+1The Whistler wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:59 amNail, head. I have a huge nerf thread fatigue from topics usually started by people who aren't very good at game mechanics or who are having a knee jerk reaction to something they recently saw happen in game that completely blew their mind. The thing is that most of the stuff people have been recently complaining about has been a staple of the server for many years with no incident and is only now coming to the forefront because of the 100% RCR period. It is really telling of the state of this game when people are no longer even pretending to be on a roleplaying server or when scripters are treated as infallible and given carte blanche to enact whatever class change they desire when they've reduced the server code to a jumbled mess that makes people crash all the time.
Nerf (Hellfire) Warlock
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- athornforyourheart
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Re: Nerf Warlock
Re: Nerf Warlock
It's important to remember that this thread wasn't even started by a staff member, and while some people from staff have given their opinions about it, you cannot come here and say "Oh server has no direction it's all nerfs nerfs nerfs" when there was just 3 classes buffed recently (Paladin, sorcerer, and recently druid/monk), fixing MotlD doesn't count as a nerf but rather a bug fix.
It's strange to me that you think someone wants to nerf something because they are bad at the game, not everyone has the time to invest on the mechanics and quirks of such a game, especially because that time investment won't translate to anything on the long run, we are all here to enjoy the game and are free to make any suggestions we think may make the server better.
No nerfs has ever been made any class unplayable, Divine Power for example isn't as good as it is in Vanilla yet still favored soul is a very powerful class still.
Let us focus on constructive criticism and real suggestions, we all know NWN2 has been a broken game for years and many of those things cannot be fixed, the game is what it is and there's no promise of anything because we all know what we're dealing with here.
It's strange to me that you think someone wants to nerf something because they are bad at the game, not everyone has the time to invest on the mechanics and quirks of such a game, especially because that time investment won't translate to anything on the long run, we are all here to enjoy the game and are free to make any suggestions we think may make the server better.
No nerfs has ever been made any class unplayable, Divine Power for example isn't as good as it is in Vanilla yet still favored soul is a very powerful class still.
Let us focus on constructive criticism and real suggestions, we all know NWN2 has been a broken game for years and many of those things cannot be fixed, the game is what it is and there's no promise of anything because we all know what we're dealing with here.
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Re: Nerf Warlock
You can customize AI in the game without rewriting half the game. You just need to be good at C# and not make it too convoluted where it would lag the server.EasternCheesE wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:51 pmWell, fixing AI would require a very skilled dev in this particular field and then rewriting half of game cause most of this stuff is blackboxed.c2k wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:17 pmLike the game's AI. Make the AI keep up with the Joneses.mrm3ntalist wrote: ↑Mon Jul 05, 2021 12:25 pm It is not actually. It expresses an opinion using sarcasm, that instead of focusing so much on nerfs, focus to improve any classes that needs it and QoL changes. Especially focus on fixing things that have been broken for years.![]()
With rewriting core blackboxed mechanics, it's just easier to make Bgtscc on Unreal engine or whatever![]()
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Re: Nerf Warlock
Good idea. But also this: All the haterz...you're not required to game here! Argue the points, but quit grinding on the people actually making an effort.
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Re: Nerf Warlock
Since you asked if it's too much or not and why, without asking in your suggestion as a public thread for feed backA Hateful Drow wrote: ↑Sat Jun 26, 2021 6:33 am Warlocks and specially constitution warlocks are too strong. They haver permanent 50% concealment as well as they do have a lot of burst damage non suspectible to SR that increases in a 50% with Eldritch Master.
If you add hellfire warlock you just need to buy a wand of restoration and you have now no problem at all. Concealment, invisibility, restoration, so you get extra damage with no cost.
Warlock is someone who's pacted with demons, devils, major or minor, but has a source of magic. Sorcerers and Favored Souls do have it too but they still require charisma to cast spells while warlock requires nothing. I think that lvl 4 invocations should require the properly 14 charisma
I do think that 50% permanent concealment is a lot since you can also make yourself invisible. It's like greater invisibility, but permanent.
