BGTSCC's RP Environment - A Discussion

[Rad-Icarus]

I hear a lot of complaints about the grindy nature of things and complaining about newer characters rocketing up levels, but when I talk to some of these people, they admit they have never tried some of the newer dungeon/area content and have no interest unless it's proven ahead of time to be equally as easy and lucrative to farm for XP or gold.

I also see some server veterans sticking to the tried and true server powerhouse builds so they can solo key areas that are the designated superior grind/loot zones. Teleporting from area to area with scrolls and barely a word or thought about it. Then acting cynical and passive aggressively deriding characters that are actually engaged or excited to make the "grind" into something resembling an in character adventure or personal/group quest.

I would ask some of the server veterans if they have tried playing a lower level alt and exploring some of the new or modified content on occasion when you feel things are stale just as one example? You might even find some value or friendship with newer players and their characters outside your circle. If that's not enough - you may be able to help guide and shape them into community members that you would want to interact with later through your interactions, rather than placing all the initiative and expectations on the newer players. I often meet up with newer players that are shocked when I talk to them and offer to help get them acquainted with the server and engage with their short term goals.

For those of us with limited DM interaction and attention, we have to be creative and find ways to make our own fun. Perhaps there's a monotony and cynicism of expectation that's set in on the other side of that? It can get monotonous without any greater plots or purpose beyond what you come up with as individual players, and maybe the counterpart is true and taken for granted as well.

[YYA]

I would like to point our Bob uses Bastard Swords.

Point taken.

But I have talked about Bob the Warrior, Bob the Mage, Bob the whatever is relevant long before Bob the Hero joined this server.

[mastajabba]

If any Good Aligned or Neutralish lean towards good people want to do RP Dungeon crawls I would suggest hitting up your friendly neighborhood Radiant Heart Patrol.

Evil dudes go kick rocks

Jokes aside I ha some of the best and most reffreshing a laughing out butts off in Chat last night with a new (or new to us) player. Sometimes allowing RP to play out pays out. Always give RP a chance.

[JustAnotherGuy]

The word "Inclusion" seems to be the battle-cry lately. That and whether or not there should be consequences. "Include more people in plots" seems to be the general sentiment, regardless of previous interaction. I personally believe this is antithetical to what people are trying to achieve.

Yes, people should get as equal DM attention as possible. But no, not everyone should have access to any plots they want. To take it to an extreme, I don't think anyone would take the Radiant Heart seriously if they complained that they were left out of DM events where the Zhentarim were plotting something in secret. People would think that is ludicrous. But it is a perfect example of "exclusion and consequences". The Radiant Heart have chosen to be the "good guys". And so, because of that, they have the consequence of not being able to be a part of the Zhentarim plotting.

Obviously, this is a very exaggerated example. But it serves to prove the point I am about to make. Not everyone should be allowed to be in every event/plot. Again, yes. They should also get DM attention. But in a different plot/event.

If character A does something that makes character B hate them, then Player B should not be looked down upon for excluding character A. "But B is getting DM attention!". So be it. It's not B's fault that A acted in such a way. And it's not B's job to make sure the DMs are paying equal attention to people. It's the DMs' job.

Besides all this, the more people involved in a plot, the more the DM has to monitor, keep track of, etc. It becomes more logistics, so the DM can only be tied up in one or two plots at a time. With smaller plots, with less inclusion, the DMs can focus on more plots, and thus spread their time around even more, and actually end up involving more people in things.

Then we get into people like me. 75+ explosions in Iraq/Afghanistan have left my brain in a sorry state. Get more than 5-6 people included in an event, and my anxiety levels spike. I can't follow half of what is being said or done. Even parties or social events where there is too many people I can't handle. That's why I play a druid who can't handle too many people. Because I personally cannot.

Finally, we get to the fact that large scale, all inclusive events do not progress characters. They become fodder for fireside stories, sure. But whether you are a "character focused" RPer, or a "Story Focused" RPer, I think we can agree that these large scale events do not advance either. The smaller, personal events are the ones that impact our characters and our stories.

TLDR: I think "inclusion" is the wrong word and idea to be championing. I think what we really want is involvement. Smaller events that are exclusive, but more of them to involve more of the server, and spread around the DM attention.

