NERF THE MASTER ALCHEMIST ELIXIRS!!!

[yyj]

Well I just want to bring the thread back to topic.


Tortoise shell and Owl insight NEED to be adjusted/nerfed, that's the only thing that should be discussed, not UMD, not other elixirs, not the MA class, but those two spells/elixirs, there are many good suggestions, either capping the CL or adding the spells to the breach list.

They are too powerful and currently provide no RP to the server, and even then, having their CL capped will not hinder any druidic elixir making RP at all, it will just hurt OOC money making machines, which is fine because it seems those brought the issue to light.

They're good money makers, simply because theyre always posted on the AH, you buy some and they get replaced next day. It seems like making money without having to loot and grind has always been there, but it's restricted to this.

[cosmic ray]

Someone added op elixirs to the game and someday the original spellcasting classes will pay the price with more unpondered untested arbitrary nerfs. Well done.

[Rhifox]

Tortoise Shell is fine.

Owl's Insight though... so many changes over the years have been due to having to try and balance the game around this absolutely out-of-whack spell. Monk/Druid was banned because of it, new polymorph changes had to have limits put in place to prevent monk AC from applying in shifted forms because of it, people are calling for elixir nerfs because of it, anything that has to do with monks ever has to be considered with 'but what about OI'.

Owl's Insight was grossly overtuned and out of step with normal spell balance design by original DnD devs and then buffed by NWN devs. And we're constantly having to develop around and make exceptions because of it. It's getting tiring.

[mrm3ntalist]

Owl's Insight though... so many changes over the years have been due to having to try and balance the game around this absolutely out-of-whack spell. Monk/Druid was banned because of it, new polymorph changes had to have limits put in place to prevent monk AC from applying in shifted forms because of it, people are calling for elixir nerfs because of it, anything that has to do with monks ever has to be considered with 'but what about OI'.

Owl's Insight was grossly overtuned and out of step with normal spell balance design by original DnD devs and then buffed by NWN devs. And we're constantly having to develop around and make exceptions because of it. It's getting tiring.

Thats true. Owls insight can be capped and compensate for the classes it affects - druid and SS - in a different way

[Arn]

I'm just calling for some sort of Owl's Insight elixir nerf.

Not saying Druids have to be nerfed, not saying the Owl's Insight spell has to be nerfed. Just Owl's Insight elixirs. My monk shouldn't get to carry this kind of buff around in his pocket.

#MakeMonksMortal

[cosmic ray]

Tortoise Shell is fine.

Owl's Insight though... so many changes over the years have been due to having to try and balance the game around this absolutely out-of-whack spell. Monk/Druid was banned because of it, new polymorph changes had to have limits put in place to prevent monk AC from applying in shifted forms because of it, people are calling for elixir nerfs because of it, anything that has to do with monks ever has to be considered with 'but what about OI'.

Owl's Insight was grossly overtuned and out of step with normal spell balance design by original DnD devs and then buffed by NWN devs. And we're constantly having to develop around and make exceptions because of it. It's getting tiring.

No pure druids are breaking the spell though. For them, it's just a bit more DC. Is that so broken? The druid spellbook is much worse for DC spells than the arcane spellbook. Monk/druid was forbidden for a reason, but now all monks have access to CL 30 OI anyway. I'm not saying that is necessarily broken, but, if it is, then nerf just that (and in a way that doesn't ruin elixirs in general, as they are EXTREMELY expensive to maintain). Don't hit the druids who are using the spell more "legitimately" as Ao intended. They are already a bit rubbish as casters compared to a mage and the best thing they can do is all the different shapes they can assume. Owl's Insight just helps getting DCs a bit higher for some suboptimal spells that bosses tend to be immune to and all epic monsters save against anyway.

To be frank, I could see this coming the day elixirs were introduced, as they fundamentally changed the gameplay we had been used to. I'm just surprised it took years to arrive.

[Steve]

The issue still exists, unresolved: nothing in this game should be Immune. CL 30 elixirs raises the gaming bar to an unacceptable level of meta-win in gameplay. How do you defend that?