Restoration shouldn't restore warlocks constitution drop. They should maybe require at least restoration, greater.
Considering that persist spells on the meta magic line are gone. Just weight with the other changes prior and other stuff at hand.
It may be to much for the design philosophy it attempted at the time such changes where made to meta magic for other casters.
On the other side, can acknowledge that with your example from warlock it's just one persistent effect to do one job. Much like the GFK changes that by level 10 you get a persistent true sight.
So it's just one of those things that ai feel I will need to give it more thought on. But these are my thoughts so far.
After years of trying to give others a chance to prove to me they can shape up here, I have run out of patience. The numbers of nwn2 overall dropping in the past few years have told me the path others truly want to take. Actions speak louder than words.
It's not worth the investment.
It's not worth the investment.
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Re: Nerf Warlock
I've been reading through this thread without comment so far, because I don't play a warlock. This post will not be about warlocks specifically but about the whether/when we should nerf things.
First of all, PvP will never, ever be balanced. Some have said that we should not try to balance around PvP, and I agree wholeheartedly. The game was not meant to be a PvP platform, and to try to make it such is a futile effort.
Secondly, the game was not meant to be "balanced" in the first place. Even for PvE. However, being in a Persistent World and having a massive (relative to the setting) playerbase, we are NOT living in a pure Forgotten Realms setting. So we have to decide how we wish to balance things out.
If we truly wish to "balance" things, whoever can make the call needs to look at the PvE content, and decide how powerful each area is supposed to be, and what it is supposed to take to clear the area. And then balance around that. I am NOT suggesting this, but using this as an example:
Let's say the Balor is supposed to require 3+ people to defeat it. If someone solos it, that class/build/feats should get looked at and nerfed. If two people beat it, their combination should get looked at and nerfed. But then if three capable players fail to beat it despite being good with mechanics, their classes should be looked at, and balanced upward.
That is the only way to achieve true balance of classes on the server. However, when we try to achieve balance too much, then we become an MMO. "Each class must be equally viable for all things". And that's just not how this setting is meant to be. We are meant to have imbalances.
If a wizard sees a fighter coming, the fighter should lose. If the wizard doesn't see a rogue coming, the wizard should lose. If the fighter sees the rogue coming, the rogue should lose. And if the fighter does not see the rogue coming, the fighter should lose. The fights are meant to be balanced in their imbalances, not be equal footing toe to toe.
Now, I'm not saying there is never anything that needs to be nerfed. But what I am saying is that if we foster a "nerf culture", we will degrade ourselves into what World of Warcraft became. Where every class felt identical (which is why I left it after being a raider for 10+ years). "Ok, hit your DoT, make sure this debuff is up at all times, and spam this button." I really don't want that to happen here. And honestly, I'd rather err on the side of somethings being OP rather than to have a balance which cancels out flavor.
First of all, PvP will never, ever be balanced. Some have said that we should not try to balance around PvP, and I agree wholeheartedly. The game was not meant to be a PvP platform, and to try to make it such is a futile effort.
Secondly, the game was not meant to be "balanced" in the first place. Even for PvE. However, being in a Persistent World and having a massive (relative to the setting) playerbase, we are NOT living in a pure Forgotten Realms setting. So we have to decide how we wish to balance things out.
If we truly wish to "balance" things, whoever can make the call needs to look at the PvE content, and decide how powerful each area is supposed to be, and what it is supposed to take to clear the area. And then balance around that. I am NOT suggesting this, but using this as an example:
Let's say the Balor is supposed to require 3+ people to defeat it. If someone solos it, that class/build/feats should get looked at and nerfed. If two people beat it, their combination should get looked at and nerfed. But then if three capable players fail to beat it despite being good with mechanics, their classes should be looked at, and balanced upward.
