Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2021)

[Wildsheep]

From what I gather there's no need to take able learner either to get this feat to work. I'm a little annoyed because I'll have to RCR my cleric yet again because why wouldn't I take 30 UMD at the cost of a single feat for stuff like bigby scrolls?
It's the biggest power up a feat could give to a class without access to UMD who doesn't want to lose turn undead progression to make Divine Spellpower work properly.
Although it will make confrontations a bit awkward as everyone will be able to cast 9 level scrolls

[YYA]

A paladin/divine seeker/nwn9/maa feinter cosmo bluffer approaches u. Wyd?

Is that a Paladin 4/Divine Seeker 5/Bodygyard 3/Man-at-Arms 18 -- or -- a Crusader (Paladin Kit) 18/Divine Seeker 5/Bodyguard 3/Man-at-Arms 4? (Both have gone for the Epic Divine Might, I presume.)

Well, I would probably just Feint back with a Fighter 12/Divine Seeker 4/Blackguard 4/Ghost-Faced-Killer 10.

[DaloLorn]

A paladin/divine seeker/nwn9/maa feinter cosmo bluffer approaches u. Wyd?

Is that a Paladin 4/Divine Seeker 5/Bodygyard 3/Man-at-Arms 18 -- or -- a Crusader (Paladin Kit) 18/Divine Seeker 5/Bodyguard 3/Man-at-Arms 4? (Both have gone for the Epic Divine Might, I presume.)

Well, I would probably just Feint back with a Fighter 12/Divine Seeker 4/Blackguard 4/Ghost-Faced-Killer 10.

Pffft. My Rogue20/TA5/GT5 would just insta-HitS instead.

[ValerieJean]

There are hundreds of powerbuilds that do have access to these skills for free, in addition to some other juicy stuff from dips. Personally, I'd almost never waste a feat on UMD (12 is enough). Tumble or Heal, yes, but it's nothing OP. The idea that maxing Spot via cosmo will somehow break the game, is rather funny to me.

As already mentioned, there is nothing possible through these additions that isn't already possible through strategic multiclassing and class dipping. Doesn't 80% of characters having a 3 level rogue dip also devalue rogue?

These skills are not "For Free" you have to take another class, DIP or otherwise, to access certain things or a Feat to aid in the cross skill issue like Able Learner. There was a give and take you sacrificed something be it a couple feats or skill points to gain access to what you wanted. Not just one single feat and now you gain full capacity of a skill.

Yeah, because a 30 Fighter PC with 30 Tumble is much more dangerous than a 26 Fighter/4 Rogue...

First I agree with Sva on his points especially about Druids, and Monks lord knows even Druid/Monks who will now have UMD without a deficit but a single feat. Second, Fighters have access to Heavy Armor, you cannot tumble in Heavy Armor, like you may with Light Armor/None. This is why someone may DIP into Rogue or something to "Learn how to tumble in heavy" or they take the hit of the cross class skill to get what points you can. You can still Tumble you just cannot at full effect as other classes who can only wear light/no armor unless they take a feat (able learner)/have another class. Same with fighter, take a feat(able learner)/have another class to do so. With access to Cosmo now, well now you do not lose much of any skill points as you might have with Able Learner, now you just take Cosmo Tumble (Or any other Skill), shove your available 30sp into it with no takeaway and move on with your day, with no draw back except one feat. That's it.

From what I gather there's no need to take able learner either to get this feat to work. I'm a little annoyed because I'll have to RCR my cleric yet again because why wouldn't I take 30 UMD at the cost of a single feat for stuff like bigby scrolls?
It's the biggest power up a feat could give to a class without access to UMD who doesn't want to lose turn undead progression to make Divine Spellpower work properly.
Although it will make confrontations a bit awkward as everyone will be able to cast 9 level scrolls

Able Learner would still have it's use but you are correct, if you only want the one skill well I'll just grab this Cosmo feat instead of Able Learner and now I have Full UMD on the Divine Caster, with access to Arcane/Druid spells now. Oh yes good chance of dispel if you use the arcane/druid protections but that's not the whole reason. It is, as stated, also the Bigsby's and every other spell known to man that could not be so easily accessed before.

