Going to Leave the Evil to the DMs

[Steve]

... character evilflag and holyguy ran into each other....

Lol. I actually want to meet those superheros!

Both with people wanting to force consequences on people and PvP stomping as a form of evil RP.

My disillusion does not stem from being unable to PvP roflstomp, as an Evil PC. I just wanted to say that, consider the context my the OP, my OP, here, in this thread.

For me Evil RP is when the Living Environment is available to the PC, and to the Player, in order to manifest some meaningful relationship. Players and DMs alike, commenting in this thread, probably know me well enough now to know just how much I either attempt or request to bring the Evil RP alive, from a player driven perspective. I essentially burned out, plain as that. You can chalk it up to anecdotes of unfullfilment, or, just seeing a more F.U.N. opportunity on the solely Good side of things. Meaning: if the DMs are creating Evil Antagonists all the time—and not creating Good Antagonists—then playing Good actually gives me, as a Player, something to react against.

And the DM simply has far more tools and powers of decision making than I do as a Player. Hellz, I should know: I was a BGTSCC DM/Head DM! So I'm not talking out my arse here.

I can put this another way: I'm sure there are PLENTY of Evil PCs that would LOVE to put Arkaine Half-Orken in the grave. But, we as Players know that it will NEVER happen, unless Atlas decides to let that happen. So, as and Evil PC player, if you know full well that it can never happen, you just don't try and do it. Conversely, I'm sure that there are PLENTY of Good PCs that would LOVE to put the Dreadlord in the grave, permanently. But again, unless the Player of Selengil is willing, it won't happen, no matter how many OSHs/OSRs/DHs/Illmaters you bring together to do it.

I actually don't even want to advocate that putting another PC in the grave permanently is the ultimate form of Evil RP. Actually, for me, the ultimate form is to see the actions of a PC effect real and visible changes to the environment. Like, if a bunch of thugs wanted to blow up the market, for a few weeks, the market would appear blown up. This is but a poor and quick example of inability to manifest evil (and simply technical limiations...except for when a DM can make this happen during one Server reset).

Which brings me to a final point: DMs are and can make Evil RP come alive, and they do...with NPCs. They do it far better and with more possibility for RP, than any Player can. Take Bloodlust's NPC development in 1351 (as well as the rest of the DM Team at that time).

But it can also be said that DMs are and can make Good RP come alive...in terms of providing Good NPCs and mobs that Evil PCs can take action against. But unfortunately, this type of Event pales in comparison to the previous paragraph I wrote!

My goal with past Evil RP was to create Characters and Factions and Churches and Guilds that would establish themselves as equals to any Good faction/guild/group, in the Sword Coast, Baldur's Gate milieu. But I have only come away with feeling that those efforts was never really wanted, by either PC or DM. This is my experience, and mine alone to mention.

Like I said a few times already, and what this thread is about, is that, if you see your RP attempts fail, and you don't want to get bitter and quit, then take responsibility for your game and change the paradigm into something you think will be fun, and give you pleasure in the game. Instead of frustration.

That's my last 2 cents, though...I think I've spent about a dollar so far!! lol Cheers.

[Ithilan]

It has always been an issue on here that evil does not get a lot of freedom or attention. Some of it is obvious and im sorry if you feel im lashing out at you specifically mister random evil guy. But the RP that many people are bend on when creating an evil aligned PC is so simple and boring, its actually immersion breaking for the people around them.

I see a lot of evil people talking about consequences and wanting to ruin X guild or faction, yet I never see the evil guy willing to take the full extend of his punishment for death penalty actions IC.

So we are at a stalemate as usual, where neither part wants to relinquish anything for their counter parts to thrive too. Well sod that I say, give and take with even hand, we need evil players for the good ones to thrive and very much the other way around.

I dont really care how the staff handles it or percieves it, because they can only do so much. It is from the player base that this willingness has to come and its from interactions across alignments that the really intrigueing and worthwhile RP will be had. I can understand why many would cry for more DM attention, but that will only help to divide the server even more in to a setting similar to that which we have with the surface and underdark.

Id like to invite any evil players that want to make interactions with the Halls of Inner Light guild and the faiths represented therein, to contact me. I wont gaurentee that I or we as a guild want to condone every plot you may present, but we will be glad to have interactions that are worthwhile and collaborate to give purpose to a broader selection of players, if only through player driven plots, so be it. But id gladly give it a try and there is so much awesome lore that is just brimming with conflict and intrigues, waiting to be ceased by us.. players.

