Character Death (MvP & PvP/CvC)

[Steve]

Visual Commentary

Hey ol' buddy ol' pal...I fixed it for you....



As for the others with little constructive criticism: I'm not trying to control peoples' characters...I'm simply trying to CONTROL LIFE & DEATH!

[Moltrazahn]

I like our system as it is.

But I've also played here since 09, so I'm set in that.

I don't have a lot of time to invest in character leveling.
If I spent xxx-amount of hours trying to level a character, invest in RP of a charter... only to have it get perma-killed of for X-reason.
Meh, I'd not think the investment worth it.

That's a risk of playing DND via Roll20 or such. But at least then, you always have the group to return to with a new character. And it's a much different feel than it is in a game.

Even Darksoul's don't perma-kill your character. And that's saying something.

Yes, some games have difficulties that delete you save file if you die.
I ain't got time for that! - I got 2 cats, a fulltime job and a wife.

So, with all due respect to the ones who'd want something like this... well, you got it. 3 DM strikes and your character is dead.
Granted, it does not happen a lot... ever.
But the question then is more on how the staff wants to address perma-death or perma-strikes.

The server was not built on permanent death being a feature.
It's been like this for around 10 years.
I honestly do not think it will be a feature.

[SoThereIWas]

Steve,

If you want this to be heard, send it to the HDMs.

If suggestions are placed out publicly like this, it's only a mess.

It's why i only place suggestions to Admins or others in charge of a specific area in PMs.

I refuse to do it in a public place for all to see and witness all the whining and risk potential highjacked threads. As i do not have time to bother with others who will receive suggestions in a ill way.

Nor do i have time to defend my stance from nah sayers who feel they would be affected when it's not their place to decide to begin with.

[Steve]

@SoThereIWas:

I hear you, mate. I have never been shy to send up my thoughts to the HDMs when that was the best avenue.

But the HDMs are just as skilled as ignoring my PMs as they are in ignoring my public posts!

At least this way, by presenting alternate ideologies on how the Game is experienced to the Community, one can either sink or swim, in terms of the Community support behind any change, be it minimal or paradigm epic level.

[c2k]

This is just one of those recurring suggestions that has been posted since the dawn of the server. Being such, its too late to even consider changing the way character death is handled here because the server is pretty much set in its ways. By now it is probably hard to do any meaningfuil change without upsetting a good portion of the server.

The best thing you could do is start a list, like the "I love PvP" club from back in the early days of the server and see who wants to play the way you vision. Play this mode of gameplay with those people.

[Balthomer]

Bad idea

Been said many times before, maybe start a club or something or a new server, anything that affects the server affects players.

You can permakill your chars and have a group of people whi care enough about it to do it with you, setting an example of how cool rp is to permakill someone might inspire someone to delete their characters.


I habe permakilled my own chars and it caused a lot of grief and drama, people dont like when you kill a char they enjoy rping with/supporting characters. You sre not only affe ting your story but also other people

[Steve]

Hey Balthomer, how about you learn some Forum Rules, and if you have something to negative to say to me, take it to PMs and expect an equal reply.

Edited by request of Planehopper.

[Fury_US]

Pot and kettle, Steve, given your response here:

Visual Commentary

Hey ol' buddy ol' pal...I fixed it for you....



As for the others with little constructive criticism: I'm not trying to control peoples' characters...I'm simply trying to CONTROL LIFE & DEATH!

As has been stated, the standard of the server isn't going to change- it is up to the players themselves to determine what, if any, consequences of death they want to have, and then RP accordingly. Re-hashing a worn out conversation once (or more) per year on the forums just amounts to little more than trolling, IMO.

[Steve]

I believe that Players have the power to change the Server, if there is indeed a large enough desire. Does the Server serve the Community, or does it just serve itself?

You can disagree all you want with more Consequence regarding Role-play becoming a new standard. Players trying to RP their Characters in the same sandbox yet on opposite ends on the Consequence spectrum, is plain impossible. It always leads to cartoon role-play, which, I'm obviously opposed to.

If you leave consequence as a Player choice, you create a situation where Players start to ignore other Players, even when IG, IC role-play should be bringing them into interaction. I also don't see this as a good thing, or even a thing we should tolerate, such clique-ish behavior.

I also ask you to consider what story is actually being built and experienced when your PC is always involved in conflict, danger and life-threatening events, yet, they are essentially OOC eternal and invincible?

If you don't think there is a problem with this, or you like playing in such a way, you can always just ignore posts like this, really.

[Hoihe]

I believe that Players have the power to change the Server, if there is indeed a large enough desire. Does the Server serve the Community, or does it just serve itself?

You can disagree all you want with more Consequence regarding Role-play becoming a new standard. Players trying to RP their Characters in the same sandbox yet on opposite ends on the Consequence spectrum, is plain impossible. It always leads to cartoon role-play, which, I'm obviously opposed to.

If you leave consequence as a Player choice, you create a situation where Players start to ignore other Players, even when IG, IC role-play should be bringing them into interaction. I also don't see this as a good thing, or even a thing we should tolerate, such clique-ish behavior.

I also ask you to consider what story is actually being built and experienced when your PC is always involved in conflict, danger and life-threatening events, yet, they are essentially OOC eternal and invincible?

If you don't think there is a problem with this, or you like playing in such a way, you can always just ignore posts like this, really.