The big problem i also have with this is playing spies relying on hide,move silently build will be rendered useless if everyone can max spot + clairvoyance wands + greater heroism potions.

Just with that 30 + greater elixir 6 + 10 = Base 46 on... everyone wishing it... so i would need at least 66 point in hide to be efficient? Peobably more since htose with equipment will bust 80's skill point?

Will discourage any stealth concept to even RP being competent without godly equipment?

It changes ALOT of possible concepts.


I think it will refrain so many aspect of RP in many mechanical game hindrance?
Again.... guess i am just used to suck anyway in builds and accepting it but still... i still think the exceptions made before hand should be respected to avoid even more game breaking builds. But that's me.

Some may Argue Stats aren't what makes RP.... but opening such a pandora's will make the server look more like a grindfest than it's RP original purpose?
Again...

We'll see... I foresee alot of monstrous builds emerging up.

Exactly, at least now my Paladins/Clerics can have spot without needing to take another class to gain it


I may not be on QC/Staff but as a player on this Server and I do focus on the RP side, this implement is not a good one. Please place those skills that were spoken of to not be on the list of available back to that.

That being said, I would propose that the 100% RCR limit gets extended for another week or two, since I think I need to rebuild a few characters with the recent additions and the time I am given.

Also yes please.

[Xorena]

I am OK with pure RP skills being on this list, as was the original intent of the change.

However, skills that benefit your character mechanically should not.

Yes, it's not difficult to get Tumble/Bluff/UMD or whatever if you build creatively. If that is your reasoning then why add these at all? Those builds require a sacrifice of multiclass penalty or losing CL or taking more feats you otherwise would not.

This feels like a bait and switch. I don't like it. This pushes the server much closer to an MMO mentality. Now everyone is going to be a money wizard.

[ValerieJean]

I am OK with pure RP skills being on this list, as was the original intent of the change.

However, skills that benefit your character mechanically should not.

Yes, it's not difficult to get Tumble/Bluff/UMD or whatever if you build creatively. If that is your reasoning then why add these at all? Those builds require a sacrifice of multiclass penalty or losing CL or taking more feats you otherwise would not.

This feels like a bait and switch. I don't like it. This pushes the server much closer to an MMO mentality. Now everyone is going to be a money wizard.

+1

[Steve]

Yes, is this change IG yet?

Also, can a Fighter take these Feats on a Fighter Feat level up, just like Rogue is supposed to allow?

[mrm3ntalist]

Also, can a Fighter take these Feats on a Fighter Feat level up, just like Rogue is supposed to allow?

I hope not...

[Rhifox]

Self-Concealment is not on the fighter bonus feat list.

[YYA]

Self-Concealment is not on the fighter bonus feat list.

But are those on the Epic Fighter Bonus feat list? I have no level 30 character to RCR to try out, but it should be since Fighter 22, 24, 26, 28, and 30 should let you pick any feat you qualify for.

[DM Gixustrat]

I am OK with pure RP skills being on this list, as was the original intent of the change.

However, skills that benefit your character mechanically should not.

Yes, it's not difficult to get Tumble/Bluff/UMD or whatever if you build creatively. If that is your reasoning then why add these at all? Those builds require a sacrifice of multiclass penalty or losing CL or taking more feats you otherwise would not.

This feels like a bait and switch. I don't like it. This pushes the server much closer to an MMO mentality. Now everyone is going to be a money wizard.

+1

Personally I’m of a similar mind. This isn’t an mmo and no not all classes should be balanced and equal. Dnd is not meant to be configured in that manner.

[Rhifox]

Self-Concealment is not on the fighter bonus feat list.

But are those on the Epic Fighter Bonus feat list? I have no level 30 character to RCR to try out, but it should be since Fighter 22, 24, 26, 28, and 30 should let you pick any feat you qualify for.

If epic fighter bonus feats are any feat, rather than the fighter bonus feat list, then I presume it would be available.