Ill only request that any Sharrans steer clear of utilizing this option im presenting, since secrecy is your strongest tool, use it OOCly and ICly both. Reap the rewards later, I know who some of the Sharrans are on the server OOCly, but ive also played one in the past and had it entirely ruined for me by metagaming and so id advise you keep your cards close at hand.

But honestly, this topic serves little purpose Steve. The problem as I percieve is not and never was the staff, but like another hot topic touches on, consequenes.. and the fact that others want to impose consequences for their peers and not themselves.

Peace

[Steve]

But honestly, this topic serves little purpose Steve. The problem as I percieve is not and never was the staff, but like another hot topic touches on, consequenes.. and the fact that others want to impose consequences for their peers and not themselves.

Peace

Honestly? Honestly honestly?!? What would be a dishonest response, then?

I can't really respond to you, because you read it all wrong mate. Sorry!

[Ithilan]

But honestly, this topic serves little purpose Steve. The problem as I percieve is not and never was the staff, but like another hot topic touches on, consequenes.. and the fact that others want to impose consequences for their peers and not themselves.

Peace

Honestly? Honestly honestly?!? What would be a dishonest response, then?

I can't really respond to you, because you read it all wrong mate. Sorry!

It would be saying this topic serves a purpose other than ventilating your frustrations over not having a greenlighted plot hook that has consequences for others without their consent.
I read what you wrote, maybe you should give that benefit to others as well.

Im saying the problem is not the lack of DM attention for evil aligned players, but the rift between between alignments in the player base and id like to make an effort to make it more prosperous for both sides. But I see that wont happen now.

[Steve]

It would be saying this topic serves a purpose other than ventilating your frustrations over not having a greenlighted plot hook that has consequences for others without their consent.
I read what you wrote, maybe you should give that benefit to others as well.

Why do you even say that, that I'm frustrated over not having my personal plot hook "greenlighted?" A Living Environment that I fail to find that supports Evil RP has little to do with personal plot hooks. It has EVERYTHING to do with having your Evil RP have plots AVAILABLE to it, to react against or with. It is actually not mine I want(ed) to see, and experience manifest, but THEIRS!!!

And considering Theirs does manifest in the many, many Server plots—wide and thin—were playing from a good alignment gives a Player instantaneous position to react against or with, I am saying even louder than "frustration" that I'm happy to let Them do it, manifest that living environment, the one where Good-to-Nuetral alignments, groups/factions/guilds, thrive. I'm actually cheering Them on, to bring the Evil RP from an NPC standpoint!!

But at the very least, my OP served to notify the various Players—and DMs—en masse, that I'm dropping all the Evil RP and shelving the Characters. So how does that NOT serve a purpose, beyond what YOU say?!?

[aaron22]

It has always been an issue on here that evil does not get a lot of freedom or attention. Some of it is obvious and im sorry if you feel im lashing out at you specifically mister random evil guy. But the RP that many people are bend on when creating an evil aligned PC is so simple and boring, its actually immersion breaking for the people around them.

I see a lot of evil people talking about consequences and wanting to ruin X guild or faction, yet I never see the evil guy willing to take the full extend of his punishment for death penalty actions IC.

So we are at a stalemate as usual, where neither part wants to relinquish anything for their counter parts to thrive too. Well sod that I say, give and take with even hand, we need evil players for the good ones to thrive and very much the other way around.

I dont really care how the staff handles it or percieves it, because they can only do so much. It is from the player base that this willingness has to come and its from interactions across alignments that the really intrigueing and worthwhile RP will be had. I can understand why many would cry for more DM attention, but that will only help to divide the server even more in to a setting similar to that which we have with the surface and underdark.

Id like to invite any evil players that want to make interactions with the Halls of Inner Light guild and the faiths represented therein, to contact me. I wont gaurentee that I or we as a guild want to condone every plot you may present, but we will be glad to have interactions that are worthwhile and collaborate to give purpose to a broader selection of players, if only through player driven plots, so be it. But id gladly give it a try and there is so much awesome lore that is just brimming with conflict and intrigues, waiting to be ceased by us.. players.

