Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Rhifox wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 12:12 pm

Moridin wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 12:03 pm I don't think anyone team evil tried to get involved in the Rockrun plot as in helping the evil factions until two or three weeks before its conclusion, after others had put months in. The only other attempt to do so was by a new Duergar faction at the start that had almost no player interest.

I personally avoided it as I didn't want to overstep on a UD plot. But it seems a lot of UD people weren't interested in doing anything with it (and the one group that was, seemed to want to avoid being seen as having a hand in it so liked that the dwarves were the ones doing the main fighting).

Plus, I figured Zhents would just make trade deals with whoever won. Though eventually learned IC that the Blue Lanterns are anti-Zhent. Oh well.

It wasn't so much that we didn't want to be seen having a hand in it, as it was that we vanished for a few months ourselves. We liked the dwarves joining in for another reason, namely that their presence massively increased the amount of troops at Morex's disposal. (We don't, after all, have the considerable resources available to the various great houses of Sshamath, so we thought it was our only chance of giving him a shot at winning. )

Blaze wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 1:15 pm The titanfists were killed completely by KH dwarves in no time, immediately taking away the opportunity to ally with them.

The mindflyers sent thralls into the Troll Claws, which means they could have done the same in the tradeway and that would have resulted in a disrupt of trade.A PC with 6 int and 2 wis would have definitely allied with them.

The Blue Lanterns were the only option and alternative, although my initial plan with Galliard was to ally with them, wait for them to fight the mind flyers and wait for whoever emerged victorious, immediately after crushing the weakened forces of the Blue Lanterns or Mindflyers and take complete control of Rockrun, this idea was proposed to the Zau'afin but then that letter from Morex came out and it all went up in smoke (at least for the Blackrose)

1. It took two months with them only having enemies and no allies, as well as being surrounded on all sides. The plot wasn't supposed to last long anyway, that the Duergar survived as long as they did is due to player inaction. The Eilistraeeans had already dealt a significant blow to the Titanfists before we became inactive.

2. The illithid doing that could be seen as a benefit to the Drow since the illithid would have provided a cheaper source for illicit or legal slaves(by Sshamath's laws) without the Drow having to maintain the city's defense. They also would likely have proven a potential ally to House Blackrose/The Zhentarim in the Zhentarim/LA war. Edit: Apparently the claim wasn't true. >_>

3. The Zau'afins were not interested in Rockrun and now have even loftier goals than Rockrun.

DaloLorn wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 1:45 pm It wasn't so much that we didn't want to be seen having a hand in it, as it was that we vanished for a few months ourselves. We liked the dwarves joining in for another reason, namely that their presence massively increased the amount of troops at Morex's disposal. (We don't, after all, have the considerable resources available to the various great houses of Sshamath, so we thought it was our only chance of giving him a shot at winning. )

This, entirely this. We definitely were fine with being seen as involved, just Kraak Helzak provided much needed soldiers that we do not possess.

Blaze wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 1:15 pmThe titanfists were killed completely by KH dwarves in no time, immediately taking away the opportunity to ally with them.

The plot started on the 14th of November. The Titanfist fell on the 15th of January, a full two months after it started.

Blaze wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 1:15 pmThe mindflyers sent thralls into the Troll Claws, which means they could have done the same in the tradeway and that would have resulted in a disrupt of trade.A PC with 6 int and 2 wis would have definitely allied with them.

This is untrue and I have literally no idea where this rumour came from. The mindflayers sent no thralls anywhere except Rockrun.

Rhifox wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 12:12 pm

Moridin wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 12:03 pm I don't think anyone team evil tried to get involved in the Rockrun plot as in helping the evil factions until two or three weeks before its conclusion, after others had put months in. The only other attempt to do so was by a new Duergar faction at the start that had almost no player interest.

I personally avoided it as I didn't want to overstep on a UD plot. But it seems a lot of UD people weren't interested in doing anything with it (and the one group that was, seemed to want to avoid being seen as having a hand in it so liked that the dwarves were the ones doing the main fighting).

Plus, I figured Zhents would just make trade deals with whoever won. Though eventually learned IC that the Blue Lanterns are anti-Zhent. Oh well.

Vanguard dialed back so that UD/Team Evil didn't have us zerging this.

