the mechanical goal of 30 when the character won't be very mechanically powerful at 30 anyway?

[Steve]

As far as easy mode, I'm just not seeing the use with or without a rebalance. What's the point of having a way to solo to 30 on your non optimized character if once you get there you're still pretty much a fifth wheel when it comes to grouping? Why focus on the mechanical goal of 30 when the character won't be very mechanically powerful at 30 anyway?

Easy Mode is just going to an Area that has is 5-6 CR levels below Character Level. Yes, the XP will be pitiful, but hey, it's easy mode. No real Risk v. Reward to speak of.

[Hoihe]

As far as easy mode, I'm just not seeing the use with or without a rebalance. What's the point of having a way to solo to 30 on your non optimized character if once you get there you're still pretty much a fifth wheel when it comes to grouping? Why focus on the mechanical goal of 30 when the character won't be very mechanically powerful at 30 anyway?

Easy Mode is just going to an Area that has is 5-6 CR levels below Character Level. Yes, the XP will be pitiful, but hey, it's easy mode. No real Risk v. Reward to speak of.

Here's the kicker, "Easy Mode" at level 30 then means: Vault of the Dead, Level 1, Vault Level 2, Forest of Wyrms, Stone Giants.

If we expand to seven, we get Yuan-ti, Spirit Troll, Old Mine (which is able to wipe a party of 30s...), Reaching Woods.

And apparently level 4 Durlag should be super easy... yet it's also managed to kill level 30s (1 tank, 1 arcane archer) when they got overwhelmed by invisible stalkers.



And XP is not the issue, you can get it through RP or circle grinding reaching woods.

The issue is with loot, which is needed for just about everyone - be it for paying your guild members if running some company or league, for paying other RP expenses, for consumables that are needed to run areas, and for gear to not die near instantaneously to enemies with dumb amounts of AB and time to kill.

-snip-

First off:

The purpose of PVE is to give players something to do while waiting for other players, that they can reliably interact with.

If there is nothing for one to do solo... Then there's no reason to stay online when there's 6-15 incompatible people on. Which has the knock on effect of causing even more people to stay off and wait, as they themselves have nothing to do. So, even if there COULD have been an interaction, it is missed because both of them logging in for 10 minutes, staring at scry then logging off.

If there is a sufficient quantity of rewarding PvE content a player can do solo, then that player will stay online and then either A) someone who would engage with them logs in, and seeing someone they are compatible with, stays on and goes to engage them for some meaningful interaction or B) The player who is off doing PvE content checks scry after returning to sell, and sees that now there is a compatible person line and goes to engage them in meaningful interaction.

As is present, neither A or B can happen because you log in, go die to Mohrg bard offensive insanity, to fire elementals at greypeaks, to frost giant spawn rate as they spawn on top of you, or be suicidal and die to the cr 22 area with illithids that TPK the entire party at 30. Maybe you go to the areas that do give you some reward... But you did them yesterday. And the day before that. And you can't make yourself go to the ziggurat for the THIRD time so you just log off.





Secondly,

I've no clue where you've taken the idea that I "Buff, charge and bash."

I utterly hate buffing.

My original concept post-Miracle was a non-buffing Duskblade imitator - engage trashmobs with longsword (which became rapier due to AB), finish debuff big guys with various curses and illusions and transmutations. This original concept died in the making after I realized I need 55+ AC, and my current 45 AC is nowhere enough to even deal with trash mobs. So, I went the buff-route which worked for a while using HiPS dodge for dispels, then got wiped out by realizing enemies can cast dispel again right after you dodged one, nullifying you and returning you to a quick death.

So, this turned into a build that lost its entire Duskblade fantasy and got reduced to 5 + 4 practiced Cl, and uses wands and scrolls to do the same hexing and debuffing. But still avoids buffs and bash beyond a Heroism, a Keen edge on rapier. And maybe IMA for greypeaks/frost giants.

I also do not charge in, UNLESS I'm with a party and I gotta ensure enemy aggros me with their spells and not my party member who doesn't have HiPS. This Charge & Hips works very well in a party vs caster mobs, provided we spotted the mob first.