Ill only request that any Sharrans steer clear of utilizing this option im presenting, since secrecy is your strongest tool, use it OOCly and ICly both. Reap the rewards later, I know who some of the Sharrans are on the server OOCly, but ive also played one in the past and had it entirely ruined for me by metagaming and so id advise you keep your cards close at hand.

But honestly, this topic serves little purpose Steve. The problem as I percieve is not and never was the staff, but like another hot topic touches on, consequenes.. and the fact that others want to impose consequences for their peers and not themselves.

Peace

You may not know, but you have rp'd with one of my evils. We had a nice run for a very short time. We had a nice DM event together as well and that was some of the most fun I have had being evil. But I did pay the consequences of my characters methods. She was killed. I have not and never will be a pvp first evil. Ask any of my rivals. I have been to your temple thing as well. Had some Rp there it was fine and offered the exact thing that I was hoping. I will tell you this. I encounter alot of goodie pvp first players. They attack without the possibility of any kind of rp if it is not genufluxing. I have been to many goodie and even not goodie places and have been shown the door promptly. It's not the rp. Not all my characters are forceful or in any way cartoon evil. I have one that kinda is, but I understand those consequences.

Anyway, this is more about just having attention. It is hard to get anything going alone on the server. And the evils have to take some of the blame as well. It's hard for us to stay motivated to go go go and keep going when it's uphill and lonely. So alot of us try something else. To the team this probably looks like we are fickle and it would be a waste of their time to build anything for us. Some of the evils have plans way to far of the reservation and stubbornly hold onto those ideas. I would imagine this is not anything that they look upon favorably. We evils need to lower our expectations. Be willing to listen and guinea pig for things that a DM may try to do. I'm not saying we evils should give up our desires. Just realize they may not be possible because we are not the only players. Consideration of all is important. Consideration for the future of the server is important. Be open minded. Work TOGETHER. Change the server is not gonna come from one players mind in the middle of the night. It's going to happen from many minds working together for many nights. Many players using their "reasoning" skill. And dms finding creative ways to bring it to life.

[aaron22]

Edited out an accidental double post

[chad878262]

evil or good, we're all players and the sooner as a group we take responsibility for the story telling on our server the sooner more of our desires for those meaningful stories with lasting impacts will be felt. Jonas Rockranon had the largest impact on the server for me and I never even met the guy, much less RP'd with him, other than a 'hey how's it goin' post he made'... However, players still talk about that PC and to me, that is the most lasting effect ANY of us can hope for... Environment changes are dependent upon the availability of area builders, scripters, etc. The memory of PLAYERS and giving them something they WANT to talk to other players about is the most lasting impact any of your characters can have, IMO. Good or Evil this holds true... Eliphas has near the same level of fame (or infamy in his case) as Jonas does, as I have heard his name mentioned IC'ly almost as often. Often enough that it would not surprise me to find that other players think of Eliphas as the most famous PC.

My point is that you can have a lasting impact on other players by great RP and doing things that make those players remember you (for good or ill). In the end maybe you get hung, maybe you die in a glorious DM event, or maybe your PC is retired due to your own schedule requiring you to give the game up, but if you have a player or several players who are still telling stories about you two or more years later I would say you've accomplished something way better than having a change to a map for a few months.

Cranston was my first character and I had many PC's that impacted his RP and changed the way I played him to one extent or another. I won't mention any names here, but I think (and hope) they know who they are and how appreciative I am for there time and efforts over the year and a half or so that I played him.

It's easy to say "evil players won't accept consequences" or "good players are pvp mongers" as it's difficult to prove or disprove such broad generalizations, but it serves no purpose in improving our relationship as fellow players. Far better, I think, to understand that players of good PC's and players of evil PC's share more commonalties than differences. They are all PLAYERS after all, they are people, playing a role they enjoy and want to try to bring to life. Giving each other the benefit of the doubt as opposed to instantly assuming everyone is a powerbuilding cheater would probably be a good start. Sad to say I suffer from this. My limited pvp encounters were about 50/50 in regards to positive outcome where all players were civil vs. dealing with OOC nonsense for weeks/months. So I err on the side of caution and avoid pvp at all costs (mostly by playing sneaks or STR Bards ) I should make an effort to try and give others the benefit of the doubt and not assume that CvC is necessarily going to result in PvP...

