Should we lessen restrictions on the Underdark? [Poll]

[Young Werther]

I voted but I'm not going to say for what or why.

[izzul]

I dont want my Svirf SR removed. he never goes to surface

[DaloLorn]

I dont want my Svirf SR removed. he never goes to surface

I think the proposal was to stick drow/svirfs with a temporary SR debuff when they're on the surface.

[izzul]

I dont want my Svirf SR removed. he never goes to surface

I think the proposal was to stick drow/svirfs with a temporary SR debuff when they're on the surface.

ah, good idea then. make it same with item available in shop SR32 cloak?

[YYA]

Actually, the day-night cycle lasts several hours. Each IG hour is 15 minutes, which means it takes 3 RL hours to go from 6 AM to 6 PM... which, incidentally, means that the server's current reset cycle is timed to one IG day.

I wouldn't object to simply killing SR in the sun, and restoring it out of the sun. That being said, the current daylight/darkness penalty mechanics need to be looked at, since drow are penalized for walking outside at night just as if they were wandering in broad daylight.

Well, I do not think there is an easy way to overcome the limitations imposed by the game engine, so sometimes people just have to accept a little bit of mechanical inconvenience. Such as the suggested loss of SR upon resting in an exterior area, and only regaining it back when resting within an interior area, which would allow a so called drow raiding party to venture out, make their strike, and teleport back without the need to rest. And if a said raid party lingers on the surface regardless of reason, and I do not think you can rest in Nexus anymore, they will eventually lose their Spell Resistance -- after which they are hardly any different to a +1 ECL race.

The people who go out on the surface for role-play reasons will not care much for the temporary loss of SR, such as the lot of naked moondancing drow. As for players who wish to find conflict, they usually have a tendency to only seek it when they are in a position of mechanical advantage, and therefore the temporary loss of innate Spell Resistance will act as a limiting factor. You need to be able to rest in an interior area, which usually would mean either fleeing back into Soubar or the nearest safe spot in a dungeon. Thus a mechanical limitation would encourage the desired role-play behaviour for those who wish to act as drow raiders -- and if they fail to do it; they are 'Kill on Sight' with more or less same ability scores as any other surface Thiefling, Aasimar, or Genasi, and often with less hitpoints due to being an elf.

Once again, it is not a perfect solution, but SR debuff on a rest might make these interactions little bit more amicable all around.

[YYA]

ah, good idea then. make it same with item available in shop SR32 cloak?

And yeah, Drow that go on surface might actually want to go there with some SR items of their own.

[JIŘÍ]

When people are beating the lore into senseless pup lets see what lore says of Baldurs Gate itself:


Society
Baldurians took great pride in the inclusiveness of their city. It was a place anyone could call home, or start a new life within, regardless of race, creed or personal history.[14] Despite its dense population and crowded streets it was remarkably clean and safe for citizens and visitors alike.[16]

As a whole, citizens of Baldur's Gate did not tolerate drunk and debaucherous behavior.[23]

Population
The population of Baldur's Gate was always dominated by humans, though other races such as elves, dwarves, and to a lesser extent some drow, settled within the city and were not looked upon differently.[8] The older districts of the Upper City and Lower City were quite diverse, while newer neighborhoods and those of the Outer City saw some homogenization along ethnic and racial lines. While no race was outright banned, more-monstrous humanoids such as trolls, ogres and orcs were a rare sight indeed.[14]

As anyone was welcome to visit or conduct business in The Gate, its population continually swelled as the city's geographical size grew well beyond its walls. How the city did not collapse upon itself, was unfathomable to many.[8]

References:
Bruce R. Cordell, Ed Greenwood, Chris Sims (August 2008). Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide. Edited by Jennifer Clarke Wilkes, et al. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 94. ISBN 978-0-7869-4924-3.


Drow are mentioned about population. That means not a single one, two or three. but perhaps tens or hundreds of them living in and around city itself.

[Steve]

The population of Baldur's Gate was always dominated by humans, though other races such as elves, dwarves, and to a lesser extent some drow, ....

This is 4e lore, which unfortunately not in the BGTSCC timeline...yet.

[YYA]

Drow are mentioned about population. That means not a single one, two or three. but perhaps tens or hundreds of them living in and around city itself.

And if you go years back, there was that DM led campaign that Tolerance was Treason, and Underdark races were sent into Sshamath (Safe Area), Varalla's Pass (Bats), and the Mushroom Grove (Beetles). It is also good to notice that the current server year is 1357, a good year before the Time of Troubles.

