Going to Leave the Evil to the DMs

[Steve]

This statement should be read through the context of playing on the Surface, where I mainly play. But I've thought it over for some time now, and the statement is this:

I'm going to leave the Evil to the DMs.

I just had to state that publicly, because of the many Players I either currently have Evil RP connections with, or those that I have been attempting to build them with, and/or the DMs that have made effort to provide avenues for developing player-driven Evil RP...and I want none of that/those efforts to not go unappreciated—they were, and they are!

But it makes no more sense, to me, to continue pursuing Evil RP, as a Player. I am just going to give these few simple reasons, and though I do not expect anyone to uphold them with value as I do, maybe some do, and that will give reason to dropping all the RP so unexpectedly (and changing the paradigm for how I interact via my Characters on this Server):

- It is poor Evil RP when you cannot inspire Fear in any PC/NPC. Because Evil PCs cannot kill either PCs or NPCs, nor do their Gods seem to manifest upon the environment in ways that inspire Fear, and to mention the OOC knowledge of Characters never dying/failing unless the Players "agree" to it, the Real Fear that is NEEDED in order to provide deep, engaging, empowered Evil RP, is lacking.

- Too few Evil RP environments (on the Surface). What is lacking here Steve, you ask? I can imagine being Evil in Darkhold, imagine being Evil in Roaringshore, imagine being Evil in Soubar (and the North), but were is the Living Environment that allows for Evil-minded activities to manifest? I, personally at least, cannot find any Calls to Events for Evil-minded PCs. Personally, I cannot find either DM-driven plots or Player-driven plots to participate in...and the environment that seems alive to pursue these. Granted, I've burned a number of bridges OOC with some Players that are the hard-core block of Evil PC Players, so truth-be-told, it may simply be my own fault is to why the Environment for Evil RP does not manifest, on BGTSCC, for me. Which in and of itself, supports my dropping Evil RP.

- Evil RP and Adventuring seems to be...perpendicular. My biggest interest in D&D on BGTSCC is where one can have a balanced experience of Social-Political RP combined with Adventure RP. As I have experienced it in the last year, the former is very rare, and often descends into bickering and finally OOC crap (and I am ashamed to admit that I also push away people OOC...sorry). Or, the social aspect of RPing that you want to loot, murder and/or subjugate the populous six ways to Sunday around a coffee table, just seems so...vacuous. I SERIOUSLY THINK THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN ON BGTSCC!!! It is a form of circle jerk, I find. I"m not into that.

As for the latter, as a friend said to me yesterday: "And when you get these 3 PCs it's 3 lines of RP at best in the beginning, then it's running around in circles." I simply want more than this, and I simply can't find this with Evil minded PCs. I admit it is quite possibly my own shortcomings, that I myself am a crap Evil RP player, and thus, again, it supports my unexpected dropping of all things Evil RP.

All that said, I so do appreciate those that maintain, and will maintain, an Evil PC, and continue to further the guilds/factions/individuals that are always "trying to make things happen," in order that the Good Guys have more to do than a Paladin Dance Party on Thursday night. All I can say is: you've now got a protagonist to try and destroy!!!

Cheers.

[chad878262]

Interesting read, Steve. I have a different take on it, but many of your points are valid. I would say the specific TYPE of evil you are talking about yes, is difficult without a lot of OOC coordination with other players, making it feel much more like a play than the improvisational type of interaction that makes role playing such fun. However, playing a Neutral Evil Mercenary or Rogue who's only out for themselves, conning others out of gold or to travel where they want to go is a decent Neutral Evil. It's not the 'burning down churches' evil and perhaps not scary, but evil has many forms and all that. Same thing with Lawful Evil using existing laws of the land to make something bad happen for personal gain, or understanding exactly where the law stops and turning on a companion at an inopportune time. In a land where evil is a real force in opposition to good I can definitely see your point with regard to trying to be the big bad evil guy type as a group we players really RP fears poorly (if at all) and a large part of it has to do with, as you said the lack of real penalties for dying.