Point is a lot of posts point fingers at one group or the other, perhaps unintentionally in some cases. However, at the end of the day I think both comments are accurate. Because there are certainly evil PC's who's players don't accept consequences while shouting that others should...and there are certainly good PC's who's players really play them closer to evil in their PvP baiting/mongering. Thing is I bet that is simply a very vocal/easily seen minority. If everyone gets over it and just looks elsewhere there are tons of really good RPer's on this server and I've never had a situation where reaching out to a player in a friendly/polite/mature matter didn't result in a positive RP experience.

Steve didn't get what he was looking for out of playing evil, no need to look more deeply in to it than that. Good on him for realizing something was causing him undue stress and rather than continuing to walk in to the same wall simply change directions. Doesn't mean that wall exists for other players, but for him it did and there's nothing wrong with him moving elsewhere in his RP with other non-evil characters... Of course all this is moot since this entire topic was an OOC ruse so that none of us would IC suspect his next PC of evil intentions, when in fact he will be the most evil of all...stealing candy from babies, shoving old ladies out of the way, cutting in line for the outhouse, etc. etc.... Watch out for Steve's next 'good' PC because he will be the evilest one yet!!!

[kellendril]

I'm going to post a friendly reminder here. Please please please keep this as civil as it already has been. This has all the hallmarks of a thread we need to watch, but so far, everyone has been good about not attacking or otherwise breaking forum policy. I am here to thank you all for that, and remind you that it would be GREAT if it would continue on this way

[Ithilan]

It would be saying this topic serves a purpose other than ventilating your frustrations over not having a greenlighted plot hook that has consequences for others without their consent.
I read what you wrote, maybe you should give that benefit to others as well.

Why do you even say that, that I'm frustrated over not having my personal plot hook "greenlighted?" A Living Environment that I fail to find that supports Evil RP has little to do with personal plot hooks. It has EVERYTHING to do with having your Evil RP have plots AVAILABLE to it, to react against or with. It is actually not mine I want(ed) to see, and experience manifest, but THEIRS!!!

And considering Theirs does manifest in the many, many Server plots—wide and thin—were playing from a good alignment gives a Player instantaneous position to react against or with, I am saying even louder than "frustration" that I'm happy to let Them do it, manifest that living environment, the one where Good-to-Nuetral alignments, groups/factions/guilds, thrive. I'm actually cheering Them on, to bring the Evil RP from an NPC standpoint!!

But at the very least, my OP served to notify the various Players—and DMs—en masse, that I'm dropping all the Evil RP and shelving the Characters. So how does that NOT serve a purpose, beyond what YOU say?!?

Forgive me, a poor choice of words. I find that the debate that ensued from the service information that the OP was, is pointless as the focus of the debate seemed heavily linked to DM attention. When my point is that we as players have a responsibility and options to create the very enviroments you aspired to find, this takes a measure of good will from both sides and I understand like Chad is saying, we have rotten apples in both camps or perhaps (as id like to belive) some younger players or others that are more self serving in their stance regarding the game and their characters.

That doesnt mean its hopeless, in fact the point of my post was more so to encourage you not to give up. But seek out the players that would like cross alignment interactions set up, no im not talking about trading between Zhents and Harpers. But an example that always stuck with me, is the BG2 quest where you have to steal from the temple of Talos (if playing good at least) a quest of minimal value overall, but the immersion possibilities that lie therein are quite good from my perspective and even if that is the simplest of imaginative RP, its an example and would create some intrigue for both the Shadow Thieves that perhaps stole some priestess necklace, as well as the guild now desperately seeking it. Thats just an example and a minor thing.

Larger plots could of course be worked out, what im reading a lot here is just how people want to destroy X faction, burn down X temple and what not. That is all mighty fine and evil, but its the transparent, obvious and culmination of much work as I see it, start subtly and slowly and expand on it. This is why Cyric is a boring evil and Shar wins on all parameters to me, the level of intrigues and the elaborate plots that are woven in order to achieve what is desired.