So, let us put things into some chronological perspective:
The Spring of 1347 marks the end the Sojourn novel, where Drizzt Do'Urden found his home along with friends and companions in Icewind Dale.

The Spring of 1356 DR marks the end of the Crystal Shard novel, where Drizzt and his companions defeat Kessel's army along with his Crystal Towers. People talk of wars, and thus rumours and news of Drizzt would start to be up and about. It was still much later that Drizzt had acquired his good reputation, renown that precedes him.

And somehwere between the Summer of 1356 and Spring of 1358 DR, during the pages of the Halfling's Gem Drizzt does visit our good city of Baldur's Gate, while wearing a magical mask that disguises him as a regular elf, or human. Has there been any recent news of Captain Deudermont sailing by? Oh, and by the way this book was published in 1990, which is roughly 18 years before the Forgotten Realms Campaign guide you are quoting there... The chances are that if someone has read those D&D related novels, he has read Drizzt Do'Urden books, and therefore there is also a growing interest to play as Drow. In a way, it can be fun to face constant discrimination, but it can also grow rather old pretty fast. Thus with the third edition D&D, which focuses on the events that transpired well after the Time of Troubles; you have these mentions of drow living in places so that anyone who wishes to play one isn't met with constant pitchforks and torches. And we should not forget that after our Drizzt has been adventuring for few decades now, up and down the Sword Coast. You know, more rumours, more news, of this one goodly aligned Drow.

Thus when the Drow are mentioned about the population, it is inherently about the potential future population. Thus while in the future there might one, two, three, or perhaps tens or hundreds of Drow in the Baldur's Gate or its vicinity... It is not yet that day today. Which is one of the reasons why I have voted no, and it is simply a judgement based from the perspective of the Forgotten Realm setting itself.

[izzul]

I remember back in 2010 or 2011 when my drow lvl 21 goes to surface through Netherese.

a DM asked him why he is on the surface after moving out of Durlag and got a warning
"if you dont have any RP reason, make sure to go back to UD, better not to save location on the surface too".

this is what i love, a sense of danger and being watched to not overstep the boudaries.

[Calen]

BGC is a medium RP server that is for all sorts of rp flavours, nd we have people that enjoy playing classes/characters that aren't plausible lore wise.
If something is inconvenient RP wise, this server allows you to ignore it for the sake of every one having fun.

1: You don't need to be a roleplayer to be on this server
2: Skill rolls can be ignored
3: Pvp cannot be enforced
4: Stats can be ignored
5: You can play almost anything you like with out being forced to rp some classes.
6: Bosses are tuned for power building as a challenge for the loot run crowd.
7 Setting can be ignored for the sake of RP
8 Changes are made for the sake of balance even when it is straying away from source material. (

I honestly don't see a problem with drow being on the surface with how RP is approached on this server.
There will be a good amount of people having fun , just let them.
This approach has its own merits and is a good middle ground for all these type of players.

I would prefer a bit more RP heavy setting myself, but with what this server currently does I think surface Drow should be allowed.

[GholaMan]

I'm all for opening up the surface to UD races, however I believe that preventative measures would likely need to be taken to lessen the drow (and deep gnomes) coming to the surface for just pvp or looting. The 41 SR both drow and deep gnome get set them high above other races in terms of power, so having some sort of permanent 10 SR reduction (mords effect) from being on the surface for all (even the ones with the surface feat) of them would help to put them more in line with other races.

No, just no. Please, stop this is a horrible idea, for one 41 SR is not racially exclusive, anyone with 30 divine caster levels and the spell resistance buff can hit 41 SR. If you are playing a build that has more than 30 CL than you can get SR higher than 41. This kind of attitude is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. Not only does this statement completely disregard my time as a human being because I spent the extra time to level up a CR +2 character.

So please all of you who are entertaining this idea, abandon it. Its absolutely dumb, do not even begin to take this idea or thought seriously, assuming that the OOC rules about drow going to the surface remain the exact same it will not change my character from making clandestine meetings with surfacers the same RP that is happening now with drow visiting the surface will continue. So acting like loosing 10 SR so you can go to the surface isn't even a trade, it would make it actively worse than it is now. I would much rather have the rules stay as is than this kind of pointless suggestion

So I'll take a jab at the pvp issue, which I usually remain silent on since I am personally not a huge fan of pvp. PvP is sometimes necessary for the sake of Immersion, character development, plot, storyline etc. Playing a hero that overcomes trials and tribulations to finally smite down their hated foe is a perfectly fine roleplaying goal. Heros and antagonists need one another, its a symbiotic relationship that requires partnership on both sides. If you want to play an antagonist you are basically agreeing to be someone's obstacle that eventually you will probably loose. Having the hero's win most stories in the end is fine, that is how most stories go, that is how most of the lore in FR goes.

