Going to Leave the Evil to the DMs

[Wyatt]

Please keep the discussion respectful while conveying your point. There is a lot of good information in this thread that the staff can use but if it turns into attacks back and forth it will end up dying the tragic death so many of these discussions end up dying.

Wyatt

[hksturbo]

I've seen coven of darkness and theives guild memebers chased away . I've seen ril and half orckin attacking anyone saying there evil at the fai . It happens alot evil groups are not all that welcome there in the open unless you are a zhent . I've seen many non associated evil toons either killed or forced to leave from the Eldar circle at the fai . It does happen and more than it should. I would like to see areas that are common be more welcome to all I'm not saying open devil worship but not having regular access to areas during peak rp times certainly hurts things like evil rp in my opinion

[Vesgar]

Interesting, I didn't really experience that. I've even seen a gray orc at FAI being protected by a goody two shoes against other good characters because racism is bad.

Alright, that was kinda extreme, but really a thieves guild member openly admitting that he/she is a member of a group of notorious thieves and expect warm welcome in return? To be honest in taverns and inns fighting should be the normal until the guards come in to end them. Of course not with weapons and magic, but a good old fist fight wouldn't hurt every now and then. :d

I don't really know what kind of evil rp are you talking about that's not allowed around places like FAI. There were times when my greedy, kinda racist character made fun of dwarves and other little folk in FAI and I even got other characters like elves and other known not-so-evil characters join in. It was fun till a dwarf came and I had to shy away, because I prefered to keep my teeth.

If you wanna gloat about burning down churches and orphanages then yeah, common places aren't really for you.

[Steve]

A question for all those interested in creating a superleague of doom: Do you guys even consider the other part of the alignment of your characters? Or is having evil on their character sheet enough to try and group everyone together? Why don't you ever try or demand to group characters on the law/chaos axis? It's just as important as the good/evil one. I take the lawful on my character sheet and in my character's concept just as seriously as the evil part. Is it because it's a laughably stupid idea which would group paladins and lawful evil tyrants together? Yeah, let's consider that premise for a moment, and apply it to the good evil axis. Then let's throw in churches, deities and character concepts/motivations into the mix.

A take this a non-rhetorical questions? So, I'll take a evil-at-heart stab at them!

Of course we guys consider the other part of the alignment. Don't YOU think that, being of the Lawful Evil type, the lawful bit would ACTUALLY allow for the foundation of morality in order to "give your word" to fight alongside another bastard or bandit, in order to attain mutually evil goals? How the hellz do you think the Zhentarim or the Thayans stay unified, themselves? It is the structure of Law within those umbrella organizations and ideologies that keep the soldiers in line.

Not to mention a healthy dose of Fear, and top down angst. By why should I, a player, on BGTSCC, bother with RPing fear of the Dreadlord, or the Kharzak, in or out of the Guild, when I know there are absolutely no consequences that my PC really needs to "take into account," at the end of day? There is still a question about what Evil RP truly can accomplish (and to that extend, Good RP...but this IS an Evil topic), when Evil Acts can only be made with "permission"—Evil PCs need permission to attack PCs—which is okay because we agree we shouldn't enforce RP upon another without it—but also need permission just to attack/violate NPCs. Permission is very different than getting a DC check for success. Getting permission implies that someone, somewhere, is going to make a decision OOC about whether your RP action is valid, or not. This can often lead to favoritism, or at least, perceived favoritism, which is almost as bad and is an evil virus all its own!! This is what I mean, when I say the current and past paradigm has worked toward undermining the value and consequence of playing Evil, and even, playing Good. You can add on Lawful or Chaotic values/morality to that, and it just gets even worse, mate.

I have, many many many times, used the Lawful tag on my Character's Sheet, to instill a sense of "all must be done by a contract," in order to hold the Character, and others, to their word. But again, there is nothing, no consequences, for breaking words, or backstabbing (and getting caught), or even BEING faithful. Not that I've experienced. It probably does happen in valuable ways to RP, but not for me. WHICH, again, is why I'm stepping away for trying to make it happen for me and others, because I FAILED at it!!! lol. My stepping away probably should make you happy thids, yes?