Fact is to me, that even good players cant get half their ideas through. So I find it a bit narrow minded if you think this only applies to evil, the larger schemes and grander ambition of course needs backing, like any would. But I think the initiative and the stories that should be created between guilds, factions or just players of opposing alignments and purposes should be player driven first and formost. And without that consent on an OOC level to create fun for all parts, then we are back to square one. Someone mentioned the church of Shar burning down the Selune temple, this is a wonderful idea, I love it.. but you would not need the DMs consent, but the Selunites (and in this case, whole Halls of Inner Light) consent to make this, not just a rain on their parade and some self serving achievement. But a plot that would have risks for all parts involved and numerous possible outcomes dependant on where the RP went.

Id welcome it any day, but I cant give my consent to someone making a Sharran, posting a public character profile with the goal "burn down the temple of Selune" and go and proffess that to all, expecting to pick up a torch and walk through the Gate to scratch that off their list. That to me is juvenile and not serious at all and that is my main complaint with evil, its rather poorly played often just as the smite happy good players are.

There are some examples where extreme prejudice and hatred just shines through, I cant imagine trading words with a Sharran knowingly, or her/him with me as a Selunite without it coming to blows.. but that being said, I always try and avoid PvP so who knows. But I really think this whole issue stems from the community, not the staff and we can adress it, together.

[Steve]

Of course all this is moot since this entire topic was an OOC ruse so that none of us would IC suspect his next PC of evil intentions, when in fact he will be the most evil of all...stealing candy from babies, shoving old ladies out of the way, cutting in line for the outhouse, etc. etc.... Watch out for Steve's next 'good' PC because he will be the evilest one yet!!!

Damn you Chad...damn you!!! Why are there no secrets on BGTSCC?!?!?

[Steve]

Thanks for keeping this going Ithilan, because I understand you better now, and I'd like to respond:

I find that the debate that ensued from the service information that the OP was, is pointless as the focus of the debate seemed heavily linked to DM attention. When my point is that we as players have a responsibility and options to create the very enviroments you aspired to find, this takes a measure of good will from both sides...

I agree: we—good/evil side players—have a responsibility to create, if we want more out of this Server. I can say with all confidence that I have made the effort. Personally, I have not reached a level of return where I can say my bucket has refilled...actually, it just keeps getting emptier and emptier. So, to continue with the metaphor, I hope to refill that bucket by focusing on Goodly-minded Characters, and reap the instant benefit of reacting with and against what the DMs are presenting with their Evil-minded NPCs and storylines.

That doesnt mean its hopeless, in fact the point of my post was more so to encourage you not to give up.

I never said it was hopeless, though it may have come across that way through mine and others use of words. I actually said in the OP that I very much appreciate those Players who are willing to continue with player-driven Evil RP, because it is really, really hard and tiring, and if anything, I hopefully am more sensitive to their aims, and from the good aligned PC side of things, I can actually help them more!!!

Fact is to me, that even good players cant get half their ideas through.

You must have lots of experience in and to bring to BGTSCC, so if this is a fact to you, and it is a blatant fact, conversely to Evil PCs players, then this fact shows there is something wrong with the System. What are the options to make the overall "ways and means" of player-driven RP to get further along in the Server? I'm very interested to hear your ideas. But, I want to preempt you by saying, if the main answer is long term, daily and many hours investment, that is only available to the smallest of sections of the Community, and if the equally engaged Playerbase that simply has less RL time to invest—and not by choice, but by RL—then essentially, they would be SOL for seeing their ideas manifest, and I'd say, that "Fact" might very well turn them away form the Server, entirely (out of frustration, or any number of other reasons). I don't want to see the Server lose players because of this.

But I really think this whole issue stems from the community, not the staff and we can adress it, together.

The Staff is part of the Community. Actually, many of the more engaged Players are or become DMs—which is standard recruiting practice—thus, there are intricate Rules and Regulations that might be getting in the way for support, from both sides, actually.

In my opinion, there will always be Player/Staff frustration. Why? Because of the way the system is setup: players want, DMs (supposedly) give. DMs don't have time or interest to give, Players become frustrated. Players say/do something irritation, DMs step farther back. And on and on it goes.

Now usually, in a classic D&D session, the DM is presenting a living environment that the Players have OOC agreed to join into. They WANT to see what the DM is giving them. The DM is also giving them particular attention. Which feels good, and, makes the Players "show up" to add and support what the DM is giving them. Again, the classic setup.

But on BGTSCC, we do it different: Players are actually encouraged to "start up things," and generate the RP for effects upon the environment, but then, it comes a point where you as the Player and the PC have reached the end mark before it is REQUIRED that a DM step in and make the environment "live." But if the DMs don't have interest? Or don't have time? Or are already irritated by the Player?!?

