BGTSCC's RP Environment - A Discussion

[Wolfrayne]

I mean with the time of troubles coming along quickly it wouldn't be a bad time to nuke the server back to 0 and implement some radical changes no? It feels like there are more people who would want to see things reset and the power level dropped than those who want to hold on to their characters as unkillable gods of BG.

Regardless of what happens i think what needs to change most of all is the attitude of the people who play here. Including myself, i too often find myself having a very cynical view on the server and the way things are, probably because i have been here soo long and while there has been some amazing changes to content and classes etc the general mindset of the people playing here for the most part has not changed.

I think some of us need to learn to let go of our ego a little and accept that we cant have our cake and eat it too. Compromise is the only way things are going to change.

[Rain]

A BG, Fresh Start? That would be something. I have no idea how that would go with the entire server considering the majority would need to vote for it and have a majority vote yes.

But I believe alot of people including myself wouldn't want the wipe atleast not anytime soon because of the work they put in to getting where they are and where they want to be in the server now.

[edmaster]

Realistically. I don’t see time of troubles happening on this server. The amount of work needed to radically change things to fit the changes would be too much for both builders and DMs alike, realistically speaking. Server wipes in this servers age isn’t feasible either.

[Ghost]

@Ghost and @Sparty:

Why isn’t posting in the Role-play section of the Forum enough? Why isn’t posting in Guild/Faction sections—like the Ducal Court faction—enough to “get DMs attention?

We have access to 72 different individual guild forums. Not all of them are active, admittedly, but it's a lot of guilds to look at.

You've been a DM before, Steve. Think of it this way: If you're running one of those massive events with 20-30 people, it's going to get hard to keep track of all their actions. The ones easiest to keep track of are those that come to you via tells. The forums are similar in this regard, but to an even greater extent. Especially if you start including all the RP threads in the public areas of the forums.

We can so much more easily be able to respond to things that are directly addressed to us. Even that is already taking up a lot of our time, but at least it is managable. Besides, often people want to do things to or with NPCs and that requires approval before the RP is posted (unless it is posted in such a way to have open-ended results - but that tends to be quite short for narratives).

I will say that I absolutely support and respect that recently and right now, the DM Team is dedicated to Player Requests (done in official channel). That’s great news. But I will also say that myself, personally, seeing all my requests over the last year ignored, even after repeated attempts for a response, literally made me stop wanting to RP with DMs overall.

I haven't been here for the last year, Steve, so I can't comment on that amount of time. I have only been here for three months by now. In that time, have you sent in any PMs of RP to the DM team that we have ignored (or may have slipped through the cracks)? If so, I sincerely apologise and hope you will send it in again so I can address it.

Nonetheless, shouldn’t there also be a more indirect, even passive means, for Players to create RP and have DM response, without an OOC channel? I understand and support that if a DM(s) have no interest in the request, either directly or indirectly, it’s just not going to get picked up. But are OOC responses then sent out letting players know to “give up” that RP story, and try for somethings else?

That means we have to keep track of what everyone is doing everywhere at all times, otherwise how would we be able to respond to their RP? You blend into the crowd unless you shoot up a flare to be noticed.

And again, I feel really disheartened by the continued charge that we aren't responding at all, when that is 90% of what I have been doing since I returned to the DM team in May.

Community: We get a lot of PMs, and we are only human. Sometimes PMs slip through the cracks and I am very sorry for that happening. If you don't get a response, don't feel bad about poking us, bumping the request. We will not think you are nagging for it, so please don't feel like you are nagging.

[DM SummerBreeze]

This might be a bit rambly because I am a bit tired here.

As much as I know Alexanders heart is in the right place ( <3 ), we've actually tried a few of those bits and pieces way back when 10 years ago or so and some of them didn't work out.

I would especially point to the one about DM's being forced to hang up their characters and only DM. Most of us barely play our characters as it, so to think that we have a horse in the race definitely isn't true for pretty much the majority of us. But restricting them to only dealing with DM things would absolutely not be fair at all. Sometimes we need down-time, even if its just to log on and go for a dungeon run. I myself retired all my focal PC's an only play totally unknown characters these days, on the very very rare times I even get to log in as a player.