It is not just the lack of attention "10 years ago" by other players and dm's, that has crippled team evil. There are a number of reasons why its hard to be an antagonist on this server, mostly due (IMO), to the server rules. A couple examples: Assassination rules, rules of capture, pvp out rules, and the over all golden PG13 rule.

We all have to play nice. I personally do not agree with this, but I sense that the majority of the community does.

And even though I disagree with the rules, I can see that it has created some decent effects- such as, sort of forcing us to focus more on RP and character development than game mechanics- IE power building the meta pvp toon.

The DM's have definitely been trying to give more love to Team Evil, and have been trying to do so for a couple years now. I do not think that is the problem. We have discussed the actual problems antagonists are faced with, to the point where I and I assume many others are sick of the debate itself. As I said earlier, the cards are on the table. Others have pointed out, "it is what it is".

BUT the server has evolved a lot over the ten years that I have been playing- and it has been very interesting to be a part of - to observe.

How the DM's introduce plot lines are different these days. I think in the past a DM would approach a player or faction where as today its more like, this big thing is happening, who wants to get involved, make yourself known. This is a great idea except for those factions that are struggling to stay afloat. They want to make themselves known but find it difficult to insert themselves.

During the Rockrun war, I tried to rally Duergar's to the cause (one of my favorite races) but I could not get others interested.
House Zau'afin, had a total membership of 2-3 players. We were too busy recruiting to try and get involved in any plots. The goal was to get at least 4 regular players before we make ourselves known.
In the previous Lolthite house I was in (Maerinval something like that), we put ourselves out there too soon and had every do gooder on the server screaming for our blood.

At the risk of sounding like I am crying, team evil has been decimated over the years (for reasons we have discussed ad nauseam). Its great that the admin are willing to spread the love now, by evening the playing field for everyone by sharing their attention equally. But it is still very challenging to rise to the occasion when this even field is still not even in other ways.

Playing evil or even an antagonist on this server is difficult. We have to accept that.

I think we should be looking at ways to revitalize interest in playing not just team evil but antagonists in general. The war with DH is a perfect start.

In the sense that I am curious about how others feel about their ability to run around and be naughty. Do you find the state of it fulfilling and enjoyable?
And of course what would you like to see improved specifically if you think it could use some?

Im really just wanting to gauge how everyone on this side of the fence feels about their ability to function and in what ways they would see it improved. Whats wrong with things, whats right with things etc etc.

And honestly if folk could have their ideal scenario, what would it be like?

Obviously this is directed at the naughtier folk but if the other side has comments feel free.

I see many good points made on this thread, and I would like to include my feedback as well.

Playing evil is hard, majority of players are good and the server is pitted against you simply with this mindset:

Team Good exists to maintain the status Quo, nearly every fantasy novel that exists, Evil poses a threat, Team good leaves to stop it, Evil is defeated, perhaps not eradicated, people celebrate, and then return to living their lives as they did before the threat, status quo maintained. Please to not hate team good for stopping evil plots, that is just the nature of the world we play in.

We tend to forget that FR is a BIG place, with many areas that evil flourishes and good is on the back end of things. It is not the nature of the world that we play in.
At the same time however - evil tends to undo themselves OOC. They don't jump on opportunities given to them - Rockrun for example. Demoralization plays a big role in this I believe and I do not need to go into depth with details, as most of it has been discussed on this thread already. Since the thread has also "evolved" into criticism of the DM team, I will also offer my constructive criticism.

Response times to requests:
The current response time is absolutely atrocious. I made a joke on my discord that it takes 4d4 weeks to get a formal response to have something done - This in my opinion is unacceptable. A simple message within 12 hours should at least be given to the player making the request that is has been noted and up for discussion. The DM replying should also post the request under the DM subforums for discussion. Requests should NEVER go unanswered.
I believe it is up to the team to actively try to close open requests - not up to the player. Some requests are so simple that it should not take even a day of discussion and should be automatically approved - such as a scouting mission.

It is VERY demoralizing for the player to try and negotiate an event for weeks when they know that his or her character would have already completed the task if not for OOC politics. It should not be the players responsibility to constantly send reminders on a weekly basis and get a few sentences in response, while they see DM approved rumors on the IC rumors feed of opposition players actively working against them.

Most players and DMs use discord. Hit them up there and have a live chat about what they wish to do and calendar it.