There has been so much Evil RP PC playing rp that I've enjoyed, but far more that I have not. Mostly, it is trying to "get things going" with other Players, and seeing that get argued into the dirt because of different agendas and some sort of ego toughness, which, maybe is why we play Evils in the first place?!? You tell me, thids.

I don't feel that this discussion needs me or anyone else laying out the anecdotes that support the disappointment, because yes, probably the majority of these anecdotes will lay upon the DM Team, and the inability for the players of Evil PCs to meet or join the DMs half-way, in Evil RP development (or the DMs to the Players). I know full well that the DMs are in a position to make the environment live, but through their own desires and energy, not mine. That is stated straight up from the get go, so if I as a player don't understand this, I WILL get disappointed at every turn.

From all that I know through the various positions I've held on BGTSCC, one thing that hinders progress from the DM Team and the Evil PC Player team, is the conflict of interest issue. What I mean is: far too many DMs have, while being DMs, have had very prominent good-aligned PCs, and also very active ones. This has meant that those DMs find themselves in a small margin of what they can do, and they can't do, because almost any "move" will seem to favor one interest or another. The only solution that I have found to this—and luckily I am not alone as both Maecius and Charraj have spoken to me about similar thoughts and agreed—is that DMs should not have active PCs while they are DMs.

This does not mean a DM must erase their toon, or kill it off IC, to become a DM. It simply means that, during your tenure as DM—which COULD be on and off, some months on, some months off—you just be a DM. Thus, your current, daily actions—and hopefully a long number of months or year(s) in the DM seat—should and won't conflict with daily/current PC actions.

I truly believe this would free up DMs to be much more open to catering to all sorts of Good/Evil, Chaos/Lawful role-play, as well, to spend more time utilizing NPCs and bringing those Characters to life, for as long as the fun lasts. As well, it could very well allow DMs to be publicly known, like Flasmix is currently, and not have too much animosity—players could hopefully get behind the idea that when a person was being the DM for a time, they were providing a great service and being in a Role, for that time, and to appreciate it...not to feel that secrecy and back-door dealings are the norm and thus, there is always a Player that is working against a bias toward them.

Cheers.

EDIT: I feel it necessary to add that being a DM is a great role to take on the BGTSCC server, and without DMs, in general, the Server would fall apart. What I would wish for is a change to happen in 2 ways: a) more requests/decisions by PCs (thus players) for action(s) are given public DCs and Dice roll chances for success, instead of words-only denials. Giving situations "a chance," even if that DC is calculated to Epic levels, is still a chance. And we all should not argue with the Dice—this is a basic D&D principle; b) DMs use players to spread info and storylines farther and deeper than DMs can along. Give certain players that show interest—like those players that respond to your posts, but often do not get a response!!—something to "run with," so that they can spread that storyline RP around, for everyone to enjoy. This can be little things (a book of lore, or a mysterious object to research, or a pet to care for, etc.) to a big things (an actual event, for that player + friend(s), or a great task by an NPC, etc.). This is, in my opinion, possible to do for any alignment or Character type, and simple gives ALL PLAYERS a great sense of a living environment!!

[Rhifox]

By why should I, a player, on BGTSCC, bother with RPing fear of the Dreadlord, or the Kharzak, in or out of the Guild, when I know there are absolutely no consequences that my PC really needs to "take into account," at the end of day?

Because the only reason those consequences cannot be enforced is because of OOC refusal to accept them. Treat the threats as real threats, and if they are brought upon you accept them, and you will absolutely have a reason to fear. Yeah, a lot of people are always eager to win, and never want to take consequences, and never want to roleplay fear. And if you are the one trying to impose the fear on those people, well yes, you can't if they won't allow it and that sucks. But if the question is why should you RP fear of others, then the reason is because those threats should be real to you.

My character is afraid of the Zhents (and of the paladins and other goodies too, for that matter). Because as far as I am concerned, whatever threat they make can definitely be carried out because I would permit it to be carried out. Because RPing conflict, fear, and consequences is a heck of a lot more fun than not.

[Steve]

But if the question is why should you RP fear of others, then the reason is because those threats should be real to you.

