BGTSCC's RP Environment - A Discussion

[Alexander Holgart]

ヽ(´▽｀)ノ .:* AWESOME MUSIC *:. (ง^ᗜ^)ง

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I kept asking myself about how and what my ideal BGTSCC would be like, I kept giving myself many different ideas that right now I might have forgot but I'll try to put in writing what comes to my mind. The following thoughts are not based on what is sustainable and what is not, it's just what I would like to see if anything was achievable without any restrictions and with my own taste on things alone.

The classic question, what will you do if you win the lottery? This is my answer.

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1. The Fall of High Magic
Tone down on magic accessibility, in many ways. Less gold, less levels, less scrolls, less potions, less wands, less UMD abuse, less powerful gear. Add costs for powerful spells such as resurrection, make the server feel like throwing some especially useful and powerful spells is an act that should not be as easy as breathing. Use powerful lore monsters as they should be used, less crowds and abuse of creatures such as Solars, Pit Fiends and the like. Plots with less powerful lore NPCs. Tone it down. All of it.

2. The Fall of Crowded Slaughterfest Events
I could talk to you for ages about how and why crowded events are painful and boring/unfair, for a lot of reasons, at least to me. Inclusion doesn't mean that we all have to swim in the same watered down broth for the sake of having everyone swimming in it. Inclusion can be achieved making more -separate- plots for smaller groups (even consider assigned DMs to groups and factions), so everyone has a better chance to be impactful and less chance to be stepped over by more vocal players that type like the world is about to end, not everyone is that fast. And please, please please please, less fighting... more story, narrative and choices.

3. Transparency and Community Ethic
DMs should not have a horse in the race with their characters and interests, I would love to see DMs shelve their characters for all the duration of their role. If they want to still play their characters and be involved then they should not be given the chance to be anonymous, if you want to be DM and have a horse in the race everyone has to know it. I think it's only fair.

4. The baddies
Our evil players, our protected species on the brink of extinction. Evil factions/players should get -MORE- DM support, and I'm saying it as a LG paladin main. I'd rather see baddies with DM support and narrative immersion enhancement provided by the DMs than people that are forced to make insane powerbuilds to survive the ganking. There is no fun in that, if I wanted mechanical PvP with next to no balance whatsoever I would play a Blizzard game (shots fired). I am here for RP and narrative, please give the baddies ways to enhance and promote their evil stories. If you want to play a villain with conflict/supervillainous intents than an option should be made to play a "monster" character with an approved application, literally apply to be a powerful villain with a set story and goals but a timed lifespan. Literally apply to be a player plot, I've seen this working elsewhere with great results.

5. That word that cannot be spoken - Consequences
Loss and failure propel incredible narrative moments, not always death and torture. Yes, I think we, as players, should fail more. The constant winning make the narrative silly beyond belief, our characters feel like gods on earth at times (see point one). Not only we should fail more, but we should embrace failure as a powerful narrative moment. I also think that failure should not be driven by numbers and build planning, failure should be a -NARRATIVE- consequence, I really don't want to give the server in the hands of powerbuilders, that's not RP.

5. PvP and Powerbuilding
I enjoy PvP in many games, in this game PvP is an utter disaster. I hate it with all my heart about unfair, clunky, and obscure it is in its mechanics. Let's face it, balance is non existent, can PvP be fair and enjoyable in a server that wants to be RP focused, on this basis? No. I had to renounce a more RP oriented build to fit into this environment, PVE included. D&D is not really made for PvP, all the manuals are very defensive about PvP in general because this is simply not made for it.

But we can't simply deny the option of conflict can we? No. So what?

Reduce the powerbuilding and make the PvP a bit more fair by making applications for PRCs, every single PRC on your character should have narrative explanation and approval. You want a powerbuild? Work for it.

6. WIPE IT ALL OUT!
Just wipe the server after implementing a number of the changes listed above. You don't have to play a new character, you can play the same one maybe with a boost on your starting level. The amount of loot, gold and probably illegal or overpowered items around is something that can be fixed by a wipe only at this point.

Other Thoughts
A Discord server should be made official with a channel for each faction that is accessible by DMs and Admins.