That is the only way to achieve true balance of classes on the server. However, when we try to achieve balance too much, then we become an MMO. "Each class must be equally viable for all things". And that's just not how this setting is meant to be. We are meant to have imbalances.
If a wizard sees a fighter coming, the fighter should lose. If the wizard doesn't see a rogue coming, the wizard should lose. If the fighter sees the rogue coming, the rogue should lose. And if the fighter does not see the rogue coming, the fighter should lose. The fights are meant to be balanced in their imbalances, not be equal footing toe to toe.
Now, I'm not saying there is never anything that needs to be nerfed. But what I am saying is that if we foster a "nerf culture", we will degrade ourselves into what World of Warcraft became. Where every class felt identical (which is why I left it after being a raider for 10+ years). "Ok, hit your DoT, make sure this debuff is up at all times, and spam this button." I really don't want that to happen here. And honestly, I'd rather err on the side of somethings being OP rather than to have a balance which cancels out flavor.
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- Azroth
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Re: Nerf Warlock
There is also the factor that the server clearly does not cater to being balanced even remotely around PvP. I do understand where others come from, and might be neat in some, I just don't think that in general the server itself is or even was made to be like that, design-wise.JustAnotherGuy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:45 pm I've been reading through this thread without comment so far, because I don't play a warlock. This post will not be about warlocks specifically but about the whether/when we should nerf things.
First of all, PvP will never, ever be balanced. Some have said that we should not try to balance around PvP, and I agree wholeheartedly. The game was not meant to be a PvP platform, and to try to make it such is a futile effort.
Secondly, the game was not meant to be "balanced" in the first place. Even for PvE. However, being in a Persistent World and having a massive (relative to the setting) playerbase, we are NOT living in a pure Forgotten Realms setting. So we have to decide how we wish to balance things out.
If we truly wish to "balance" things, whoever can make the call needs to look at the PvE content, and decide how powerful each area is supposed to be, and what it is supposed to take to clear the area. And then balance around that. I am NOT suggesting this, but using this as an example:
After years of trying to give others a chance to prove to me they can shape up here, I have run out of patience. The numbers of nwn2 overall dropping in the past few years have told me the path others truly want to take. Actions speak louder than words.
It's not worth the investment.
It's not worth the investment.
- cosmic ray
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Re: Nerf Warlock
Yes, perhaps it is, from a certain point of view, but it is also a facetious (gasp!! No jokes allowed without a formal application) expression of frustration by a weary player who, after a few years playing here, knows better than to dignify the posts made by the passengers on the Nerftown express with much more than that. Speaking of which, Mentalist and Whistler put it much better than I could have hoped to. They got it 100% right with these objectively constructive posts:Rad-Icarus wrote: ↑Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:11 pmcosmic ray wrote: ↑Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:00 am Instead of making bad classes good, we should make all good classes bad. Only when everything is totally unplayable will we all achieve our perfect forms as roleplayers.
This is reductive and unhelpful.
Heeding their words would, in fact, be extremely helpful. It would have avoided all the hassle of having to delete areas years ago and the new hassle of the server split now, which can't have been easy on the people working on it.The Whistler wrote: ↑Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:59 amNail, head. I have a huge nerf thread fatigue from topics usually started by people who aren't very good at game mechanics or who are having a knee jerk reaction to something they recently saw happen in game that completely blew their mind. The thing is that most of the stuff people have been recently complaining about has been a staple of the server for many years with no incident and is only now coming to the forefront because of the 100% RCR period. It is really telling of the state of this game when people are no longer even pretending to be on a roleplaying server or when scripters are treated as infallible and given carte blanche to enact whatever class change they desire when they've reduced the server code to a jumbled mess that makes people crash all the time.
