What is a Druid?

[Planehopper]

Pretty sure it is things like this:

I also want to say that Hoihe is wrong: Druids aren't "specialty priests".

That change the dynamic of a conversation. Especially when things like this:

Druids, the most common type of specialty priest, tend to worship outside of standard temple complexes, and instead wander the land, collecting into loosely affiliated circles throughout the Realms

Are in the forgotten realms campaign setting, revised (2nd edition), p. 17.

Is the source wrong? Maybe. Is there a conflicting source elsewhere? It wouldnt be a decades-old game if there weren't. It doesn't mean someone is wrong, it means they have looked at the same bunch of stuff we all have and have a different opinion.

I tried as a player to steer this conversation toward fewer absolutes and more possibilities. I offer quotes and references so that others could use them to help formulate their opinions. With multiple circles with multiple leaders it seemed clear to me that there are several options available for druidic RP, and as has been presented here there are several sources that conflict upon themselves, opening the door to interesting and varied beliefs.

As a player, I appreciate varied viewpoints when they are backed up by lore and resources. I think it is important that we all play with the same materials available to read and review, but less important that we all agree on them. If there is ever a rub, a sticking point, it isnt for us as players to decide anyway.

[Deathgrowl]

Fair enough. I stand corrected.

[Ravial]

Think you defeated your own purpose with sarcasm, strawman arguments, and pontification.

Well, if you see it like that I can do nothing to change your perspective. I'll only say: I haven't used any strawman arguments- that's very reaching of you to say that. As for pontification, I'll leave it with an old saying from my region. "The old ox has forgotten how he was a calf".

Any jokes or meme references in my posts are purely for entertainment's sake. Getting downright serious over a forum post IRL is a bit of a waste of time in a community that, at least should be, centred about fun and after-work relaxation.

I haven't ever seen anything say that druids need to pray to gain spells.

Well

Those before me have listed that druids:

• Can't use spells of opposed alignments
• Need a divine patron that grants them spells
• Their deeds are dictated by their religious tradition (specific god worship)
• "Balance" is only a thing Silvanites believe in and Shadow Druids are... Also Silvanites in FR.
• Gods of Nature, like Silvanus, favour druids as his vanguard in his agendas. Means druids are important and have expectations

What else to add...

Same quotes that Deathgrow posted, but in an image. Don't take me wrong, I am all for people roleplaying their classes however nicely they want, but all characters have to stay true to the setting which informs you, all the time, that all druids are priests. In light of everything that had been said and shown, saying anything close to "it's not written they pray, so it's not a thing" is just wrong.

Unlike clerics, they are not truly beholden to one god.

Except they are. All priests are beholden to a singular deity with the ability to pay their respects to their Patron's allies or superiors. But your Patron always comes first.

And sure, nobody has been saying that Eldathyn would go on an absolute bloody rampage. What I'm saying is that when they're not forced to work with their enemies, they wouldn't. The druids are still expected to behave accordingly to the credo they swore to follow, as per their spiritual oaths.

Deathgrowl has summed it up nicely, again.

This is why there's a lot of druids of Silvanus that breed monsters and release them near towns and villages to get rid of pesky settlers.

Not that I am doubting you on this one, but can you point me toward the reference material on that?

I'm too busy to scour through my books right now, but it was somewhere related to others quoting that Silvanites help brigands/bandits, breed predators in wildlife and do more things in terms of what is nicely called "population control" against civilisation. I'll look it up on my free time.

[bharring]

Should we move this to General Discussion, and maybe post a synompsis to Roleplaying Guides?

I feel like every post and poster has an interesting and helpful argument/viewpoint that can be used by druids.

I feel like where this went sideways is where this thread went both prescriptive and proscriptive instead of merely suggestive.

There are some hard rules for Druids to RP "properly" (like no metal armor unless you're Mielekkian, cannot be LG/LE/CG/CE, must have a deity), but much of what we talked about here aren't hard rules.

[yyj]

I was always used to see druids wanting to destroy civilisation, destroy undead and worship nature.