Split your focus equally on both sides. If you hold one event for TG, make sure you hold a second for TE.
Impromptu events are great for this. Spawn a boss monster (example) with some nice loot on drop and place it in some map somewhere. Let the players know and have them deal with it. There are many events that you can generate that don't need your direct supervision.

People come here to try and make a change in the world - help them with that. If it is not something that can be done to the players liking - compromise!

Get the events rolled out for both sides - you will have a happier player base in return. This is the responsibility that you accepted when applying for the DM position after all.

BUILD MORALE!!

The thing is, DM effort needs to be transparent for both sides. Its a matter of building trust.
Change starts from the top - not the bottom.

Unfortunately, while I agree with Avanos across the board, I've found that historically the most responsive DMs were usually the first to burn out and disappear. Dreamer, for instance.

Avanos wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:02 pmIt is VERY demoralizing for the player to try and negotiate an event for weeks when they know that his or her character would have already completed the task if not for OOC politics.

BUILD MORALE!!

The thing is, DM effort needs to be transparent for both sides. Its a matter of building trust.
Change starts from the top - not the bottom.

And threads like this, where it becomes endless posts about how, "the DMs are shitty and need to do better," are incredibly demoralizing for the DMs. That demoralization is what leads to requests getting answered slowly.

These things are a cycle, and nothing is solved by throwing blame and accusations -- instead, it more frequently makes the situation worse. I can already say that several active, excited DMs have become less so as a result of the comments in this thread, and may be taking some days off to avoid burning out. That means less DMs to answer requests. That means increased workload on other DMs. That increased workload results in more DMs burning out. More burn out results in even less requests getting answered.

DMs want to help players. They want to build the world and give people fun. They don't want to shit on anyone's efforts. That's the exact opposite of what people become a DM to do. But for them to be able to do that, they have to be supported. They have to feel valued. Throwing shit their way is only going to make them less eager to want to DM, which means they'll be slower and less productive, which means the players then feel more ignored, which then causes the players to throw more blame the DMs' way. It's self-defeating.

As for your own Rockrun request... you tried to get involved almost a year after the plot had started, when it was finally wrapping up, after practically no one had given it any attention for months, and many players were demanding the situation get resolved and NPCs added back to the zone. Quite simply, it was much too late for a new group to get involved in it.

Also, with the new system, all DM requests are automatically posted in the discussion forum. It's not something that has to be manually posted anymore, which helps with keeping track of requests. If anything, it feels like it's lead to an uptick in the number of requests being received.

It should not be the players responsibility to constantly send reminders on a weekly basis and get a few sentences in response, while they see DM approved rumors on the IC rumors feed of opposition players actively working against them.

Why not? DMs are spending hours and hours every day responding to requests, running events, answering PMs, handling drama, and so on. The absolute least the players can do is send in a small reminder every once in awhile to help DMs keep focused. It's only a fraction of the amount of effort the DMs are putting in.

Whenever players say they shouldn't have to send in a small reminder once a week, or even that they shouldn't have to write requests or use the forums at all, all I think is 'entitlement'. DMs are the ones doing all the work. Players are the ones receiving all of the benefits of that work. If the players are not willing to spend even 1% of the time a DM does on making sure things get handled, they really don't have room to complain.

Avanos wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 4:02 pm

In the sense that I am curious about how others feel about their ability to run around and be naughty. Do you find the state of it fulfilling and enjoyable?
And of course what would you like to see improved specifically if you think it could use some?

Im really just wanting to gauge how everyone on this side of the fence feels about their ability to function and in what ways they would see it improved. Whats wrong with things, whats right with things etc etc.

And honestly if folk could have their ideal scenario, what would it be like?

Obviously this is directed at the naughtier folk but if the other side has comments feel free.

I see many good points made on this thread, and I would like to include my feedback as well.

Playing evil is hard, majority of players are good and the server is pitted against you simply with this mindset:

Team Good exists to maintain the status Quo, nearly every fantasy novel that exists, Evil poses a threat, Team good leaves to stop it, Evil is defeated, perhaps not eradicated, people celebrate, and then return to living their lives as they did before the threat, status quo maintained. Please to not hate team good for stopping evil plots, that is just the nature of the world we play in.