As it stands, we already don't get very many DM applications, and many DM's burn out very fast, many applicants even take back their applications because they don't want to sacrifice their player time. Making a move like this would all but ensure that even less people ever apply to DM.

Removing DM anonymity also seems like a great idea until DM's begin to get harassed playerside or yelled at for playing favourites because one of us happens to have RP'd with someone who is involved in one of our events, or someone just simply didn't like that X player did Y thing and they didn't get something similar. This becomes very unfun very quickly. I can promise that there really is no "favouritism" going on, so much as those that are on and RP a lot in game and on the forums, then also send us requests AND followups tend to naturally be the ones who will end up more involved because they simply land on our radar easier. There are also a lot of misconcenptions and "false positives" when it comes to those pointing fingers at other players and crying favouritism. Many of the people certain players are pointing fingers at are also the people who try the hardest to include other people in events or push a lot of play for many other players.

Honestly, with threads like this I also have to side with Ghost. Reading things like this just ragging on the DM team is pretty disheartening and demoralizing. It seems threads like this pop up once and a while and while they originally mean well and have a good purpose, they always end up the same way: pointing a bunch of fingers at the DM team and expecting more and more and more without any real offers to help make that happen, or any new DM applicants or anything of the sort. So in the end it really doesn't often end up being very useful, and only ends up demoralizing the DM team even further than it already is lately.

Once again, I ask: Please consider the humans behind the DM faces and your fellow players who you think are "favourites". Maybe start engaging in RP instead of complaining and finger-pointing. It likely will get you where you want to go much faster and generally make the game more fun for yourself and those around you. If you start up some RP and really want to get it ramped up, good or evil, send in a request. We don't intentionally ignore things, but as ghost said, we get A LOT of PM's, and our PM system is not great overall, things falling through the cracks happens but it isn't intentional. Ghost as he says above, works extremely hard on player requests and that should be celebrated in my opinion. I wish that I could get this across better, and I apologize that things sometimes get dropped, but nobody, and no system, is perfect.


I want to also point out that the decisions made on the server, such as power creep, leveling, balance, classes, new feats and other such mechanical things that I see complained about in this thread are not the realm of the DM team. In fact, we have essentially no say what so ever these days when it comes to these things and are not really even welcome at the table for these discussions as far as my own experience goes. So take that information as you will as well.

<3

[Steve]

You've been a DM before, Steve.

And the HDM!

…without any real offers to help make that happen, or any new DM applicants or anything of the sort.

Unfortunately, that isn’t entirely true. The DM Team rejects certain Players. I don’t know how often, but I know it’s enough that saying “there aren’t enough DMs” is a result of a conscious choice, not an objective lack.

In case it hasn’t been said, and just like the Server itself in general, the DM Team has its up swings and down swings. The Server and the DM Team have A LOT of history, mostly good but some bad as well. And the bad isn’t just “things a player(s) doesn’t like” but actual mistakes and detrimental decisions.

But we are all Human, yes? I would never uphold a DM to some personal perfect standard. DMing should be fun, it should be inclusive, it should be a partnership. But how can that be when a small set rejects another set?

Like I wrote in my earlier earlier post, if we want BGTSCC to be more RP than MMO Server, then RP should be rewarded MORE than MMO-esque gaming. Right now, the mechanics and the environment provide greater, immediate rewards to players via grinding mobs (better XP gain than RP and events), grinding lootz (better gear than RP or events), min/max power building (to achieve the previous faster and to “always succeed” in both the grinds and CvC).

I’m willing to hear arguments contrary to this, because probably like so many others, I wish it wasn’t true, wasn’t the paradigm.

Yes, I’m not currently asking anything of the DM Team cause I got burned by having my requests and my Chracters’ RP fall on def ears over the last years (and not all current DMs have anything to do with that, but some do!).