Here I have seen other roleplaying styles and it's valid. I may disagree with these styles because I am used to see druids roleplayed differently for decades.

The world is big enough I guess for everyone to live in together in harmony, but don't expect everyone to agree.

We all have our own minds and if we all agreed on everything then individuality would be a worthless trait.

[bharring]

Of the two sources showing that Druids are Clerics:
-The first says a particular Clergy contains Druids
-The second says particular roles are filled by Druids

Both, at most, suggest some druids are part of the formal church of some gods. That's a long way from saying all druids must be proper, formal members of their god's church.

Also, as for `Their deeds are dictated by their religious tradition (specific god worship)`: There's proof in this thread that druids serve a specific god. That doesn't mean they follow that specific god's one-and-only "this is the way" dogma.

For a counterexample, look at the Grugach. First, while most followers of the Seldarine worship them *instead* of Silvanus and company, the Grugach worship both. Second, while every god they revere is revered by other cultures, Grugach cultures would practice the same divine arts differently. Even specifically in their druidic magics, they're more expressive and use more components than other patrons of the same deities. So, clearly, there's more than one way to be a druid of the same god.

[Hoihe]

Of the two sources showing that Druids are Clerics:
-The first says a particular Clergy contains Druids
-The second says particular roles are filled by Druids

Both, at most, suggest some druids are part of the formal church of some gods. That's a long way from saying all druids must be proper, formal members of their god's church.

Also, as for `Their deeds are dictated by their religious tradition (specific god worship)`: There's proof in this thread that druids serve a specific god. That doesn't mean they follow that specific god's one-and-only "this is the way" dogma.

For a counterexample, look at the Grugach. First, while most followers of the Seldarine worship them *instead* of Silvanus and company, the Grugach worship both. Second, while every god they revere is revered by other cultures, Grugach cultures would practice the same divine arts differently. Even specifically in their druidic magics, they're more expressive and use more components than other patrons of the same deities. So, clearly, there's more than one way to be a druid of the same god.

Grugach were mentioned only once, in a 1st edition sourcebook as a monster race. A monster race that are 135 cm tall, attack other elves and do not use any magic except for druidic. (Monster Manual II 1st edition p 63)

In Forgotten Realms, wild elves are everything but 135 cm tall and like all other elves, consider hurting their kin without just cause (self-defence, reanimation and other horrible crimes) to be a grave sin. Wild elves live upon Evermeet, upon Faerun amongst other places. in 2E sourcebooks, they were called "Green Elves", and in 3E, they were split to Wood and Wild.



On what these nature spirits may mean, consultation of Demihuman deities reveal that Rillifane had subsumed a number of Algarondian minor powers. These are probably what are referred to. However, in Elves of Evermeet, a few more totemic spirits are listed.

As a further proof against why "grugach" got nothing to do with FR wild elves is the fact that the favoured class of FR wild elves is sorcerer. Which goes against "grugach don't use any magic except for druidic."

[bharring]

When I say "Grugach", I mean "Wild elves", as it's generally considered another term for them. I'll try to avoid using that term, as you're saying it's not commonly used when talking about Faerun's version of them.

Regardless, it's a distinction without a difference. What I posted was about Faerun's version, not the generic version.

Regardless, my point was explicitly stated in that quote: "This worship does not approach the regimented, organized structure of the other elven subraces". The text is clear that they worship the same deities differently from other worshipers. So it's further proof that worship in Faerun isn't always the "one true way" for any given god.

Edit:
"Korreds are curious folk indeed to humans, who tend to lump them together with the fey, dangerous creatures of the woods and wilderlands (like satyrs, grugach, leprechauns, and pixies) that are best avoided." - Page 43, Dragon 119, reference to Forgotten Realms.

It's archaic and limited enough that it could be retconned/ignored.

[Ravial]

Nomenclature aside, elves aren't humans. When you think about elves, you have to realise that humans are less agile than elves, not "We are the more dexterous bunch than humans". They have their own standards and their own view upon the world.