When I'm solo, what I do is grab my bow - lure an enemy away with HiPS to disengage the rest, then fight them 1 on 1. After all, my PRC is a duelist, and I gain an entire 3 AC for fighting enemies 1v1! Or, in the ziggurat, use the corners to taunt enemies away from their groups, or the tight hallways/strairs to ensure I'm blocking the rest and only fighting 1 enemy.

But, due to some rather absurd design decisions... There are places (Mostly amongst frost giants) where despite being backed into a corner, fighting an isolated enemy... Suddenly 2-3 giants (sometimes including a mage or wyrm) spawn right on top of you. Thought yourself tricksy and smart and playing to your class's strengths? Nope! Enjoy enemies right on top of you! And I'm not buying "you failed hidden checks", as this happened when I was visiting the area with a druid. And that druid has insane spot and survival checks, AND had true sight on.

Oh, but you can sneak to the chest, you say! Have you tried sneaking with 33 ranks in H/MS and a dex score of seven while wearing robes of Blending and Ninja boots and under Heroism? You get spotted instantenously! Not even a Greater Cloaked amulet does anything. I can't even split the triple-spawn of fire elementals right on the entrance of the Greypeaks (a mandatory fight mind, you can't go around them), as they immediately spot me from afar. I'm genuinely of the opinion I should RCR and just go bare minimum H/MS for Shadowdancer as having a H/MS score of 45 does nothing at level 30 in areas below your level!


Enemies need lower AB, lower time to kill, lower saves (my original concept, even if I had taken ESF in the various schools for debuff spells, would have had no chance at most creatures. The only way the hexer concept works is using saveless spells right now... And even those might fail due to numerous unexpected immunities (Did you know fire giants are immune to fear?). And - fewer attacks.

Those 3 fire elementals at the entrance of Greypeaks? Even with absurd AC and whatnot... take me down to 150 or even 120 HP by the time I'm done with them. Why? They attack. A lot. This is probably not helped by their 10 untyped DR and 300 HP each.

And high saves. I've only got high reflex. Getting hit with any fort or will save is practically a death sentence! Which means, I can't even use HiPS to dance around enemies to reduce their APR as I gotta save my HIPS on the off-chance a spellcaster randomly spawns within aggro range to kill me.


Edit:

The gist of balance issues, and overall direction to me boils down to:

We have a problem (High levels grinding low level areas for loot rather than going to level appropriate places). We "solve" the problem without fixing the cause by making people only able to loot within 8 levels of their HD, and later 12 levels of their HD.

What would have been an actual solution? Let what already exists, but make it so once a week/month/, per CD key, going to a high level area is guaranteed to drop you an item that's appropriate for the area's CR 4 times.

Boom, people are no longer forced to loot for quantity. But nope, must make server impossible to play for builds that don't have 300 damage per round, 24/7 mirror image, 24/7 displacement, insane AC, and whatnot.

[YYA]

As far as easy mode, I'm just not seeing the use with or without a rebalance. What's the point of having a way to solo to 30 on your non optimized character if once you get there you're still pretty much a fifth wheel when it comes to grouping? Why focus on the mechanical goal of 30 when the character won't be very mechanically powerful at 30 anyway?

Easy Mode is just going to an Area that has is 5-6 CR levels below Character Level. Yes, the XP will be pitiful, but hey, it's easy mode. No real Risk v. Reward to speak of.

And sadly the claim of no real risk just doesn't hold true for all characters. Without immunity to petrification, the Basilisks do not care of your AC or hit points, they will just petrify your character because the die will deliver that number one sooner or later... Different characters have different weaknesses, and different areas of the server will throw different curve balls at them.

As for reaching level 30, it is the highest level one can reach in the game, and even if the build itself is not particularly powerful, all builds acquire some additional things as they level up. And reaching level 30 is a server milestone, and it is something that frees the player from the experience penalty upon death. And if someone has a character with a truly terrible build, and they still manage to reach level 30, it might actually feel like a personal achievement to some. And generally speaking, human beings have tendency to be purpose driven. And finally, not everyone wishes to create a character that is the very best that could be, it is more about role-playing a very specific type of character. Which reminds me of one discussion I had years ago, when I talked about Rogue/Cleric/Darkfire Disciples/Hierophants, and explained how that build of mine could gain 11-14 points of AC just by discarding and replacing role-play feats and skills into ones that offer far greater mechanical power.

