Balance??

[Steve]

You have a gaming environment, that even with its current bugs and problems, it works the way the admins, devs and DMs want.

What? Is this a mistype?

Also, on the matter of rebuilds: it is already a policy, and has been for sometime, that any Build relying on a known Bug—Dispel Bug being just one—is not subject to rebuilds. That principle falls under this Server Rule:

– No Character Rebuilds unless under rare circumstances (corrupted bic, etc.). This includes feat swaps. It is up to you to make sure you build the right Character. De-levels are permitted. No refunds for reset and crash deaths; no refunds for bugged bodies.

[Blackman D]

its a fine line yes

however saying obvious bugs is like saying common sense is common, its not to some, so then the issue is how do you tell the difference between people who built around the bugs knowing good and well they were broken vs someone who honestly had no idea and took whatever because it seemed like a good idea

so do we punish people who just play the game to have fun and dont really go into mechanics (which tends to be a good number of people) or do we sort of just bite the bullet and offer rebuilds to those that did it on purpose?

[Rasael]

I think we should just put a de-level NPC in the Nexus, and allow one free re-level per character. Making mistakes is human after all.

Conventiently that NPC could also be used to deal with bugfixes and refunds. Instead of RCRs.

[Steve]

It's a generous idea, Ras.

@BMD: do I think that some Players build Gishes with unintentionally low CR, so that they can have a better AB, knowing their Buffs will not be dispelled because CL is used for Dispel? No.

The bug has been known for sooooo very long, we talk about it all the time...how could someone be purely ignorant? Even if...there is the RCR Tool NPC, which is pretty generous as it is.

[mrm3ntalist]

Now I'm a bit confused. I understand that rebuilds would have to be offered if classes got changed significantly, but why would fixing obvious bugs (bugs that are obvious to anyone who can read) result in rebuilds? Shouldn't the policy be that there are no rebuilds for fixing obvious bugs? Including the now already notorious "coming soon" CL bug? If someone builds a character around a bug, they do so with the knowledge that the bug might get fixed at one point. If someone builds an archer which depends on that extra 5d6 damage, well, though break.As for is it important? Yes, as evident from recent discussions about sneaks. Expose Weakness is another one. Do you know how many times I've seen someone say "oh well your AB is low, but who cares, you will get EW anyway lol"? It's a crutch feat for some, and needless icing on top of an already existing icing on the cake for others.

Why you think the CL fix hasn't been implemented yet? Or the PSc? Fixes for these things already exist and the QC is in agreement that those should be fixed - total agreement if they are implemented simultaneously. Its because of what you said - BG is an old server and in a way the bugs are part of the servers foundation. Changing them will require much effort and some uproar is expected. Hypothetically speaking, If the DMs decide to offer rebuilds in order to counter the uproar, that will only help, even though they are bugs that people used.

In a few words, the impact that the changes will have on the players is taken into consideration, at least that is my belief.

You have a gaming environment, that even with its current bugs and problems, it works the way the admins, devs and DMs want.

What? Is this a mistype?

Not a mistype, but not what you have in mind either. I am not saying that the DMs are fine with the current bugs and exploits ( I am pretty certain that was your immediate thought ), but that they are fine with BG as a whole and the gaming experience it provides.

I think we should just put a de-level NPC in the Nexus, and allow one free re-level per character. Making mistakes is human after all.

Conventiently that NPC could also be used to deal with bugfixes and refunds. Instead of RCRs.

I think that a delevel NPC wont work for the following two reasons.
- Deleveling a character can corrupt it and can be exploited. It will need a lot of scripting to make that work with no issues.
- The delevel is not enough because some ability (or skill or initial class etc) adjustment might be needed , in order to "compensate" for the fix.

[thids]

Well in someone's case like myself, I never realised my Archer/Assassin's damage was the result of a bug. I always thought my decent damage was just because it was an optimized build I found online.

So in a case like mine, I'd be shocked to log on and find myself dealing less damage if I was not informed. Obviously now is a different case, since I now know I've been cheating. (Sorry)

I didn't accuse you or anyone else of cheating. By those standards anyone who uses a scroll or a wand with a 0 CL character would be a cheater.

Playing characters which benefit from bugs like manyshot-DA and CL is not illegal.

I think we should just put a de-level NPC in the Nexus, and allow one free re-level per character. Making mistakes is human after all.

Conventiently that NPC could also be used to deal with bugfixes and refunds. Instead of RCRs.

That would probably be the easiest way to handle something like this, however one free rebuild per character would bring a whole new feature to the server and the numerous possibilities that it brings would need to be considered carefully.

[Blackman D]

It's a generous idea, Ras.

@BMD: do I think that some Players build Gishes with unintentionally low CR, so that they can have a better AB, knowing their Buffs will not be dispelled because CL is used for Dispel? No.

The bug has been known for sooooo very long, we talk about it all the time...how could someone be purely ignorant? Even if...there is the RCR Tool NPC, which is pretty generous as it is.

well my comment was a more generalized statement for bug issues, but yea that one is fairly well known by now but still applies when there are new people playing or people new to casters

is that one unlikely? yea ill give you that, but in general it still stands as something that isnt that common unless you are remotely familiar with caster mechanics

and you cant argue that people pick up any game fully aware of all its mechanical workings

[Grimcheese]

I suppose I should use a puffin image for this...but there's too much text to fit it in the image.

In my opinion, builds that rely on exploits and/or bugs should be prepared for the moment when those loopholes will be closed. The people who will complain the loudest about it being fixed are more often than not people who know precisely what they are doing when they are building to make the most of the exploits.

I am not against a free rebuild for people who want to reroll once the fixes come in and pull the rug out from under these builds, but it would be preferable if they had started with builds that didn't rely so heavily on something broken in the first place, so the sting of nerfing wouldn't be so painful, and the fixes wouldn't be mired in the political dookiestorms that they are now.

Just my opinion, though. v v