[Ariella]

See i have a very different opinion on a lot of this but the one point i want to actually comment on is the fear. That's not an evil issue it effects both sides, The difference being on team good its people lacking the fear of being caught. The necromancer summoning in front of the guards, The demon walking up the trade way, The blood mage using his bloodseeker. The best part about it is, If you ignore it your not playing the character sheet and it becomes an IC issue to the integrity of your character, But if you do something about it you have to pvp and kill them. Because turning someone over to the guards has become meaningless unless its in the city.

[Steve]

i want to actually comment on is the fear. That's not an evil issue it effects both sides,

True, it does. Though the difference of importance is Evil aspires to create Fear, while good aspired to sooth Fear (the fearful).

If even inspiring Fear be playing Evil is impossible, then why try, right? That is at least where I've ended up. If others find success in this, bravo.

And, the DMs are the only ones that control the Gods and the greater Evil powers which can actually manifest on BGTSCC, so why try to do that when you don't even have the tools!

[Ariella]

Well its also important to remember there is some pretty cheap ways to counter fear in PC's, Just Greater Heroism does it. My recommendation would be to focus on NPCs but truth be told the only evil i play is sneaky, So i try to avoid anyone knowing enough to fear.

[chad878262]

Well its also important to remember there is some pretty cheap ways to counter fear in PC's, Just Greater Heroism does it. My recommendation would be to focus on NPCs but truth be told the only evil i play is sneaky, So i try to avoid anyone knowing enough to fear.

There is a difference (IMO, I have no source to back this up) between magical fear, regular fear and being able to control said fear. A paladin's immunity to fear or a 20th level monks immunity to mind effects does not mean they are stupid. Faced with a Ancient Red Wyrm they are going to be afraid, but they do not succumb to that fear, they've mastered it. You can RP fear while having Greater Heroism, Mind Blank, Protection from Evil or whatever else up. It doesn't mean your PC can't be fearful of a situation, just that they have a bonus to the save or are immune to succumbing to fear effects (in some case magical fear, in others complete immunity to fear effect...In either case it would be silly to think that anyone would be fully immune to being afraid). Again, just my opinion, perhaps there is some D&D source book where they outline how a PC is completely immune to feeling fear at all (though I would think that would come with a penalty to Wisdom....Fear keeps most of us from doing some really stupid things, afterall).

[Ariella]

Well actually a Paladin's fear immunity covers magical and mundane they become unable to experience the emotion and this is arguably one of the main reasons they die young. To the comment of stupid things there is Paladin's charging into hell to do battle with fiends so.. Players handbook is the source. Greater Heroism does not state it includes mundane fear so that's kinda up to the DM and Rper i suppose.

Also just on the evil avatar's forming, I have actually seen shar form three times and Bane once on my time in BG. I will admit i have had a lot more response from goods gods but i have led a good temple at least twice as long as i did evil.

[aaron22]

i have had the opportunity to have Evil RP with steve and i KNOW much about what he speaks on. the fear aspect is essentially what many of the evil PC's goals are to inspire. there is quite a number that have different approaches to evil, but inspiring fear seems to be consistent among many of us.

a year ago, when i first started playing this game, I did not know anyone here. did not know how to RP. did not have a large grasp of the lore that surrounded this setting. I did not even know how to make a character or where to go to get anything. but as i grew in the setting and i started learning the ropes, there were a couple of PC's that made a distinct impact on me from the evil side of RP. one was Kagger and the other was Lyrae and the drow invaders. they inspired fear in me and my characters. these PC's made an impact on my early BGtSCC development and have confirmed to me that it IS possible to inspire fear. at it's height, along with devlin, these two were the topic of almost all the conversations.

with that said, this is what evil fear mongers should aspire to. in my short life on this server (the only server i have ever played), they are to me the gold standard to which some of my characters attempt (feebly) to become.

i explore several different types of evil in my PC's. i have a couple that an end state is to bring fear. it is challenging and tedious, but if that end comes to fruition, it would all be worth it. not just for me, but for the server as a whole as seen from the effect from Kagger and Lyrae did.