I absolutely want to be delivering accolades, flowers, chocolates, beer and puppies under Christmas trees to the DM(s). I think all players want to have a rich, healthy and fruitful AND fun relationship with the DM Team, forwarding storylines generated from both sides. I’ve HAD this experience, albeit in the past, on BGTSCC from both sides of the veil.

But what I’ve learned is that in the past, the “veil” was thinner, and with a thicker veil IT IS SIMPLY MORE DIFFICULT to have compassion for each other. Over time, the division between player side and staff side has gotten wider and deeper, and I would bet my money on players feeling less empowered now than a few years ago.

And THIS is why the Server veers more MMO, because we find ourselves less like playing a in-person tabletop D&D game via a digital interface, than a anonymous game experience, where it’s less and less rewarding to invest.

That said, all of the community that continues to invest: big COVID-appropriate fist bump!

[DaloLorn]

A few thoughts, most in response to Ghost's post:

• Separation of concerns might help keep track of RP threads. If the team made a point of having every IC thread monitored by at least one DM, the logical choice would be to divide them up, minimize the amount of redundancy involved in the process. Right now, it sounds as though the general consensus is "there's too many threads for any one of us to keep up with (which I agree with!), so we shouldn't bother keeping up with them at all".
  
  For instance, assigning one DM to the Underdark & Upperdark subforums would probably be plenty, even if that one DM was also charged with keeping track of UD factions. Another DM could be assigned to the Baldur's Gate rumor threads, and so on. As long as there was an official understanding that DM So-and-so was taking care of region X, the other DMs would know that it's safe to ignore that region's forum activity.
  
  (To be clear, though: I'm not saying you should force people to DM for a specific region, or restrict them from DMing in any other regions. I'm just saying a little coordination could go a long way towards improving DM coverage.)
• Regarding the comment about blending into the crowd... I thought my rumor posts were flares! (Mind you, they weren't flares aimed specifically at the DMs. Just general-purpose flares for anyone whose characters might care about the rumors.)
• Something occurred to me while reading this whole discussion about what the DMs were or weren't doing. I have a fairly limited dataset to work with, given that I'm typically out of sync with most of the team, but it feels like everything has to be a plot or a player request right now, and it can never go bad in any way that matters. (... Then again, I've been seeing Sparty putting down rumor NPCs all over the Gate. I should try following up on one of those rumors sometime, see what happens. )
  
  For instance, the only times I've ICly interacted with a DM since I came back in July have been:
  • Dae and Ishi getting fined and released from jail by Ink after the latter's crazy half assaulted a guard. That was fun, albeit far less severe than I expected. But it was technically a player request, since I informed Ink of the unusual circumstances surrounding our PCs' arrest.
  • Dae and Ishi getting talked into joining one of Sparty's gnoll events. Part of an ongoing campaign, and we did was stomp on NPCs amidst a smallish group of epics.
  • Ilhara's participation in the conclusion of the Orcus campaign. Most of what we did was run around and stomp on NPCs, and it was definitely a big plot. The bit I liked the most? Easily the part where the strike force was derailed by the yuan-ti dropping boulders on the temple entrance. It was the only time yesterday that they seemed appropriately clever (and desperate), and one of the event's few refreshing departures from "collectively wreck dozens of souped-up NPCs at a time".
    
    (Other neat moments, IMO, were the capture of the yuan-ti negotiators, or the subsequent interrogation at Soubar. I guess I also got a kick out of the attempted assassination of Selengil, but that doesn't count! )
  I mean, I get it. Increasing the amount and potency of NPCs is an easy-to-use, always-accessible item in your toolboxes. Whether they're grinding, RPing, or something in between, people will react to it, and it would be hypocritical of me to say you shouldn't do it. But it shouldn't be an event in and of itself, IMO. Nor should the NPCs always be selected such that the party will easily prevail. (Not that I think Boo had much choice, considering the amount of epic adventurers in yesterday's event.)
  