Alts should not be able to join factions or the same plots/stories another character from the same player is involved in.

Muling should not be allowed, people having alts crafting for other alts especially. That reduces interactions between players and rp (especially for dedicated crafters) because you can be simply self sufficient if you play long enough.

Expand the crafting system! Let's have smiths, leatherworkers and such.

Final thoughts - Server Direction
Do I expect all of the above to be liked by the community and implemented? Absolutely not!
But I believe that perhaps one of the greatest problems of this server is the attempt to make everyone happy renouncing a clear identity and direction, so everyone is here having a little bit of something of what they want... but not to the fullest of what they desire. If I had to pick a direction for the server it should RP and narrative oriented, character sheets and numbers should have less importance than good ideas and powerful and engaging stories. Anything made to enhance the RP experience and immersion should take higher priority.

But taking a more defined direction means that some people are not going to be happy, yea... some people will not like it, some people will go away.

But you know what? Maybe some others are gonna come back.

This... staying in the middle between a light rp and high rp identity is just giving and causing more pain, I believe. We have many talented writers, narrators... and I'd love to see an environment that values their skills more.

I likely forgot much of what I think and what I wanted to say, but anyway... I love you all, we are all D&D players and RPers before anything else.

We are all on the same side in the real world, and I'm sure I'd enjoy playing face to face at a table with each one of you.

[Tekill]

You know what?!
Screw it, do Alexander's thing.

[Steve]

@Ghost and @Sparty:

Why isn’t posting in the Role-play section of the Forum enough? Why isn’t posting in Guild/Faction sections—like the Ducal Court faction—enough to “get DMs attention?

I admit that maybe I missed the memo, and I’m happy to accept the reality, that if a Player doesn’t send in an OOC Form Request for DM attention, they have no real grounds to complain about attention/response.

I will say that I absolutely support and respect that recently and right now, the DM Team is dedicated to Player Requests (done in official channel). That’s great news. But I will also say that myself, personally, seeing all my requests over the last year ignored, even after repeated attempts for a response, literally made me stop wanting to RP with DMs overall.

That’s why I applied to DM myself, so that I could then RP with Players in a more meaningful way FOR THEM, because I myself now firsthand how it feels like to feel the disinterest.

Nonetheless, shouldn’t there also be a more indirect, even passive means, for Players to create RP and have DM response, without an OOC channel? I understand and support that if a DM(s) have no interest in the request, either directly or indirectly, it’s just not going to get picked up. But are OOC responses then sent out letting players know to “give up” that RP story, and try for somethings else?

[Hoihe]

ヽ(´▽｀)ノ .:* AWESOME MUSIC *:. (ง^ᗜ^)ง

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Final thoughts - Server Direction
Do I expect all of the above to be liked by the community and implemented? Absolutely not!
But I believe that perhaps one of the greatest problems of this server is the attempt to make everyone happy renouncing a clear identity and direction, so everyone is here having a little bit of something of what they want... but not to the fullest of what they desire. If I had to pick a direction for the server it should RP and narrative oriented, character sheets and numbers should have less importance than good ideas and powerful and engaging stories. Anything made to enhance the RP experience and immersion should take higher priority.

But taking a more defined direction means that some people are not going to be happy, yea... some people will not like it, some people will go away.

But you know what? Maybe some others are gonna come back.

This... staying in the middle between a light rp and high rp identity is just giving and causing more pain, I believe. We have many talented writers, narrators... and I'd love to see an environment that values their skills more.

I likely forgot much of what I think and what I wanted to say, but anyway... I love you all, we are all D&D players and RPers before anything else.

We are all on the same side in the real world, and I'm sure I'd enjoy playing face to face at a table with each one of you.

Issue is, I feel that at the extreme - as many players there exists, as many definition of high RP will.

I know for certain that my definition of High RP will be "boring" or "not enough story" for most people present. Because its purpose is to maximize simulation/immersion. But it is a de facto form of HRP, as made evidence by people in 2004 having massive forum wars between that aspect of roleplay, and its "contrast" which others peddle.

Although, I personally believe that High RP in my definition is permissive of other systems, requiring at worst people to self-police for things my definition does not automatically police (while not requiring those who don't care for those systems to do anything).