[Anrilor]

The word "Inclusion" seems to be the battle-cry lately. That and whether or not there should be consequences. "Include more people in plots" seems to be the general sentiment, regardless of previous interaction. I personally believe this is antithetical to what people are trying to achieve.

Yes, people should get as equal DM attention as possible. But no, not everyone should have access to any plots they want. To take it to an extreme, I don't think anyone would take the Radiant Heart seriously if they complained that they were left out of DM events where the Zhentarim were plotting something in secret. People would think that is ludicrous. But it is a perfect example of "exclusion and consequences". The Radiant Heart have chosen to be the "good guys". And so, because of that, they have the consequence of not being able to be a part of the Zhentarim plotting.

Obviously, this is a very exaggerated example. But it serves to prove the point I am about to make. Not everyone should be allowed to be in every event/plot. Again, yes. They should also get DM attention. But in a different plot/event.

If character A does something that makes character B hate them, then Player B should not be looked down upon for excluding character A. "But B is getting DM attention!". So be it. It's not B's fault that A acted in such a way. And it's not B's job to make sure the DMs are paying equal attention to people. It's the DMs' job.

Besides all this, the more people involved in a plot, the more the DM has to monitor, keep track of, etc. It becomes more logistics, so the DM can only be tied up in one or two plots at a time. With smaller plots, with less inclusion, the DMs can focus on more plots, and thus spread their time around even more, and actually end up involving more people in things.

Then we get into people like me. 75+ explosions in Iraq/Afghanistan have left my brain in a sorry state. Get more than 5-6 people included in an event, and my anxiety levels spike. I can't follow half of what is being said or done. Even parties or social events where there is too many people I can't handle. That's why I play a druid who can't handle too many people. Because I personally cannot.

Finally, we get to the fact that large scale, all inclusive events do not progress characters. They become fodder for fireside stories, sure. But whether you are a "character focused" RPer, or a "Story Focused" RPer, I think we can agree that these large scale events do not advance either. The smaller, personal events are the ones that impact our characters and our stories.

TLDR: I think "inclusion" is the wrong word and idea to be championing. I think what we really want is involvement. Smaller events that are exclusive, but more of them to involve more of the server, and spread around the DM attention.

+1

However, cavate, with limited volunteer DMs, not everyone will have access to smaller exclusive events that help progress character and story arcs. Which means people need to have patience. Transparency from DMs would be nice about on going plots and who they have involved. This leads to two things, people involved in plots, and those that are not. But if we as a community come to understand that sometimes others are going to have plots and others will be without, understand that those without may have frustrations. These are understandable, however, if DMs aid in forming a 'queue' of sorts. Taking in the requests from players about plots and seeing or being told how long they can expect before their plot will be run, I think, would be useful.

For ongoing plots, if your character would be interested in getting involved in an on going plot, what could be done is to message both the DM and the players already involved to see if you may join with your angle for your character of why they are interested. If you get a no, that's those players rights and/or the DMs rights with the DM knowing his limits and what he set up the event to be. If you get the yes, then great! and now the DM doesn't have to worry about being overloaded trying to follow the text wall or on the fly adjusting the encounters.

Now I know when I submit DM requests, usually Ghost responds to let me know it has been seen and placed into the DM forums to be discussed and talked over. Usually after a week, I get an answer, or a reply from a DM to say they are taking it up, and then times are discussed to move forward. But these are for simple one off requests. More complicated, longer plots require more time to talk about, set up, and prep for. These are things Players need to take in account. If you don't get a response from a DM after a week, poke the DM team again, ON THE SAME THREAD so it pops up again.

Also when making a request try to follow the given setup viewtopic.php?f=10&t=70168 as given by the staff and DMs.

[DM SummerBreeze]

The truth is we can't have every person able to access every plot. As nice as it would be, there is a point when you involve too many people and the plot begins to fall apart at the seams. The more people beyond about 10 that a DM involves in any given plot, the more difficult it becomes to keep track of things and to make it work by orders of magnitude more. There is also the concern of repetition for a DM as well.

An example of this: Party A wants to investigate item X that they found. So DM runs a small RP plot for Party A and Party A shares the results with their closest companions. Now Party B C D also want to investigate item X. At this point, the DM would be spending hours upon hours of their time running what amounts to the same event 4 times in a row with the same outcome. Meanwhile, Party A is sending DM PM's on Discord/Forum/Whatever asking when the continuation is because its taking so long....only because DM is mired in what one would call "inclusion" in the event.