But here is the problem, if you are playing evil, not just drow, but especially if you are playing a drow you get labled as a pvp baiter, a troll. Which pretty much sums up the reasons why I personally avoid pvp even when I really shouldn't. How is it that people can say 'seeing drow ruins my immersion' then also exclaim that 'conflict is going to be a problem'. Which pretty much puts me in an impossible situation, people want drow players to be boogeymen but then act upset when drow actually act like said boogeymen and then retaliate via metagaming, ooc bullying, labeling drow players as pvp baiters. So what do i do? Act hostile for the sake of immersion then forever be known as a troll or do I avoid pvp entirely and just have clandestine meetings in a morally dubious town with other villain characters? I mean either way it doesn't help anyone, both of those are not ideal scenarios i still have no hero to be a villain to, there is no thorn in my characters side save the frustration and feeling like I have to tip toe through eggshells when dealing with players and staff alike.

When it comes to the server there is a culture of dealing with the UD by ooc punishments with a clear favor toward the surface players in most circumstances. And yes i mean ooc rules, not IC consequences just straight up getting banned, blanket rules that only apply to the smallest minority of players. And when you combine all of that yes, of course you are going to get unsatisfying feelings when any drow show up. Any villian character for that matter, I want my character to be treated like a villain, I dont want to be treated like one.

[Truthiness]

Speaking purely on the mechanical side of things, the Spell Resistance drow and deep gnome get is vastly better than obtainable by clerics/druids/etc, it's not breachable nor dispellable, it's always active and even if your spell resistance gets reduced by 10 via mords, breach or otherwise, a lesser restoration or restoration wand can get it back up to 41. If a cleric/druids/etc has theirs breached or dispelled, they have to have a second one or third one prepared. The only option clerics/favored souls have to not have it breached is to use mass spell resistance, which lasts for 1 round/cl. No other race has anything even comparable to it in terms of power, maybe if they added higher SR items it would be less of an issue.

On the RP side of things, I don't see how a 10 SR reduction on the surface would impact non-combat RP all that much.

[DaloLorn]

I'm all for opening up the surface to UD races, however I believe that preventative measures would likely need to be taken to lessen the drow (and deep gnomes) coming to the surface for just pvp or looting. The 41 SR both drow and deep gnome get set them high above other races in terms of power, so having some sort of permanent 10 SR reduction (mords effect) from being on the surface for all (even the ones with the surface feat) of them would help to put them more in line with other races.

No, just no. Please, stop this is a horrible idea, for one 41 SR is not racially exclusive, anyone with 30 divine caster levels and the spell resistance buff can hit 41 SR. If you are playing a build that has more than 30 CL than you can get SR higher than 41. This kind of attitude is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. Not only does this statement completely disregard my time as a human being because I spent the extra time to level up a CR +2 character.

So please all of you who are entertaining this idea, abandon it. Its absolutely dumb, do not even begin to take this idea or thought seriously, assuming that the OOC rules about drow going to the surface remain the exact same it will not change my character from making clandestine meetings with surfacers the same RP that is happening now with drow visiting the surface will continue. So acting like loosing 10 SR so you can go to the surface isn't even a trade, it would make it actively worse than it is now. I would much rather have the rules stay as is than this kind of pointless suggestion

So I'll take a jab at the pvp issue, which I usually remain silent on since I am personally not a huge fan of pvp. PvP is sometimes necessary for the sake of Immersion, character development, plot, storyline etc. Playing a hero that overcomes trials and tribulations to finally smite down their hated foe is a perfectly fine roleplaying goal. Heros and antagonists need one another, its a symbiotic relationship that requires partnership on both sides. If you want to play an antagonist you are basically agreeing to be someone's obstacle that eventually you will probably loose. Having the hero's win most stories in the end is fine, that is how most stories go, that is how most of the lore in FR goes.

But here is the problem, if you are playing evil, not just drow, but especially if you are playing a drow you get labled as a pvp baiter, a troll. Which pretty much sums up the reasons why I personally avoid pvp even when I really shouldn't. How is it that people can say 'seeing drow ruins my immersion' then also exclaim that 'conflict is going to be a problem'. Which pretty much puts me in an impossible situation, people want drow players to be boogeymen but then act upset when drow actually act like said boogeymen and then retaliate via metagaming, ooc bullying, labeling drow players as pvp baiters. So what do i do? Act hostile for the sake of immersion then forever be known as a troll or do I avoid pvp entirely and just have clandestine meetings in a morally dubious town with other villain characters? I mean either way it doesn't help anyone, both of those are not ideal scenarios i still have no hero to be a villain to, there is no thorn in my characters side save the frustration and feeling like I have to tip toe through eggshells when dealing with players and staff alike.