[Yugo]

100% agree, the feel of a MMO over RP with these change is what i think will be encouraged. The restricted list of skills should be uphold for a better rp experience instead of opening a pandora's box that cannot be closed.

It will derail the server from it's original purpose in the long run i think.
Why have sacrifices and originality now, right?

[YYA]

I am OK with pure RP skills being on this list, as was the original intent of the change.

However, skills that benefit your character mechanically should not.

Yes, it's not difficult to get Tumble/Bluff/UMD or whatever if you build creatively. If that is your reasoning then why add these at all? Those builds require a sacrifice of multiclass penalty or losing CL or taking more feats you otherwise would not.

This feels like a bait and switch. I don't like it. This pushes the server much closer to an MMO mentality. Now everyone is going to be a money wizard.

+1

Personally I’m of a similar mind. This isn’t an mmo and no not all classes should be balanced and equal. Dnd is not meant to be configured in that manner.

And here I am with utterly opposite opinion on this matter, it is a great boon to role-play, because there are some players who just feel that they need to have access to certain skills, and the Extra Skill feat is a lovely way to avoid those awkwards dips into base or PRC classes.

I mean I do remember one ancient Paladin/Rogue on this server who had those Rogue levels just to be able to use 'Raise Dead' scrolls on any corpse he encountered. (Before those scrolls were changed so that anyone could use them, with or without UMD.) And when it comes to the large number of Dwarven Defenders this server has seen, some took that three or so level Rogue dip just to have access to either Tumble or UMD, and very rarely did that Rogue dip manifest itself in actual role-play of these Dwarven characters, as it was simply something done for nothing but mechanical reasons or outright necessity. And when Shadowdancer got its 19 Dexterity requirement, well, all those Fighter/Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Master/Shadowdancers became Fighter/Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Master/Rogues overnight -- instead of getting HiPS as anti-mage PvP tool and tumble for extra AC -- they still retained access to Tumble, with 2d6 Sneak Attack dice whenever they flanked in a party, ability to disarm all traps above DC of 20, and access to UMD skill which gave them wands of mantles that required far less skill than timing the use of HiPS... And I do remember how the actual "Rogue" players were rather unhappy that some "FRENZIED BERSERKER" performed their entire role in a party. Some players even felt that there was no need to party up with a Rogue, because the Rogue would slowly skulk around, while the "FRENZIED BERSERKERS" just ran to the next enemy, disarmed the trap on the chest, opened the lock, and it was all said and done before the "Rogue" had even a chance to react. This is probably one of the reason why "Rogue" players even today consider stealth as their one and only bread and butter on this server. Why they are so quick to jump up against 'Extra Skill: Spot, Listen, and whatever else.'

But if we are entirely honest, the players who want that maximized Spot skill will have that maximized Spot skill no matter what. A wisdom based Rogue 3/Cleric 7/Darkfire Disciple 10/Hierophant 10 with base Caster level of 32 and maximized Spot is already more than possible on this server -- and you can have one WITHOUT a feat spent on Able Learner. Oh, and thanks to summons it can land those flanking Sneak Attacks without a need to form a party, which is why it is a build that can do very well in PvE, and it is even when you do not optimize the AC for thigns like 'Role-Play' reasons.

Thus, I am not really worried about some Cleric getting Spot as a class skill through and Extra Skill feat, because if the player is so inclined, the Cleric character in question would have always had access to it. I mean, I have probably made far more Cleric/Rogues than anyone else on this server... And what I am saying is this, the number of players is finite, and even if someone does nothing but create characters with Spot builds, they can still only play one character at a time.

And generally speaking, a feat spent on Able Learner can net the player character with the following cross class skill ranks: Tumble 10, Spellcraft 10, Open Lock 13. That is +1 AC, +2 saves against spells, and most of the locks opened with just a set of Thieves Tools and a d20 roll for extra experience points. Or they can take the Extra Skill Feat, and get +3 AC, +6 saves against spells, or open every lock they encounter without Thieves Tools. If they want all three skills, it will either cost a total of Three feats, which is only really feasible as a Fighter or a Ranger, or they just take a three level dip into Rogue, or some other class with the Able Learner feat, and probably gain a plethora of other mechanical benefits.