Another example: Player group A has been in this plot for months, they know whats going on, they're up on the rumours, they have been consistently RPing in and out of the plot toward goals in these event series. Group B comes along either at the middle, or end of the series of events. Group B has no real idea what is going on at all, perhaps does not even know Group A at all, never even interacted with them. Something goes down in the event that makes sense to Group A because they already knew what they were getting into, group B, having just come across it in the end/middle, has no idea and get angry/upset. Group B then cusses out/yells at DM because of consequences during the event that they did not understand might happen because they didn't know now what was actually going on in the series of events leading up to that point. DM none the less, had let Group B join the event out of a sense of inclusion.

These examples are things that have happed to me on multiple occasions, and I am sure I am not the only DM.

There is only so much a DM can take on in a reasonable level. People also tend to forget on this server quite often, that DM's are also handling a lot of things behind the scenes as well, tracking issues, offenders, clerical duties, working on new plots for the future ect, they also tend to forget that there are people behind the DM that have lives, jobs, families and things they have to prioritize over this server and DMing, and sometimes, we would like to enjoy the server as a player occasionally as well. How much open, free time does this leave a person? I can tell you: Not much. I personally haven't played as a player in more than 6 months in any meaningful capacity.

All I ask that people consider in this discussion are these issues as well. We are aware that people all want to be in plots and events, but we just don't have the manpower and time to reasonable always be including every person in everything.

Please consider the people behind the DM's, and consider whether your character being in the plot will bring something meaningful to that plot or even make sense to be there at all, and consider the enjoyment of the other people involved in it. Think of others, is all I ask.

[Wolfrayne]

Please consider the people behind the DM's, and consider whether your character being in the plot will bring something meaningful to that plot or even make sense to be there at all, and consider the enjoyment of the other people involved in it. Think of others, is all I ask.

This. This has always been a problem. People see a DM event and immediately jump across to it or teleport and run around to find it even if it doesnt make sense for them to be there. Honestly i miss the days where the larger groups had specific DMs that would help them with their plots. Of course we know this doesnt really work with how quickly the team can burn out.

Honestly i feel like less large week/month spanning events and more short little stories would come a long way in helping people have a chance to tell their stories and feel included. We dont all need to be the ultimate god slaying heroes, who beat down 10 balor bare handed etc. Whatever happened to the local heroes who helped solve the crime of the missing cow?.

[Tekill]

Whatever happened to the local heroes who helped solve the crime of the missing cow?.

So true.

But the question that comes to my mind is why do the DM's only have the power to abduct cows?!
Why not give the players the ability to be cow-nappers?

There are a lot of us players that would be happy to play the villian. Why not free up some of the DM's time by relasing a bit of control, and giving us players some responsibility of being the antagonists?

[Deathgrowl]

Whatever happened to the local heroes who helped solve the crime of the missing cow?.

They started killing balors and dracoliches and talking rather trivially about how many they had slain, and suddenly it felt overkill sending near-demi-gods to retrieve a cow.

There are a lot of us players that would be happy to play the villian. Why not free up some of the DM's time by relasing a bit of control, and giving us players some responsibility of being the antagonists?

Some people already do play and have played villians quite successfully.

But what are you asking for here, by releasing control? You want to have freer reign on PvP? Would you accept harsher consequences for your actions if that was the case? And with that in mind, would you build characters built so outrageously for PvP that it's a detriment to the RP of the character, so as to lessen the chances of losing to the "heroes" where you are the "villian"?

[Steve]

There are a lot of us players that would be happy to play the villian. Why not free up some of the DM's time by relasing a bit of control, and giving us players some responsibility of being the antagonists?

How about letting more players become DMs, even in a temporary window of time, to prove that they can make a difference in that Role, for Players and the Server?

[Rad-Icarus]

This. This has always been a problem. People see a DM event and immediately jump across to it or teleport and run around to find it even if it doesnt make sense for them to be there. Honestly i miss the days where the larger groups had specific DMs that would help them with their plots. Of course we know this doesnt really work with how quickly the team can burn out.

That's certainly valid from a purely pragmatic approach.

However:

I don't think it may even register that for many players in the playerbase, that will be the only real DM or plot involvement they will ever be exposed to or interact with. Perhaps for years. Aside from an occasional random spawn of some nasty critters that was probably only encountered because they happen to have a player that gets regular DM attention in their random adventure group.