[Steve]

My recommendation would be to focus on NPCs ...

Agreed, but I simply can't find them, or place the PC in their path for them to find my Characters.

...playing a Neutral Evil Mercenary or Rogue who's only out for themselves...

Of course, this is a very valid type of Character that can go far on BGTSCC. But how is this actually different to playing a Good Character?!? I jest, but I am also serious—if you can only be as Evil as those that are Good can be Evil (think about it....), then being Evil becomes either far too circumstantial, or, completely railroaded into a place. You write about improvisation, and I agree, that is the most interesting play in role-play: allowing your Character to come to situations in which they can fully realize themselves, at that moment. I simply do not find those moments with my Evil Characters, nor, and I admit my own failure here, can create them.

... it IS possible to inspire fear.

Granted, if you are with others that RP on the same level of interest, and place similar values to the intensity of RP you are giving/receiving, then I imagine "a fear" presents itself. Just to be clear: I am not talking about a Fear the Player experiences, but The Fear that engages/manipulates/empowers/challenges our Characters, AND the environment they live in.

Let me just give one simple example: if your PC has traveled through Hell (avernus) and back, what really is there left to fear in life? You might argue that, well, anything the Player decides to let the Character fear, actually. But I do not see that if a few PCs overcome the Hellz, why in the world they would fear the PCs of the Thayan Enclave, or the Dreadlord + Elites of Darkhold, or even the Church of Shar, or even a Drow on the Surface.

Fear is both something innate, and something that appears when there is something to lose. Be it life, liberty or relations. Okay..there is more to Fear but throw this old dog a bone.

I'm only saying that with the DMs being the sole arbiters of Life and Death, in that only THEY can assign a PermaDeath, and only after 3 of those is your Character truly dead dead dead, AND that you can never lose your Inventory unless you yourself give up that item, or you can never lose your Guild Hall, or you can never lose IG, IC friends of family because PCs never die—and even NPCs never die, unless they ARE the Evil Boss...all this to try and make happen from the Player side, lacks a point for me. And simply put, I no longer get off on trying (which is something I'm just saying out loud, since many have been involved in the efforts over the years).

Honestly, I'm not saying the Good Guys have it any better, except, they have a better sandbox. Or at least, by doing nothing, they can appreciate the Status Quo on 95% of the Server. Evil are not about keeping the Status Quo, so if one, as a Player, cannot change the Status Quo without an immense amount of jumping hoops and dead end brick wall head bashes, then simply put: stop trying!

So I did. Cheers.

[mrm3ntalist]

I think this post needs some clarification.

It is not the Evil RP as a whole but the CvC side of things.

For example some events i took part in:
- Doron Amar: Searching for a portal of Lythar(?)
- EDE: The Miyeritar tomes, The Exodus, Searching for a home, Sovontar
- OSR: The Sventar
- Kraak Helzak: The Ironfaar plot, The lost spears etc
- Elder Circle: The Purge
- School of Necromancy: Part in Bloodlust's plots
- The Harpers: NO PLOTS
etc

What all these plots have in common is that they have nothing to do with CvC. The Harpers for example which is a very CvC oriented guild, had 0 such plots. I think that Evil plots can happen as easily as good ones.

CvC is another matter though, both for good and evil. It is more difficult to happen. So unless i am mistaken, it is not the difficulty in Evil RP that discourages but the CvC side.