And, just in pure fairness, no consumable should equal the power of the actual “source” of the magic, that being the caster in this case. So, cap CL on consumables to 28 CL, at least. And, that scrolls have been given an artificial cap but then elixirs are somehow justified…wtf?

Just because it takes years to address an issue, doesn’t devalue the action.

[cosmic ray]

I guess meister alchemist was yet another one of those unpondered untested changes, huh? Really, there are so many by now, half of them undocumented, must we really nitpick?

[Steve]

... I’m going to bet that even the toxic effects a PC should experience aren’t even that toxic, and can even likely be mitigated with further restoration/healing options so prevalent and available. Prove me wrong!

It’s a double dare!! Come holla at me.

That's what I thought!

[Xorena]

... I’m going to bet that even the toxic effects a PC should experience aren’t even that toxic, and can even likely be mitigated with further restoration/healing options so prevalent and available. Prove me wrong!

It’s a double dare!! Come holla at me.

That's what I thought!

If you want to test this I can provide some cheap elixirs.

[Steve]

If you want to test this I can provide some cheap elixirs.

Well...you know what they say about Half-orcs and free booze...: DON'T!!!

[YYA]

I guess meister alchemist was yet another one of those unpondered untested changes, huh? Really, there are so many by now, half of them undocumented, must we really nitpick?

*Yawns.*

You know, Master Alchemist was supposed to be a 10 level PRC here, with access to 7th level elixirs tops. I think it was for a while anyhow, until the amount of levels was cut down to half to make it seem like less of a waste: the one guy who wanted it didn't want it. At first maximum level cap for elixirs was 15 or 20, until those were slowly raised over the years. And so on, and so on.

Anyhow, if you must be moaning about these two spells...

Tortoise Shell literally caps at +9 AC at caster level 20, and as for Owl's Insight the cap is hit at caster level 24. If you cap elixirs at caster level of 25 or something, a max level Greater Dispel will have roughly a 25% chance to dispel both. Is that acceptable to all of you? And after the chance, if anyone has some secret stock of caster level 30 elixirs left, well, consumables get consumed if they are ever used.



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As for the use of UMD, I have never actually made use of it on this server, beyond using scrolls of Polymorph to transform a drow character into a horse in Soubar. I guess I also used elixirs of Restoration on that same drow as well to get rid of random negative levels. That is all. As for the loot changes, well, it sounds like the server went back to the old loot system it had years and years ago, and to my comment on that is as follows: find out what you can kill with relative ease, and you will level up to 30 in no time. The most difficult area is not always the best area to level, and keep checking the in game auction house because you can get great items for few thousand or tens of thousands of gold coins. Most builds just need to get their hands on +3 or +4 items to get most out of the server anyhow -- and those +3 and +4 items are usually seen as mundane vendor trash by players who do those loot runs.

So if someone struggles with the server's content, well, you can probably adjust your build in some manner or just accept that some areas pose danger to your character. Also, it helps to waste feats to get things like Brutal Throw, Zen Archery, or Reserve Spell Feats so you can fight at distance when facing those dangerous areas in a party.

[cosmic ray]

Some people just don't understand that this is not a competitive game,so they allow themselves to become obsessed with nerfs.

[Steve]

Some people just don't understand that this is not a competitive game,so they allow themselves to become obsessed with nerfs.

Tell THAT to the mobs.

This is the defining point of a competitive game: there will be at least one winner and at least one loser in the end.

[Ewe]

You know what's busted? Level 1 with all +4 gear and SR enough to be immune to all spells. That literally breaks the content more than anything we have in end-game.

However, people can play how they want, if they want an easier time they can cheese things a million different ways. If they want a more authentic experience they can choose that route too. That's why we have the permadeath system, muling allowed, so on.

You can choose to use elixirs or not, it's up to you. No one is forcing you to use them. Going after everything that is fun in the game and corralling it in just because you think "nothing else like this exists" just seeks to streamline the game, limit options, and quite frankly make for a more bland experience.

I'm honestly kind of tired of nerf this or nerf that threads that keep popping up.