Oh, and as for Shifters, I will have to say that I have not logged in without encounter at least one or two every other day.

[Tanlaus]

Oh, but you can sneak to the chest, you say! Have you tried sneaking with 33 ranks in H/MS and a dex score of seven while wearing robes of Blending and Ninja boots and under Heroism? You get spotted instantenously! Not even a Greater Cloaked amulet does anything. I can't even split the triple-spawn of fire elementals right on the entrance of the Greypeaks (a mandatory fight mind, you can't go around them), as they immediately spot me from afar. I'm genuinely of the opinion I should RCR and just go bare minimum H/MS for Shadowdancer as having a H/MS score of 45 does nothing at level 30 in areas below your level!

If you're running around in epic areas with sub 50 for hide then yes, you will get spotted a lot. Same as, if you're running around epic areas with a low AC you will get hit a lot. If you're casting spells against epic opponents with a low DC they will make most of their saves. That's just how game progression works. But in this case it's easy to mitigate.

Get a wand of mass camouflage and spider skin. That's 14 points to hide right there. And if that's still too low a Greater Cloak of the Stalker or Tomb Raider, or Greater Pwifiwi will add another 4 points. That should allow you to duck out against everything but bosses.

The gist of balance issues, and overall direction to me boils down to:

We have a problem (High levels grinding low level areas for loot rather than going to level appropriate places). We "solve" the problem without fixing the cause by making people only able to loot within 8 levels of their HD, and later 12 levels of their HD.

What would have been an actual solution? Let what already exists, but make it so once a week/month/, per CD key, going to a high level area is guaranteed to drop you an item that's appropriate for the area's CR 4 times.

Boom, people are no longer forced to loot for quantity. But nope, must make server impossible to play for builds that don't have 300 damage per round, 24/7 mirror image, 24/7 displacement, insane AC, and whatnot.

I disagree with your assessment. I think it will wreck the economy even more. Since resources are essentially infinite, the main issue with the economy is that there is already more gold and items pouring into it than there is a way to remove them. It's not even run away inflation at this point. It's beyond that.

This is true of items as well.

If you look at the Auction House +4 items sell for way less than +3 items used to sell when I first started playing here in 2019. (Technically not the first time I played here but there was something like an eight year break so... sort of the same thing). Loot is much easier to come by these days. Plus the chance to loot good stuff from chests has been increased as part of the loot change. Guaranteed high level drops, even once a month, is just going to flood the market even more. Every player logging in and getting their monthly epic drops is just... a lot of epic stuff suddenly being available.

Two years ago if you found a +4 longsword you could sell it for a fair amount of money. Now you might get 3 or 4k for it. That happens to everything if the market floods. 20 ninja robes or 20 viperblades or whatever else on the auction at any given time drives their prices down to close to zero as well. On top of the fact that people will have even more gold to spend.

I get why you are proposing what you are proposing, but the long term ramifications would be pretty devastating to the economy.

[MrSmith]

As far as easy mode, I'm just not seeing the use with or without a rebalance. What's the point of having a way to solo to 30 on your non optimized character if once you get there you're still pretty much a fifth wheel when it comes to grouping? Why focus on the mechanical goal of 30 when the character won't be very mechanically powerful at 30 anyway?

Easy Mode is just going to an Area that has is 5-6 CR levels below Character Level. Yes, the XP will be pitiful, but hey, it's easy mode. No real Risk v. Reward to speak of.

*coughs* Gullykin, Crypt = 15 CR. I ventured into this beautifully designed dungeon with a 29th level character. I hadn't been in this crypt for many months and so I decided to rediscover this location over the long holiday weekend. I made it into the Boss's chamber was sent to the Fugue because I missed my fortitude save against a death spell with a DC in the low 30s. Easy mode is relative.