We tend to forget that FR is a BIG place, with many areas that evil flourishes and good is on the back end of things. It is not the nature of the world that we play in.
At the same time however - evil tends to undo themselves OOC. They don't jump on opportunities given to them - Rockrun for example. Demoralization plays a big role in this I believe and I do not need to go into depth with details, as most of it has been discussed on this thread already. Since the thread has also "evolved" into criticism of the DM team, I will also offer my constructive criticism.

Response times to requests:
The current response time is absolutely atrocious. I made a joke on my discord that it takes 4d4 weeks to get a formal response to have something done - This in my opinion is unacceptable. A simple message within 12 hours should at least be given to the player making the request that is has been noted and up for discussion. The DM replying should also post the request under the DM subforums for discussion. Requests should NEVER go unanswered.
I believe it is up to the team to actively try to close open requests - not up to the player. Some requests are so simple that it should not take even a day of discussion and should be automatically approved - such as a scouting mission.

It is VERY demoralizing for the player to try and negotiate an event for weeks when they know that his or her character would have already completed the task if not for OOC politics. It should not be the players responsibility to constantly send reminders on a weekly basis and get a few sentences in response, while they see DM approved rumors on the IC rumors feed of opposition players actively working against them.

Most players and DMs use discord. Hit them up there and have a live chat about what they wish to do and calendar it.

Split your focus equally on both sides. If you hold one event for TG, make sure you hold a second for TE.
Impromptu events are great for this. Spawn a boss monster (example) with some nice loot on drop and place it in some map somewhere. Let the players know and have them deal with it. There are many events that you can generate that don't need your direct supervision.

People come here to try and make a change in the world - help them with that. If it is not something that can be done to the players liking - compromise!

Get the events rolled out for both sides - you will have a happier player base in return. This is the responsibility that you accepted when applying for the DM position after all.

BUILD MORALE!!

The thing is, DM effort needs to be transparent for both sides. Its a matter of building trust.
Change starts from the top - not the bottom.

Please pin this message for the future generations!

Edit: I'm online and in game with an afk tag, if something happens please ping me while I'm watching The Witcher

Just going to comment the plot began in September/October, Rockrun was abandoned by the Svirfneblin in November(which made it an open plot), and the Duergar didn't fall until January. Then it took till May for the illithid to fall and a victor to be declared. So almost 2/3 of a year. To my understanding, inciting events were Eilistraeean Drow living in Rockrun and actually being more common than the Svirfneblins, a Qu'ellar Zau'afin assassin nearly succeeding in capturing Lomith for sacrifice inside Rockrun itself, and the Eilistraeeans failing in diplomacy with the Svirfneblin.

Rockrun is on hold for me - I do understand that I entered in late, and it is what it is. I'll figure something out in the future for this map.
However, I blame the players for Rockrun. Team evil failed and failed hard on this - the DM team basically handed them this plot on a silver platter and they did nothing to take it.

What I do criticize the team on is communication.
REPLY in a timely manner! That's all I ask for!

Rhifox - you have a ton on your plate and you have set a GOLD standard. If I pm you with an issue I already know that I am guaranteed a reply within 12-24 hours. You even follow up yourself on issues without players needing to remind you (from what I've seen so far). This is my expectation from the rest of the team.
If one or two messages were to be missed - I'm sure people will not cause a fuss. But do the back-end research. Go through PMs and check to see how long it takes for most events to get processed.

As far as criticism, this will come with the territory - in any job really! You need to steel yourself against all forms of personalities and need to know how to accept criticism whether it be right or wrong. Its the only way to learn and move forward. I've been chewed out by my higher ups on more than one occasion. There are times when I knew I was wrong, and other times where I knew I was right - but I accepted the criticism and learned from it.

We are here to help the DM team as a player-base too - its not fun to log in as a DM and see only one or two people playing. It is a relationship that needs to be maintained.

Being a staff member on BG is just like having any other job. I know that it is unpaid - but at the end of the day, you signed up for it! You accepted the responsibilities of an unpaid position.

As for the DM Request tool:
viewtopic.php?f=444&p=937422#p937422
We need more transparency. We have no idea if something is being worked on or not and I'm sure that players do not want to keep reminding the team.

COMMUNICATION IS KEY!

Being a DM should not be a job. This is everyone's hobby. The DMs already volunteer their own time to do what they can to make this world feel alive. It is not reasonable to expect Amazon/Walmart/McDonalds customer service from unpaid volunteers who are willingly sacrificing their own time for the fun of others.