[aaron22]

i completely understand and support you steve, i hope the good side fairs better for you. losing an evil RPer is not something i desire, but it happens.

all these fear immunities that are being described are silly and too simplistic for a primal instinct. one cannot be devoid of fear without a really problematic mental disorder or injury to be the cause. fear is a base emotion and is the factor behind nearly all emotional connections. while i would not want to submerge this into a philosophical debate on emotion, i would stress that in all regard-able theories of emotion that i am aware of, if one were to remove the fear emotion. all other emotions would suffer huge drawbacks. it makes much more sense that these spells and abilities damper severe negative effects that can be caused by fear. fear immunity is silly. the person with such an immunity would be mentally challenged. they would not be able to maintain any kind of relationship with anyone else. if there were a large percent of people walking around with such, it would be an asylum. imagine a world filled with a number of people that had frontal lobotomies performed in a manner similar to those of the 40's and 50's. that is fear immunity. when i rp in this setting i have never encountered anyone RPing this way. without fear, there would not be ANY need to kill that dragon or save that damsel in distress. so if a player is not RPing fear, they are not RPing well at all. there is a difference between being unable to fear and being able to move past the negative effects that fear causes, even when most people cannot.

[Calodan]

I think this post needs some clarification.

It is not the Evil RP as a whole but the CvC side of things.

For example some events i took part in:
- Doron Amar: Searching for a portal of Lythar(?)
- EDE: The Miyeritar tomes, The Exodus, Searching for a home, Sovontar
- OSR: The Sventar
- Kraak Helzak: The Ironfaar plot, The lost spears etc
- Elder Circle: The Purge
- School of Necromancy: Part in Bloodlust's plots
- The Harpers: NO PLOTS
etc

What all these plots have in common is that they have nothing to do with CvC. The Harpers for example which is a very CvC oriented guild, had 0 such plots. I think that Evil plots can happen as easily as good ones.

CvC is another matter though, both for good and evil. It is more difficult to happen. So unless i am mistaken, it is not the difficulty in Evil RP that discourages but the CvC side.

I would say you hit the nail on the head and drove it home in one shot here. In my limited experience with Evil CvC it never quite goes right. Whether you are the Evil or the Good PC. It just does not go right. I find that one side has to be very very lenient and open to what is going to happen. There are the occasional DM run events (BIG SHOUT OUT TO WAGNER HERE AND THE PLAYER OF ISRAE AND DELOR? Not sure if it was Delor with her) where it goes great. Both sides handle it well and respect each other. However the odds of this are very low especially when it is targeted CvC it gets even more choppy for each side. Just my opinion on this. It in no way means I am right or even on target with it.

[Steve]

CvC is another matter though, both for good and evil. It is more difficult to happen. So unless i am mistaken, it is not the difficulty in Evil RP that discourages but the CvC side.

You are not mistaken, M3nt, just addressing a particular context. In general, I agree with you: CvC in any context of Evil vs. Good relies upon both sides to take a seriousness and practical approach, and that includes consequences and rewards (though, I'd argue, THOSE need to be DM managed).

When I am here speaking about Evil RP, it is by playing an Evil minded PC that is wanting to manifest himself, in the environment. How can an Evil PC do that without essentially emulating how a Good PC does it? Do you understand? To be clear: avenues of manifesting Evil RP from player driven position fail, immensely, when you compare it to what DMs can accomplish.

So, with DMs having the Tools, the Power and the position to manifest Evil in this Sword Coast environment, why not let them be focusing on that, where I, as the Player, focus on playing the opposite role? No muss, no fuss!

Because, if I read you right, you pointed out clearly that if you are within a Good Side Group (DA, EDE, OSR, KH, EC, etc.), you take immediate position and RP against the Evil manifestation, presented by a DM.

For an Evil PC, that needs the same, but opposite, attention. Like I alluded to, the UD may very well have that presented there, but I do not play in the UD much (just my Svirf, who is a Neutral Druid).