While the flipside would make my definition impossible to exist.

[Rhifox]

You know what?!
Screw it, do Alexander's thing.

+1

[Rain]

There are a lot of us players that would be happy to play the villian. Why not free up some of the DM's time by relasing a bit of control, and giving us players some responsibility of being the antagonists?

Some of us are trying and have been for a long time now.

You do have a point about the responsibility and control though. Its a very rare case that being an antagonist in any avenue is aided by the DM’s in a meaningful way.

[Xorena]

The word "Inclusion" seems to be the battle-cry lately. That and whether or not there should be consequences. "Include more people in plots" seems to be the general sentiment, regardless of previous interaction. I personally believe this is antithetical to what people are trying to achieve.

If there is a DM plot announced on the forum in a way my character should reasonably understand and she desires to take an action, if I send a DM a message, I should have a chance to be involved. Artificially excluding players for OOC reasons should not be a factor. I do not like massive events. Nobody roleplays well when they feel like they are in a race or afraid they are going to get gibbed by an NPC. [Edit I just realized you were making my point. Sorry. Also I need coffee]

I want Alexander's server.

[Rain]

Some people already do play and have played villians quite successfully.
But what are you asking for here, by releasing control? You want to have freer reign on PvP? Would you accept harsher consequences for your actions if that was the case? And with that in mind, would you build characters built so outrageously for PvP that it's a detriment to the RP of the character, so as to lessen the chances of losing to the "heroes" where you are the "villian"?

The reason for this stereotype that bad guys all have powerbuilds is because its definitely true and its true for a reason. It’s because the number of -> openly evil <- players and characters has been decreasing more and more lately due to the constant restrictions of playing the role and the constant struggle of being out-numbered 10 v 1 because of the swap of player character alignments to the easier and quite frankly more rewarded choice. So what did we have to do? We had to adapt and learn to make characters that fit the server demographic first and the RP later. It sucks that this is the case but until anyone actually makes real “attempts” of playing antagonist characters many do not understand what we go through and why our characters are built the way they are.

Alexander explained it quite well himself.

4. The baddies
Our evil players, our protected species on the brink of extinction. Evil factions/players should get -MORE- DM support, and I'm saying it as a LG paladin main. I'd rather see baddies with DM support and narrative immersion enhancement provided by the DMs than people that are forced to make insane powerbuilds to survive the ganking. There is no fun in that, if I wanted mechanical PvP with next to no balance whatsoever I would play a Blizzard game (shots fired). I am here for RP and narrative, please give the baddies ways to enhance and promote their evil stories. If you want to play a villain with conflict/supervillainous intents than an option should be made to play a "monster" character with an approved application, literally apply to be a powerful villain with a set story and goals but a timed lifespan. Literally apply to be a player plot, I've seen this working elsewhere with great results.

[Ashenie]

Hello there,

It is rare for me to post in such discussion. I have read a lot, seen a lot happening in game. I have had my share of OOC accusations, bad words and insults sent to me. While I can relate to what some have felt when accused of this and that, it did not stop me from having fun here personnaly, nor to try to push further all the things, even so tiny, that I am glad to work for. Maybe at some point it feels like we fear logging on : "For what, to be bashed again ?" but honestly, I found more wonderful things when I logged on, than when I forced myself to stay away with my pain and tears. To be perfectly honest, I miss roleplay when I don't get to play.

I wish first to thank Dungeon Masters. They take on their time to offer stories, to council, to help, and volunteer to offer in my experience all they can to make the experience better with the means they have. Sometimes their vision did not match mine, but I never felt like they purposefully bashed anyone to make them feel miserable. I wish to thank them because when I read this post, I feel like it's so hard for them. Here they are not fair enough, there they have favorites players/characters, and they even lack of interest for some. I want to say that this is not my experience, and this is not what I think is best to help them and cheer them in turn. What may happen is that people who volunteer their time give up. Because it is never good enough, because they also have a life, a family and a job, and it's not fair to ask so much of them. I personnaly try to not ask of Dungeon Masters what I don't ask of players, in terms of presence, time and involvment. Many think about what a Dungeon Master should or should not do, would you then apply and volunteer more of your time to help them, tell narrive stories, or with more immersion, or else? You can also be part of the team and impulse dynamics!