Regarding the suggestions to nerf warlock, I think they are absurdly disproportionate nerfs that might make the class worse than it was as originally introduced when the game was released in 2006. I don't really play warlocks, so I almost forgot that the bug that keeps warlocks from having a chance to bypass SR hasn't been fixed yet, and many dragons have acid immunity, but I don't see people being one tenth this passionate asking for bug fixes to broken classes and abilities. It's always nerf, nerf, nerf, and always of things they themselves don't play, and usually after losing to pvp or being mind blown by seeing that other people can make good builds too. Here's a dare: start asking for nerfs of your favourite classes; at least then there would be a chance you would know what you were talking about, right?
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Re: Nerf Warlock
I’ve played a Warlock as a main for the last 2 years. I’ve been questioning an petitioning for nerfs, fixes, improvements, etc. on multiple topics from Classes to Feats to mobs to basic design and philosophy of the Server, for YEARS. Issues have been around forever, yet that isn’t an excuse for making a change (eventually, and where warranted).
The only truth here is that most everything is opinion based. Yours, mine, M3nt’s, Rhifox’s, the (head) DMs, the Admins. Things “change” when and only when the current control groups opinion align.
So besides the truth in opinion, there is additionally then the fact that everything is in flux, as history of said changes shows us. That is both good and bad, for those that want to be against the change.
But all it really means is that X’s opinion isn’t being followed, NOT that it isn’t heard (for we all need recognition, right, else we wouldn’t even be typing).
The trick here is twofold: don’t get personal, and especially, don’t take it personally!!
The only truth here is that most everything is opinion based. Yours, mine, M3nt’s, Rhifox’s, the (head) DMs, the Admins. Things “change” when and only when the current control groups opinion align.
So besides the truth in opinion, there is additionally then the fact that everything is in flux, as history of said changes shows us. That is both good and bad, for those that want to be against the change.
But all it really means is that X’s opinion isn’t being followed, NOT that it isn’t heard (for we all need recognition, right, else we wouldn’t even be typing).
The trick here is twofold: don’t get personal, and especially, don’t take it personally!!
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- cosmic ray
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Re: Nerf Warlock
Then I find it hard to believe that you, as a warlock player, would be happy with some of the changes suggested here. When the nerfbots assemble and roll out, I'm reminded of that Monty Python sketch entitled "Four Yorkshiremen".
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Re: Nerf Warlock
Yes, I support that CON reduction cannot be fixed by a Lesser Restoration potion/wand.
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Re: Nerf Warlock
Maybe just the Hellfire PRC should be reworked to a 5-10 level PRC with proper scaling and a bit more flavor.
For just 3 levels it gives a lot of power.
For just 3 levels it gives a lot of power.
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Re: Nerf Warlock
I know this is an old(ish) thread but what about creating an invocation that removes con damage - maybe it’s the only thing that can remove hellfire induced con damage. Make the invocation a pre-requisite to take before you can get any hellfire levels. I’d say that giving a 1/12th of your invocations is a decent price to pay for the power that hellfire can add to a warlock.
I’d leave the other ‘issues’ with warlock alone, except for fixing the SR issue with their base blasts.
I’d leave the other ‘issues’ with warlock alone, except for fixing the SR issue with their base blasts.
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Re: Nerf Warlock
The Repelling radius is fine, it's an AoE, and has nothing to do with the Hellfire/Resto conundrum. I don't know how a thread about Hellfire/Resto turned into taking potshots at the warlock class when the issue is one exploit for a specific PrC.KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote: ↑Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:06 pm Not sure why nobody still got to nerfing the Repelling radius. It's a Kaedrin leftover that shouldn't be here and I haven't seen a single person who'd oppose this particular nerf. About the rest — the class seems fine to me. Conlock is a killing machine, but I don't know a solution how to nerf it without harming other warlock archetypes as well. Hellfire warlock redesign seems to be in order, this PrC is exploitable (and its summon is overpowered, especially on early levels). Self-damage instead of con drain, as many above mentioned, could help.
They're not OP, they're just intended as one-trick ponies who are extremely adept at that trick--typically blasting enemies at one pop per round, with some room for self buffs and mobility.
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