Yes, DMs volunteer for additional responsibility. No, that doesn't mean we should treat them like customer service reps. Otherwise, very few people will even want to be DMs, and the ones who do will burn out like flashfire.

Wolfrayne wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 7:21 am

mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 9:37 pm

Wolfrayne wrote: ↑Sat May 14, 2022 8:59 pm Honestly i have invested most of my time in other servers/games where there is a risk to everything.

There are no other games with the consequences you describe. There are sweaty pvp games such as Tarkov where there are immediate consequences but nothing similar than what is being described here - player actions affecting the world on a larger scale. BGTSCC is the only place where a character's action's have consequences, especially among the playerbase.

If by affecting the world you mean commanding armies, using exotic teleport devices to transport troops and TPK opponents/settlements/cities then see the effects of your actions update the world ( update in game locations ) then that is a lot to ask even for an AAA game

Incorrect, there are actually other games that are survival games that have D&D based servers where there are very real consequences and its entirely possible to change the world around you. In fact i have spent the last few months playing one such game for their first season which was forgotten realms and based on 5e with an intricate dice system and everything. We took part in the war between Corymyr and the Netherese empire with the players choices having a huge effect on what actually happened. There was skirmishes, Assassinations and large amounts of PVP. Some of which even ended with permadeath of some characters.


Honestly the biggest problem here is that you cant permadeath someone. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that nobody wants to grind up to lvl 30 again when they die. If you made conflict more apparent and allowed people to RCR without penalty you would probably find there would be a much more active player base willing to play both Antag and Protag.

For arguments shake, I will agree with you that there is another game that the devs can find the time to implement the effects of the actions of every player to the environment. Still though, at worst this is how it is for both good and evil characters. Unless of course you mean that consequences should only happen for one side.

Avanos wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 5:58 pm Rockrun is on hold for me - I do understand that I entered in late, and it is what it is. I'll figure something out in the future for this map.
However, I blame the players for Rockrun. Team evil failed and failed hard on this - the DM team basically handed them this plot on a silver platter and they did nothing to take it.

What I do criticize the team on is communication.
REPLY in a timely manner! That's all I ask for!

Rhifox - you have a ton on your plate and you have set a GOLD standard. If I pm you with an issue I already know that I am guaranteed a reply within 12-24 hours. You even follow up yourself on issues without players needing to remind you (from what I've seen so far). This is my expectation from the rest of the team.
If one or two messages were to be missed - I'm sure people will not cause a fuss. But do the back-end research. Go through PMs and check to see how long it takes for most events to get processed.

As far as criticism, this will come with the territory - in any job really! You need to steel yourself against all forms of personalities and need to know how to accept criticism whether it be right or wrong. Its the only way to learn and move forward. I've been chewed out by my higher ups on more than one occasion. There are times when I knew I was wrong, and other times where I knew I was right - but I accepted the criticism and learned from it.

We are here to help the DM team as a player-base too - its not fun to log in as a DM and see only one or two people playing. It is a relationship that needs to be maintained.

Being a staff member on BG is just like having any other job. I know that it is unpaid - but at the end of the day, you signed up for it! You accepted the responsibilities of an unpaid position.

As for the DM Request tool:
viewtopic.php?f=444&p=937422#p937422
We need more transparency. We have no idea if something is being worked on or not and I'm sure that players do not want to keep reminding the team.

COMMUNICATION IS KEY!

I want to say two things about this. I'll play devil's advocate.

1) From what I know OOCly, trust me when I say Team Evil actually acted against this, and time acted against them. They were just fewer, and likely did not know of the other evil-doers interested in Rockrun. Or maybe they just had different plans.

2) Although it can happen replies are slow from DM Team, I've been on servers where requests and tickets and w/e take months if not years to be only looked at. DM Team can be better? Certainly, everything can be improved, but until now I didn't see anything particularly bad in timely responses. And of course, sometimes Real Life happens - and can we really blame DMs for that?

Although I do understand your frustration: maybe you had a plan in mind and it didn't go into fruition! That happens. Those Evil-doers acting against the good-doers probably could have done more if they knew the existence of the other parts. There's a lot of evil Gods in Faerun... and as you may guess, those evil Gods maybe are even in rivalry with each others. So maybe it's why the Team Evil didn't contact the others? I guess we'll never know.