I would wish to have a word on unfairness, favortism and such.
There are three major points that make us all unfair, regardless of what we do. Unless we decide to force someone to play, they will remain unfair. I believe before pointing accusation of favoritism here and there, they should be wisely considered, because I feel like they really impact us all and who gets to play the central parts.

- The timezones are a big factor on who gets involved in events. There are numbers of plot I do not have access to, despite the themes matching my character's interests. I can take the exemple of a plot of DM SummerBreeze, where it took us so many weeks to just find a date to play a small research at the cost of lack of sleep. Is it really worth it? I think I have come to accept that I cannot be everwhere, that I cannot partake every plot, and that I need to work around some plots with enough distance. In my experience, Dungeon Masters always helped this with the means they had.

- The amount of time we all allow to the game. We can think the way we want, we do not log in for the same amount of time. Should we get equal attention? Someone who is compiling notes, writing reports, trying to be involved and involve other players by spending hours of his time on the game and around, should he be rewarded the same than someone who logs in for the event and then logs off? This is a real question. But in the end, it won't make us equal. Those who will spend more time logged on will have access to more things because they have time to develop more interactions. Most of the time, things happen when I am not online. This is sad, because this day, I had no time for the game. But I try to catch up the days after!

- Language, typing speed, for whatever reason (non-native speakers, real life issues, or in my case slow by nature) make it unfair. When you are in an event, and wish to intervene, a lot of people can answer before you do because they type faster. The plot and discussions move on, while you are still typing your answer to the first thing brought up. For non-native speakers, sometimes they have to check on words, try to understand what is asked, and it's already too late.

Finally, I wish to thank players. Many of them, and I do not forget "vilains". I have a character that had a lot of attention from several antagonistic characters, which helped create an atmosphere and forced (for the good and the bad) protective characters to work around me. It forced my character to stay in the city and I had to compose with things I don't like doing - but the narrative was great. I have met several characters that I tried to help for their own development, and I thank each of them because I know it can be a lot of work. I have seen great roleplay, in the city, around the campfire, in a Temple, in the wilds, in a cave, everywhere. I feel like players are eager to roleplay, and this is great to share. I am sometimes genuinly happy to read a description, a name that I find very well made and it's enough for me to tell myself "Oh; great! I love this creativity! I like this server and the people it attracts".

We may have a lot of differences, a lot of different expectations, we do not walk in the same way, but is it worth trying to make some of us leave? If the server was less crowded, at some point, it would feel empty. Perhaps you feel that some characters have a lot of attention from Dungeon Masters and are always involved in plot : It is also a lot of work to be involved, to keep tracks, to keep informations spread. I can think of Vanira or Alyssia (Forgive me for using names) who had in their status "Working on forum reports. PM if needed.". I personnaly find it very sad that the amount of time they have to play, they have to spend it writing things on the forum because it needs to be done. I am sure others do too. And sometimes they are even shamed, because they didn't do it well enough, forgot a name, someone to send the report to. They are said to not be inclusive enough, or to cast people out. I am not sure I envy them. We all make mistakes... but we have the power to be understanding, supportive and forgiving. I don't mind if others have attention, I keep doing my own things, whether they attract crowds or just me in my own little corner. The most important for me is to keep doing things I like, not to be the center of attentions. And by doing that, I hope it may help some, or create an atmosphere, or just more immersion. I am happy if it's just that.

Lately, the Underdark had some attention from Dungeon Masters (so I heard). While the underdark is not my cup of tea, I am genuinly happy to know that players do get some attention, because I feel like they can develop further what they want. Perhaps, instead of trying to see if the herb is greener elsewhere, we could be genuinly happy for people who are playing and get to develop things and keep nurturing our own green corner. As players, seeing the server develop is one of the greatest things we all share in common.

So, my motto would rather be : "Try to be supportive, and you will see that there are a lot of wonderful roleplays/stories/immersions to witness and sometimes partake". We do not always need plots and Dungeon Masters for that, just a bit of kindness and imagination! And please, I beg you, do not forget to thank and support others for what they give, whether they are players, dungeon masters, technical support, or anything you want. The tiniest contibution helps make this server great.