You hopefully see what I mean: it falls apart. The experience, the game, the community.

So, my attitude has changed to this: stop trying to do what isn't working for me and for the DMs AND for a number of Players, and just take the position that is ALREADY in the best slot for experiencing what the DMs are cooking up, what they are giving! And, if they have nothing, that's fine. I can still better enact my own Role-play in the status quo environment, because as it has been said many times before, the Evil Forces create reason for the Good forces to exist. Antagonist/Protagonist. The DMs have the tools and decision power to really manifest this, and the Players are simply better suited to react to it, with glorious and creative RP.

As a side and ending note: this does not mean Players shall not play Evil aligned Characters. They can, and many very evil RL people are active inside what we'd consider lawful, neutral or good groups and institutions. Actually, alignment doesn't really apply to RL, as the morality is much more fluid in RL, but in D&D, it has been "organized" better because we are acting out/RPing a Character, not a RL person. Again, trying to develop player-driven Evil RP as if I was a DM and had that power, has simply become silly and a bit stupid for me to continue on. At least...for now.

[DM Pun Pun]

Most "evil" PCs think the only way to be evil is to have other players suffer their wrath in PvP.

Most "good" PCs think the only way to be "good" is to hunt these "evil" PCs down in PvP.


The few successful of these PCs learn that this doesn't really do much for the development of their PC and find alternative, meaningful paths to glory/villainy.

[Akroma666]

Most "evil" PCs think the only way to be evil is to have other players suffer their wrath in PvP.

Most "good" PCs think the only way to be "good" is to hunt these "evil" PCs down in PvP.


The few successful of these PCs learn that this doesn't really do much for the development of their PC and find alternative, meaningful paths to glory/villainy.

Punpun I'm curious what other avenues are open to us? I've tried to start an evil PC guild.. DMs ignored it. I've tried to make bombs out of stone bricks for the rebuilding of baldurs gate, i was told no. I mean.. of all the plot hooks offered, it seems at every turn I am squashed and told no or never get an answer. Even now I'm waiting for an answer to something i started in November. At what point will DM staff take responsibility for this and actually let evil try something and then in turn, give good a chance to smash it?

I honestly don't think this is a player problem.. we have great players with open guilds offering great content and story, shoot look at karzlite and the auril guild.. pumping out content.

Now i know first hand i PMed DM staff for a PC run event with DM oversight two weeks in advance and litterally had to scramble with PMs to try and get a DM on last minute because again, no one responded. I think at that point PvP is our only option left.. and why not?! It's fun and keeps you on the edge of your seat if your not killing someone 15 levels below you. It's the grief after that people complain about.. let it go!

The lack of response is what kills evil in my experience. I understand being told no, but try offering another suggestion maybe? Or how we can get approval.. but at least a no is a response. I realize I'm probably ruining my own DM chances, but something needs to change on DM side. There's a reason evil dies out, gets bored, or just moves on while good still gets guild events , buildings, and world changing progress. I challenge any of you to name an event in the last 6 months that was of significant evil that changed the server as we know it.

[aaron22]

Most "evil" PCs think the only way to be evil is to have other players suffer their wrath in PvP.

Most "good" PCs think the only way to be "good" is to hunt these "evil" PCs down in PvP.


The few successful of these PCs learn that this doesn't really do much for the development of their PC and find alternative, meaningful paths to glory/villainy.

this scenario has taken place twice (maybe more, but only recall) with my PCs.... DM asks "what does Evilguy want to have happen." my response, "to see the world burn and create a state of suffering that Evilgod's fury will be sated by this." i am paraphrasing, but the question should have been what do I (the player) want to see happen for evilguy. because the player does not wish for that. that is what my character would want. i want to have an enriching experience that moves my character along a path. a path doing evil. i do not need to make players suffer.

while i understand DM Pun Pun said "most" i have OOC conversations with many evil players and most do not want this. of course, the ones that do are the ones that get looked at. if anything, i feel that evil players want too much in the ways of dramatic overhaul of all that is current.

i do appreciate the DM's speaking up on this and would love to hear more about what us (evil players) are doing to make working with us difficult.

maybe it is equal and we evils are not appreciative of what we have. that is a possibility too.