The Extra Skill Feats are literally Role-Play feats, and it is far easier to come up with an explanation why a character has trained himself in particular skill, rather than it is to explain why a character has a more or less random three level dip of some class for no other reason than mechanical advantage.

[Wildsheep]

+1

Personally I’m of a similar mind. This isn’t an mmo and no not all classes should be balanced and equal. Dnd is not meant to be configured in that manner.

And here I am with utterly opposite opinion on this matter, it is a great boon to role-play, because there are some players who just feel that they need to have access to certain skills, and the Extra Skill feat is a lovely way to avoid those awkwards dips into base or PRC classes.

I mean I do remember one ancient Paladin/Rogue on this server who had those Rogue levels just to be able to use 'Raise Dead' scrolls on any corpse he encountered. (Before those scrolls were changed so that anyone could use them, with or without UMD.) And when it comes to the large number of Dwarven Defenders this server has seen, some took that three or so level Rogue dip just to have access to either Tumble or UMD, and very rarely did that Rogue dip manifest itself in actual role-play of these Dwarven characters, as it was simply something done for nothing but mechanical reasons or outright necessity. And when Shadowdancer got its 19 Dexterity requirement, well, all those Fighter/Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Master/Shadowdancers became Fighter/Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Master/Rogues overnight -- instead of getting HiPS as anti-mage PvP tool and tumble for extra AC -- they still retained access to Tumble, with 2d6 Sneak Attack dice whenever they flanked in a party, ability to disarm all traps above DC of 20, and access to UMD skill which gave them wands of mantles that required far less skill than timing the use of HiPS... And I do remember how the actual "Rogue" players were rather unhappy that some "FRENZIED BERSERKER" performed their entire role in a party. Some players even felt that there was no need to party up with a Rogue, because the Rogue would slowly skulk around, while the "FRENZIED BERSERKERS" just ran to the next enemy, disarmed the trap on the chest, opened the lock, and it was all said and done before the "Rogue" had even a chance to react. This is probably one of the reason why "Rogue" players even today consider stealth as their one and only bread and butter on this server. Why they are so quick to jump up against 'Extra Skill: Spot, Listen, and whatever else.'

But if we are entirely honest, the players who want that maximized Spot skill will have that maximized Spot skill no matter what. A wisdom based Rogue 3/Cleric 7/Darkfire Disciple 10/Hierophant 10 with base Caster level of 32 and maximized Spot is already more than possible on this server -- and you can have one WITHOUT a feat spent on Able Learner. Oh, and thanks to summons it can land those flanking Sneak Attacks without a need to form a party, which is why it is a build that can do very well in PvE, and it is even when you do not optimize the AC for thigns like 'Role-Play' reasons.

Thus, I am not really worried about some Cleric getting Spot as a class skill through and Extra Skill feat, because if the player is so inclined, the Cleric character in question would have always had access to it. I mean, I have probably made far more Cleric/Rogues than anyone else on this server... And what I am saying is this, the number of players is finite, and even if someone does nothing but create characters with Spot builds, they can still only play one character at a time.

And generally speaking, a feat spent on Able Learner can net the player character with the following cross class skill ranks: Tumble 10, Spellcraft 10, Open Lock 13. That is +1 AC, +2 saves against spells, and most of the locks opened with just a set of Thieves Tools and a d20 roll for extra experience points. Or they can take the Extra Skill Feat, and get +3 AC, +6 saves against spells, or open every lock they encounter without Thieves Tools. If they want all three skills, it will either cost a total of Three feats, which is only really feasible as a Fighter or a Ranger, or they just take a three level dip into Rogue, or some other class with the Able Learner feat, and probably gain a plethora of other mechanical benefits.

The Extra Skill Feats are literally Role-Play feats, and it is far easier to come up with an explanation why a character has trained himself in particular skill, rather than it is to explain why a character has a more or less random three level dip of some class for no other reason than mechanical advantage.

I respectfully disagree with your opinion
I don't think maxed out spot and being able to cast 9th level spells from scrolls becoming common thing is good for the server as a whole.