You cannot ignore posts like this with people in it wanting the ability to have a toggle, that means when someone interacts with their character, they can permakill the other freely.

People are free to permakill their own characters. It's annoying, I've lost characters I loved interacting with due to retirement/permadeath but, meh. However, don't force it on others. And some posts in this thread were begging to be able to wantonly dish out permadeath for "slighting" their character.

[Yumi]

@SoThereIWas:

I hear you, mate. I have never been shy to send up my thoughts to the HDMs when that was the best avenue.

But the HDMs are just as skilled as ignoring my PMs as they are in ignoring my public posts!

At least this way, by presenting alternate ideologies on how the Game is experienced to the Community, one can either sink or swim, in terms of the Community support behind any change, be it minimal or paradigm epic level.

I like your idea Steve. But I think finding the balance between what is acceptable risk and what is too forgiving is pretty hard to do. I totally agree with the concept though; BG is a little too forgiving when it comes to death, and honestly I think it does break the immersion a little.

I'm building a server based on the FR (north coast) and am currently experimenting with the concept of perma-death. I confess I struggled with it for a while but eventually settled on this system:

1) Normal 'deaths' (i.e. via grinding) are perma, basically -- if you die, your dead forever. You will be spawned into a 'limbo' world where you can freely RP. A cleric may then (at great costs) attempt to bring you back via a Revive spell.

2) However, if you are carrying a med-kit and die....Or a party member casts a heal spell on you fast enough; instead you will bleed out (or consume a medi-kit) This is RPed as being 'VEERRRRY' close to death, you will be allowed to respawn nearby -- however you will suffer a perma de-buff which will only be removed via RP and patience. If you aquire three de-buffs, it revers to point 1 (perma death)

3) PVP depending on intent can be treated as a knock-out or fatal. Knock-outs will have no effect and will not give out perma or debuffs.

[c2k]

I don't disagree with Steve's point that death and consequences should have meaning. But this server does serve people who do not want to play that way, just as it serves players that don't want to PvP, or how it serves players that do find fun in the loot/grind. On the other hand, this server also services people who want to RP their characters, build up guilds with like-minded individuals, allow PvP to an extent, and allow the players to play the game the way they want as long as it abides by the rules and doesn't ruin another player's fun. So, you have to work with what server can provide you.

[Yumi]

I never really thought about it that way c2k. I suppose you have a good point. If I wanted to kill off Belthazor nothing is stopping me from doing so. I never really do though cuz of all the work and time it took me to get to that level

I think a lot of people feel that way too, perma death is kinda -retirment- but at the same time I do understand where Steve is coming from, death on this server is pretty empty. I remember watching a level 1 wizard die 4 - 5 times while grinding the zombies in the farmlands, it just doesn't feel right and can ruin RP. On the other hand though, Behtlazor has 'died' at least 15 times during my journey. If BG had a harsher death system all that great RP I've had wouldn't have had time to develop (he would be dead) Are things OK as they are? I don't know, maybe a few more perma-DM-events wouldn't hurt.

[Steve]

they can permakill the other freely.

This will never happen and goes against the Server Rules, which in not advocating to disregard—there should always be RP outs. So perpetuating this as the result or reason behind more consequences and greater value place on Character Death, as well as Character LIFE!!!, is disingenuous and an example of not taking the time to understand the main point of this thread.

There already is a Perma-Death standard on BGTSCC. In my opinion, it should be better utilized, and, if it comes down to Players having to uphold the Standard instead of the Server upholding the Standard, then so be it.

Once again, the goal here is to establish a more consequential role-play that supports Character v Character RP and supports actual challenge to RP and events, reducing and hopefully elimination the He-Man cartoon aspects of never dying and faux acting toward danger, sacrifice and the gravity of stories being built between players, DMs and the Server as an AI entity (which is silly limited, but okay).

So, a club it will be then.

[Hoihe]

they can permakill the other freely.

This will never happen and goes against the Server Rules, which in not advocating to disregard—there should always be RP outs. So perpetuating this as the result or reason behind more consequences and greater value place on Character Death, as well as Character LIFE!!!, is disingenuous and an example of not taking the time to understand the main point of this thread.

There already is a Perma-Death standard on BGTSCC. In my opinion, it should be better utilized, and, if it comes down to Players having to uphold the Standard instead of the Server upholding the Standard, then so be it.

Once again, the goal here is to establish a more consequential role-play that supports Character v Character RP and supports actual challenge to RP and events, reducing and hopefully elimination the He-Man cartoon aspects of never dying and faux acting toward danger, sacrifice and the gravity of stories being built between players, DMs and the Server as an AI entity (which is silly limited, but okay).

So, a club it will be then.

I really like both of those suggestions. Maybe as well if we had the option of a "permadeath" toggle or something similar to indicate that your character is willing to inflict permadeath on other characters (and also accept being permadeathed in turn). That way players who wont' accept permadeath will know not to antagonise the tagged characters to the point that they might become mortal enemies.

"If you interact with my character, you consent to being permakilled on my own terms based on what I believe will or will not offend my character."


You can permakill your own PC. Don't demand the ability to do the same to others. As for faux acting towards danger. Knowing ICly that death isn't permanent and easily resolved is metagaming. Deal with it as metagaming, rather than robbing people of their enjoyment.