My point is not to complain, against Players or DMs here, just to point out I've lost hope and see only failure, and least, less fun in RPing on BGTSCC than if you play a Neutral or Good PC, associated with N/G factions or guilds. So that is what I'm going for, now. And I wanted to let all those I've been working with to manifest Evil RP that I'm gone baby gone.

[JCVD1]

Evil.

This... Alternate sense of morality.


Being a recognized, feared, respected and/or hated figure takes a lot of time, effort and luck.

I cannot say for certain that I have achieved such but it sure came to a great cost.

To be seen as an evil dude, it's simple. Do something bad and there you have it. But to make yourself seen like a bad mofo, you need to do horrible things and get away with it, and still walk around freely.

But then what?

Nothing.

Rp becomes scarce because most of the server is good or neutral. They tend to tag along with goodies and neutral people. Especially when you have a clear tag like "Red Wizard".

DM events are innexistant, unless you tag along with goodies to save the princess.

Your evil factions crave attention while new ones gets it all. It's not the players' fault. The DM culture is friends and like minded people voting for friends and like-minded people into the DM team, which are more than often poeple who played good aligned character and are uncomfortable with evil RP.

You then complain and argue with the DMs, turning you into a "problem" player because you point out the obvious, sometimes seasoned with a bit of impatience. Then its impossible to join the DM team.

Then you realize that... you've been doing your best to be a good Evil player, with a deep meaningful backstory to your character for over 3-4 years and all you get is OOC resentment and being ignored.

People are not fearful that the Zhentarim have access to Baldur's Gate again. They are pissed ooc that evil got half of their way. AND THAT is the culture of this server.

[aaron22]

I think this post needs some clarification.

It is not the Evil RP as a whole but the CvC side of things.

For example some events i took part in:
- Doron Amar: Searching for a portal of Lythar(?)
- EDE: The Miyeritar tomes, The Exodus, Searching for a home, Sovontar
- OSR: The Sventar
- Kraak Helzak: The Ironfaar plot, The lost spears etc
- Elder Circle: The Purge
- School of Necromancy: Part in Bloodlust's plots
- The Harpers: NO PLOTS
etc

What all these plots have in common is that they have nothing to do with CvC. The Harpers for example which is a very CvC oriented guild, had 0 such plots. I think that Evil plots can happen as easily as good ones.

CvC is another matter though, both for good and evil. It is more difficult to happen. So unless i am mistaken, it is not the difficulty in Evil RP that discourages but the CvC side.

I would say you hit the nail on the head and drove it home in one shot here. In my limited experience with Evil CvC it never quite goes right. Whether you are the Evil or the Good PC. It just does not go right. I find that one side has to be very very lenient and open to what is going to happen. There are the occasional DM run events (BIG SHOUT OUT TO WAGNER HERE AND THE PLAYER OF ISRAE AND DELOR? Not sure if it was Delor with her) where it goes great. Both sides handle it well and respect each other. However the odds of this are very low especially when it is targeted CvC it gets even more choppy for each side. Just my opinion on this. It in no way means I am right or even on target with it.

this is very true. CvC evil vs good is too hard for the GP as a whole to be reasonable with. less is more is way better in a lot of ways. building a rapport ooc so that both have a solid understanding of the means and ends is paramount. doing things in forum RP with both sides being in agreement.

but good vs evil doesnt have to be PvP and is often times better that it is not. it leaves the unknown still that... unknown. CvC can have many forms, from one is building the other is destroying etc etc. i do not oppose PvP, i usually stray away from it because of OOC feedback. in PvP, i treat the players with respect and expect the same with sad disappointment.

it is hard being evil. bottom line.. what evil wants to have accomplished on the server can never be. it cant be, because people will complain. and people are what make up the server and make it run. the majority of players feel comfort with the DM's running evil because the hero always wins and they know it. as an evil PC, i just look for that brief moment when the good guys feel real concern. because when it's CvC and/or PvP, the hero may not win just because. its fleeting and temporary, but the small moment is worth it.