[YYA]

So I've been talking with a lot of people lately about the state of BG and morale and population seem to be pretty low right now. One of the most common complaints I see is that the server is moving away from RP and towards an MMO mentality. I'd like to open a discussion with the playerbase on your concerns, and what steps we as BG staff can take to try to alleviate these issues.

I would say that problem is the exact opposite. Years gone by, when one travelled the surface, there were actual hints about the CR of any particular area -- today -- you have a red dot with the name of the area. People can argue how this change encourages exploration, how it makes areas seem more mysterious and dangerous, and the people who make these arguments usually had their level 30 characters sit at a campfire every time they logged in. I imagine they are very happy with the red dots, they have already leveled up their characters, and they already have some idea what to do at each level with a particular type of character. But when we actually imagine someone who has just joined the server, or returned to it after a long absence, the red dots are literally the worst to have come by. Which means that new players will have to enter areas without any warning of the difficulty, which results in fugue trips that could have been avoided otherwise. Thus the joy of actually trying out a new area gets replaced with a hand on a timer to see how fast you are fugued.

Another change in the PvE content is the abundance of mob casters, and it was done because there was a constant demand for more challenging mobs and more incentives to party up. These encounters are fine when you are capable to form that party, but the moment you log in during the low hours of the server, or when half the server (figuratively speaking) participates in some event -- the chances are you will be pitted against these caster mobs all alone. Which means that to survive against these caster mobs, either you make use of some silly powerbuild, or you arm yourself with UMD consumables and grandfathered equipment of some kind, preferably something that also offers spell resistance. Because at low levels, whenever mob casters spawn in groups and decide to cast their caster level 5+ Magic Missiles, unless you got the Shield Spell or ample amounts of Spell Resistance, you will be hit for 6-15 points of damage, per caster. And whenever the AI rolls for damage, those fours and fives tend to pour down like heavy rain. Let us say a group of four or so Goblin Crusaders spawn in, in one around HP pool of 100 could be down to something like 52 hitpoints, and then they start casting their second use of Magic Missile... Things can hit the fan relatively fast, so to speak. Thus, there are areas a new player will simply choose to avoid, which means that they are stuck grinding the one and same area, and after each level the mobs give less experience, and at some point the chests only offer gold.

Thus were it up to me, since the server has been split. I would just add large open air wilderness areas, possibly just along the river Chiontar that would largely have nothing but melee or ranged mobs with middling AB, AC, detection skills, and HP pools. Thus, no matter what a player's actual build would be, these mobs could be relatively easily dispatched. A player would just need to raise their AC beyond a certain point and they would be relatively safe from the danger. Thus roguish characters could just pop in and out of stealth and potentially get a kill. A wizard could use Expeditious retreat to run around, and clear a mob with a single cast of fire ball. A Frenzied Berserker could just cleave through opposition. As for the downside of these areas, maybe these mobs would only offer ten experience points less than what their CR contemporaroes would in other areas. Thus while a monster at Hill Top ruins could offer that 50 experience points per kill, at these more grind friendly areas it would be just 40 or so. Which means that while Hilltop would still give 12 points of experience, these more grind friendly areas would only offer 2. Moreover, unlike the more developed areas of the server, these would not have much in the way of chests. Thus, you would be dependent on random mob loots to earn any treasures. And if possible, these areas could be made so that with each server reset the type of monsters would be little different: one one day you could get spawns of bandits, orcs, goblins, beasts, gibberlings, drow, and something else come the next day, while the spawns within any particular area would remain more or less the same. Which in turn would lessen the need to go for power builds, or UMD, or to maximize Tumble on every character, and so on, and so on.

So one area for level ranges of: 1-5, 6-10, 11-15, 16-20, and more if you so desire to add.

Oh, and if Dungeon Masters can switch the type of monster spawns in a whim, it just makes it easier to host an impromptu event to whoever happens to be present. Maybe adventurers would team up with bandits against a random drow raid, only to be betrayed by the bandits once the threat is done. You know, simple stuff.