When it comes to the server there is a culture of dealing with the UD by ooc punishments with a clear favor toward the surface players in most circumstances. And yes i mean ooc rules, not IC consequences just straight up getting banned, blanket rules that only apply to the smallest minority of players. And when you combine all of that yes, of course you are going to get unsatisfying feelings when any drow show up. Any villian character for that matter, I want my character to be treated like a villain, I dont want to be treated like one.

I am... unsure how to respond to this.

On the one hand, I can find little fault with your arguments for preserving unconditional drow/svirf SR on the surface. There's also the fact that, from a development point of view, properly removing/reducing it without unintended side effects will probably prove quite problematic - as if all the other stuff wasn't enough justification to keep it as-is.

On the other hand... I've said it before, and I still believe that this is the case: The SR doesn't mean half as much as everyone says it does. It slightly constrains the enemy's tactics, but it hardly makes a drow, svirf, monk, or divine caster invincible. I'd rather keep it if I can, but weighed against the things people seem prepared to give UDers in return? It comes across as a very small price to pay for a very big improvement, IMO. If it can be implemented.

Speaking purely on the mechanical side of things, the Spell Resistance drow and deep gnome get is vastly better than obtainable by clerics/druids/etc, it's not breachable nor dispellable, it's always active and even if your spell resistance gets reduced by 10 via mords, breach or otherwise, a lesser restoration or restoration wand can get it back up to 41. If a cleric/druids/etc has theirs breached or dispelled, they have to have a second one or third one prepared. The only option clerics/favored souls have to not have it breached is to use mass spell resistance, which lasts for 1 round/cl. No other race has anything even comparable to it in terms of power, maybe if they added higher SR items it would be less of an issue.

On the RP side of things, I don't see how a 10 SR reduction on the surface would impact non-combat RP all that much.

See, "vastly better than X" does not automatically make X amazing. AoS, me, and several others have outlined anti-drow procedures in multiple Discords since this thread was posted, and while some of them do assume your build is something it's not, there are others that just need you to customize your attack plan to suit your enemy:

• Smack the drow with a club or what have you. SR is irrelevant here, and drow have lower CON that makes them (... slightly...) more susceptible to this approach. Martials do this anyway, and if you're telling me a fighter or barbarian can't do that without whatever UMD spells the drow shrugs off, I think that says more about UMD skewing gameplay than it does about the power of drow. (I haven't heard anyone mention anything except Bigbies and Disjunctions so far.)
• Sneak attack, sneak attack, sneak attack! Same thing as above, only adjusted for more roguish builds.
• Disjunct, control, and kill at your leisure. Yeah, a restoration will bring their SR back to full power (not that I knew that until now!), but they have to be awake and standing in order to cast one. Quicken a Hold Person or some other disabling spell, then proceed with your save-or-dies or whatever while their SR is down.
  
  Alternatively, use a control spell that isn't affected by SR (Grease is a fan favorite, but I figure you could also get good results out of Evards, Swamp Lung, Deadly Lahar, Great Thunderclap, etc.), then disjunct, then control harder (if needed), and kill at your leisure.
• Empowered Orb of Force. Dual Quickened Starbolt. Maximized Starbolt. Tenacious Plague. And that's just a sampling of the stuff you can use if you expect a full set of Energy Immunities on an Improved Evasion build!
  
  Disjuncting their wards first may also open up such things as Vitriolic Blast, Deadly Lahar, Greater Shout...
• In an emergency, just ignore SR. If you're a full caster (and if you're not, you have no business trying to hurt anyone with offensive spells!), you've still got roughly 50-50 odds of landing your spell.
  
  Or, if you absolutely, really want to be positively sure they'll never resist your SR spells? Archmage/Hierophant is thattaway. Epic Spell Penetration is in the corner over here. That's already pushed them down to 10% resistance. If you tack on Red Wizard or Blood Magus levels on top of that, or Blood Magic, you'll completely neutralize their SR against a whole school of magic (if not all the schools at once).

Opening with breaches or disjunctions is useful, whether you're dealing with SR or not. It's just that it might be somewhat overlooked when Bigbies seem to be the opening spell of choice for most people.

[Arn]

Voted yes. Some of my most fun RP over the years has been interactions with drow characters, both on the surface and in the UD.