It was a rhetorical question! EDIT: I did not mean in the terms why I, as the Player, or I, as the PC, should do it, because actually, I have taken seriously my PC's rp in treating those beings of established rank and power with some RESPECT, trying to find a way into their relation(s). Not always easy, especially if some take an OOC attitude to the RP (and not that I'm blaming them or faulting them, but if one OOC opinion about RP goes against another OOC opinion about the same RP, then you have the typical "at odds" situation, which kills the RP.).

[Rhifox]

Consider the 'you' a general you in my post. Didn't mean you specifically, sorry if it came across that way!

[thids]

Of course we guys consider the other part of the alignment. Don't YOU think that, being of the Lawful Evil type, the lawful bit would ACTUALLY allow for the foundation of morality in order to "give your word" to fight alongside another bastard or bandit, in order to attain mutually evil goals? How the hellz do you think the Zhentarim or the Thayans stay unified, themselves? It is the structure of Law within those umbrella organizations and ideologies that keep the soldiers in line.

Yes... my character is already a part of the largest and most widespread evil organization on the face of Faerun? Exactly. Zhents hire adventurers and mercenaries to do their bidding. Now read that again, the last part in particular. To do their bidding.. That has absolutely nothing to do with ooc ego or playing the "tough guy", in fact if one comes with an adventurer to the Zhentarim and expects to be on the same footing as an organization of that proportions... Ask yourself, who is having OOC ego problems in that situation? This is why I told you in my first post in this thread that I get the sense that you want to play the chief, and detest the idea of playing the indian. Am I expecting everyone to RP and approach the Zhents with the above in mind? Hell no, I know people have OOC issues with it and I'm perfectly fine with that. I am happy in the sandbox which I share with other Zhents, those who want to share in the RP and can behave, are always invited in. You wanna RP an adventuring group hired by the Zhents? Great, let's talk. You wanna RP a mercenary who does Zhentarim wetwork? Awesome, characters like that are perfect to eventually end up holding a seat at the Dreadlord's table. You wanna be an OOCly defiant ass, who desires nothing more than to be a disruptive presence to the RP? Feel free to do so, but don't expect me to invest my own time into interacting with you. It's an extreme case, but you understand what I mean I hope? On a "medium RP server", I get to determine my own RP boundaries as long as they are within the rules of the server, which are very loose when it comes to RP. I get called an elitist for doing so, but to that I'll just loosely quote Deathgrowl: "Thanks, that's high praise." You asked below why you should RP fear of the Zhentarim or the Dreadlord or the Khazark or anyone for that matter? Well, here is something for you to consider: No one is forcing you or expecting it of you. You need to create and maintain your own immersion on this server.

I have, many many many times, used the Lawful tag on my Character's Sheet, to instill a sense of "all must be done by a contract," in order to hold the Character, and others, to their word. But again, there is nothing, no consequences, for breaking words, or backstabbing (and getting caught), or even BEING faithful. Not that I've experienced. It probably does happen in valuable ways to RP, but not for me. WHICH, again, is why I'm stepping away for trying to make it happen for me and others, because I FAILED at it!!! lol. My stepping away probably should make you happy thids, yes?

No, why would I be happy? Or sad for that matter? I didn't RP with you much, nor interact with you. And your evil RP attempts didn't reach my RP world except back last year when you thought that your approaches were being rejected due to some OOC things, which was not true.

There has been so much Evil RP PC playing rp that I've enjoyed, but far more that I have not. Mostly, it is trying to "get things going" with other Players, and seeing that get argued into the dirt because of different agendas and some sort of ego toughness, which, maybe is why we play Evils in the first place?!? You tell me, thids

No, I know exactly why I play evil characters and ego has absolutely nothing to do with it. If I want to be egoistical, I can do so just as easily on a myriad of good and neutral character concepts.

[Tekill]

Some people just are not aware of how full of themselves they are....as Thids said, alignment is irrelevant in regards to this.
But let's keep this thread on topic...it's interesting.
No fear of the black hats. Solutions?

[Hawke]

Aaaaannnnnnddddd CLOSED.

Really was hoping this would keep going.