[Rhifox]

Perhaps, instead of trying to see if the herb is greener elsewhere, we could be genuinly happy for people who are playing and get to develop things and keep nurturing our own green corner. As players, seeing the server develop is one of the greatest things we all share in common.

So, my motto would rather be : "Try to be supportive, and you will see that there are a lot of wonderful roleplays/stories/immersions to witness and sometimes partake". We do not always need plots and Dungeon Masters for that, just a bit of kindness and imagination! And please, I beg you, do not forget to thank and support others for what they give, whether they are players, dungeon masters, technical support, or anything you want. The tiniest contibution helps make this server great.[/color][/font]

100% this.

[YYA]

You know what?!
Screw it, do Alexander's thing.

+1

-1, the servers that have done just that usually sit at 0/XY most of the day. But hey, all things have to die eventually.

[Valefort]

A technical note : as much as I loathe it muling is virtually impossible to stop.

[YYA]

A technical note : as much as I loathe it muling is virtually impossible to stop.

Even if you track down each player trade, each item picked up, players will still just create a chain of trades in order mule items to each other. They will literally wink at each other as they trade nominal sums of gold or whatever else, and what do you know, after a set period of time the items are back at their original player owners. And in this server, people could just put stuff into the in game consignment store and just 'buy' it.

[Tekill]

Perhaps, instead of trying to see if the herb is greener elsewhere, we could be genuinly happy for people who are playing and get to develop things and keep nurturing our own green corner. As players, seeing the server develop is one of the greatest things we all share in common.

So, my motto would rather be : "Try to be supportive, and you will see that there are a lot of wonderful roleplays/stories/immersions to witness and sometimes partake". We do not always need plots and Dungeon Masters for that, just a bit of kindness and imagination! And please, I beg you, do not forget to thank and support others for what they give, whether they are players, dungeon masters, technical support, or anything you want. The tiniest contibution helps make this server great.[/color][/font]

100% this.

I would say maybe about 84% this.

I always appreciate a good, 'glass is half full' argument. I enjoy this game. I get an interesting social creative outlet. I try to appreciate all the work people put into creating this world (I admit, I may not do it enough). But this being a forum I feel its a free place to voice concerns and issues about the empty half.

The DM's have limited time and generally want to focus on their own ideas. Conflict creates Drama so they are not encouraged to support players trying to create conflict or adversity.
Most of us here want some sort of conflict. Fantasy is based on the struggle between good and evil. What is the point of a story if there is nothing to overcome?
There should be ways where conflict can be created among players with minimal DM supervision because there is not enough conflict right now. Im bored, tbh.

One solution was to allow us players that like playing the antagonist the option to volunteer to help the DMs with the DM's story.
This is great - and a lot of fun. I totally recommend it. It is very exciting and challenging. (Glass half full)
But only the DM's are getting to see their vision come to light. It is not my story, as I am only playing a part in the DM's story. I would still not be creating my own adversarial barriers that other players are encouraged to try and overcome. (Glass half empty).

Player drama = stricter rules.
Stricter rules = dms spending time on bureaucracy
More bureaucracy = Restricted RP opportunities (especially for specific play styles .)
Restricted RP = Less players

So the balance becomes:
Player drama = less players.
vs
Restricted RP = Less players.

The balance question: How to minimize Drama without restricting RP too much.

I like the idea of players volunteering to be assistants to DM's in their events. The DM includes a player in the advancement of their story. The player gets to be a antagonist.

One suggestion would be to allow more often the visions of the player antagonistic goals. Let the player be the assistant in his/her own story. The player suggests to the DM's a scheme- instead of using the DM own scheme. The player and the dm then work together to create an event. A DM event that the player creates in stead of the DM.

You could make it fairer by including more people. Make it a Group/Guild/Faction event instead of an individual thing. It will include more people, encourage Faction building most importantly allow antagonist players to express themselves and cause player lead conflict. This being done under DM supervision.
The group would be responsible for the actions of the individuals. The DM would generally sanction the group for any infractions instead of the individuals players.

For this to work the DM's may have to sacrifice their own plot a little bit for the Players. Or at least merge them. Invite Team evil to be a part of the DM events. Instead of just creating NPC's.