As such, them worshipping Seldarine is the common thing to do, across the board in fact. Wild elves primarily focus on Rillifane and Fenmarel that led them out of drow slavery. They also placate spirit totems for magical enhancements.

With Silvanus, it is the Wood Elves that respect him. Not as a God and patron, though, but an elder spirit of nature.

And yes, the thing with Chaotic Faiths overall is that they're loosely organised, with a lot of regional traditions that are tied up with others in main the general ceremonies. Doesn't change the key, core elements like druids being clergy, however.

[bharring]

Some good points. But I'm still missing the evidence that *all* druids are members of the clergy?

[Hydros]

Some good points. But I'm still missing the evidence that *all* druids are members of the clergy?

Planehoppers first post in the thread. Referencing the Revised Campaign Box Set.

[Ravial]

I mean, it was given before xD

They get Divine Spells. Divine Spells are given only by deities. Deities don't give spells on a whim- you require dedication for it. Be it a paladin, cleric, druid, ranger or otherwise. Druids get to be hierophants, which means high priesthood and leaders of the local collective of the faith, so they have the power to pull off the biggest divine miracle things. They're all counted as clergy within their respective faiths and some even make them more important than clerics.

More importantly, a druid loses his or hers power when they abandon their Deity. I think that is telling the most.

[Planehopper]

Faiths and Avatars, p. 184

"Druids in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting have as their base spheres of access major access to the all, animal, elemental,
healing, plant, and weather spheres. They also have minor access to the divination sphere. Almost all druids of the Realms venerate specific deities rather than nature as a disembodied concept."

Almost all.

Options, folks. Opinions are fine, options and collaboration are better.

[bharring]

Some good points. But I'm still missing the evidence that *all* druids are members of the clergy?

Planehoppers first post in the thread. Referencing the Revised Campaign Box Set.

From that quote:
"Druids, the most common type of specialty priest" - We all agree that druid serve individual gods, so priest. But that doesn't mean the formal clergy.
"tend to worship outside of standard temple complexes" - Worship outside the temples clergy tend to use
"These druid circles fill the same requirements as church hierarchies do within the clerical faiths" - The Circles are contrasted with Church orgs, and druids are directly contrasted with clerical faiths - implying druids are not members of the clergy

I read those statements as very strongly suggesting not *all* druids are members of the clergy. Almost to the point of suggesting most are not.

[bharring]

They get Divine Spells. Divine Spells are given only by deities. Deities don't give spells on a whim- you require dedication for it. Be it a paladin, cleric, druid, ranger or otherwise. Druids get to be hierophants, which means high priesthood and leaders of the local collective of the faith, so they have the power to pull off the biggest divine miracle things. They're all counted as clergy within their respective faiths and some even make them more important than clerics.

I think we're talking past eachother.

There are two claims. The first is that druids worship specific gods. That's not what I was asking about.

What I'm asking about is:

They're all counted as clergy within their respective faiths and some even make them more important than clerics.

Where is the evidence for *this specific claim*?

Above, there's evidence that some druids are definitely part of the clergy. But there's also evidence that druids are not part of the clergy. Take a look at my quotes from Planehopper's first post. Strongly suggests druids are not (always) part of the clergy.

Also, dedication is not 100% required for deities to provide power. A Favored Soul are granted power through grace or favor, not always dedication (although may provide both). Dedication is likely the most common way to get power. And the most common form of dedication is adherence to clerical rules, with most spells being granted to members of the clergy. But that's most of most, not all of all.

Rangers are often depicted as venerating a specific deity, and maybe even regularly performing the appropriate ritual. But it's quite a stretch to say all (spellcasting-capable) rangers are clergy, or members of a clerical order. Druids tend to be even more set apart than rangers, which is saying something.

More importantly, a druid loses his or hers power when they abandon their Deity. I think that is telling the most.

Or if they share the druidic language with a non-druid. Is there any reason to believe Malar would be upset if a Malarite druid taught Malarite clerics to track/read Eldrathyn druidic markings? So service to Malar is not the *only* necessity for a Malarite druid.