[Ordren]

That's certainly valid from a purely pragmatic approach.

However:

I don't think it may even register that for many players in the playerbase, that will be the only real DM or plot involvement they will ever be exposed to or interact with. Perhaps for years. Aside from an occasional random spawn of some nasty critters that was probably only encountered because they happen to have a player that gets regular DM attention in their random adventure group.

Pretty much how it feels yes. And most of the time you just happen upon the stuff. The other night me and some guy i met outside the FAI went to cloakwood only to find an army of flinds spawned there. No DM interaction and the flinds largely stronger than the area might suggest we managed to kill a few 1 by 1. Without DM interaction the mobs just stood there til engaged. After a few mobs we figured out that ehh DM's not doing it for us even though noone was present except us at the time so we left and felt ashamed we probably ruined a bit of the DM's prep.

It also makes you jaded enough to just avoiding an event that unfolds before you as you feel its not meant for you. My 10 cents.

[Ghost]

I don't think it may even register that for many players in the playerbase, that will be the only real DM or plot involvement they will ever be exposed to or interact with. Perhaps for years. Aside from an occasional random spawn of some nasty critters that was probably only encountered because they happen to have a player that gets regular DM attention in their random adventure group.

I wasn't going to post in this thread from my DM account, but since this is pointing some fingers at the DM team, I feel like I have to respond so that people don't think there are "players who get regular DM attention" out of some kind of favouritism. Since my return to the server and DM team in May, I have worked extremely hard to respond to and push player requests as a priority on the DM team, with no discrimination on who sends in. I have been told through backchannels that some of the players who I have DMed for have rather disliked me before I DMed for them (but never really been told why), but I am in the role of a DM and I don't care who likes me or not. I will DM for anyone, provided the request is reasonable and thematically interesting for me as a DM. I have no preferences on who I DM for. I have in fact practically only done events and plots based on player requests, because that is in my DM philosophy top priority - the player characters are the protagonists, they should be able to go out and take initiative in the world.

I know there are other DMs who perfer to run wider scope plots, and that's fine too. Not my style, though.

But I have to admit it is a bit disheartening to have this kind of charge repeatedly thrown at the entire DM team, that we give attention to some people only, when I have worked so hard, to be approachable for everyone and always push, push, push the requests sent to us.

[Theodore01]

However:

I don't think it may even register that for many players in the playerbase, that will be the only real DM or plot involvement they will ever be exposed to or interact with. Perhaps for years. Aside from an occasional random spawn of some nasty critters that was probably only encountered because they happen to have a player that gets regular DM attention in their random adventure group.

Exactly, such a true point!

And how I miss the random events for a small and level restricted! group of players that happened quite often years ago.

[DM Spartacus]

But the question that comes to my mind is why do the DM's only have the power to abduct cows?!
Why not give the players the ability to be cow-nappers?

I have picked on this quote, but my thoughts refer to a number of similar points, some made by players who have never submitted an event request.

The thread started by looking for solutions to issues. That should still be a thing imho.

So to reflect first DM as a generalisation use the event request, and there an outline form for that it would be helpful to use. Very few groups or people use this system. It is the easiest way to get dm attention and outweighs the slim prospect of running into an event that either ooc or IC can support the infux of additional players.

I encourage anyone though who does run into an event and wants to take part to pm the dm ooc and use some ic methods to be part of it. It may well not be possible ooc and ic not desirable. The group should show common decency and let the dm negotiate and avoid some of the issues demonstrated above.

Some events are obviously open and invites offered accordingly. People should negotiate via dm, not the player groups, for other things and both existing group and joining player respect any decision with good grace. This could lead to the objective being changed and such and so the dm has to make a decision based on many things including available time table, then and later. (as outlined above by other responses)

But there is little reason this cannot work better. The methodology I think is fine we just need to apply it. If you think the methodology needs more then lets post that here, seeking solutions. Build on solutions if we can.

In respect of the quote, yes of course players can be and have been the bad guy in stories, sometimes behind a scene, sometimes not. I have had players run and support outlaw gangs, players infiltrate plots to help bad guy npc, Create evil armies then handed over to dm to run plots with. DM Ghost has suggested a similar support. This has gone on throughout the time I have played here. These things all started with players filling that form out.