  Some of my most memorable events, as player or DM alike, were when something just... happened, or when things went wrong and people had to fix it. When Shali's staff burst into flames for no apparent reason. When I overestimated a party's strength, got them all captured by a necromancer as a pseudo-TPK, and they ended up beating up her and each other before escaping alive. When a villain was sent to rescue a party of adventurers stranded on Ulgoth's Island, only to find all of her villainy (including the reason she got sent there) foiled because she overestimated how much she could get away with in front of the elves that joined her. (I'd also have included the time Amaetha got taken hostage by gnolls, if not for the drama that ensued later. Though that's still technically memorable.)
  
  Atmospheric mini-events, or the possibility of defeat, failure, and/or noticeable complications down the road, would go a long way towards enriching the environment, IMO. The mini-events probably wouldn't take as much effort to run, either; I improvised most of mine on the spot, just by checking the player list for clusters of activity and teleporting ahead of the advancing party.

[Rhifox]

I'd like to remind people that the purpose of this is not casting blame on people, but on figuring out actionable solutions going forward to improve the current state of things.

For the most part, though, I think there's been a good selection of responses so far. I'm probably going to have the thread closed now, so we can mull over what's been said and figure how things can be addressed.

[Planehopper]

You've been a DM before, Steve.

And the HDM!

…without any real offers to help make that happen, or any new DM applicants or anything of the sort.

Unfortunately, that isn’t entirely true. The DM Team rejects certain Players. I don’t know how often, but I know it’s enough that saying “there aren’t enough DMs” is a result of a conscious choice, not an objective lack.

In case it hasn’t been said, and just like the Server itself in general, the DM Team has its up swings and down swings. The Server and the DM Team have A LOT of history, mostly good but some bad as well. And the bad isn’t just “things a player(s) doesn’t like” but actual mistakes and detrimental decisions.

But we are all Human, yes? I would never uphold a DM to some personal perfect standard. DMing should be fun, it should be inclusive, it should be a partnership. But how can that be when a small set rejects another set?

Like I wrote in my earlier earlier post, if we want BGTSCC to be more RP than MMO Server, then RP should be rewarded MORE than MMO-esque gaming. Right now, the mechanics and the environment provide greater, immediate rewards to players via grinding mobs (better XP gain than RP and events), grinding lootz (better gear than RP or events), min/max power building (to achieve the previous faster and to “always succeed” in both the grinds and CvC).

I’m willing to hear arguments contrary to this, because probably like so many others, I wish it wasn’t true, wasn’t the paradigm.

Yes, I’m not currently asking anything of the DM Team cause I got burned by having my requests and my Chracters’ RP fall on def ears over the last years (and not all current DMs have anything to do with that, but some do!).

I absolutely want to be delivering accolades, flowers, chocolates, beer and puppies under Christmas trees to the DM(s). I think all players want to have a rich, healthy and fruitful AND fun relationship with the DM Team, forwarding storylines generated from both sides. I’ve HAD this experience, albeit in the past, on BGTSCC from both sides of the veil.

But what I’ve learned is that in the past, the “veil” was thinner, and with a thicker veil IT IS SIMPLY MORE DIFFICULT to have compassion for each other. Over time, the division between player side and staff side has gotten wider and deeper, and I would bet my money on players feeling less empowered now than a few years ago.

And THIS is why the Server veers more MMO, because we find ourselves less like playing a in-person tabletop D&D game via a digital interface, than a anonymous game experience, where it’s less and less rewarding to invest.

That said, all of the community that continues to invest: big COVID-appropriate fist bump!

I generally really hate a +1, but this articulates my feelings very well.

I have been distracted with and busy in RL since this thread and others have been started, and unable to put frustration to words accurately, but all of this rings very real, true, and accurate to my experiences both past and present.

Thanks, Steve.

[DM Spartacus]

Solutions?

some thoughts from the most recent batch

Compromise is the only way things are going to change.

well said always but in rp, yeah it is never going to suit all, and none perfectly. Lottery win aside.

But I believe alot of people including myself wouldn't want the wipe atleast not anytime soon because of the work they put in to getting where they are and where they want to be in the server now.

I think wipe is well discussed previously and agree personally unlikely a solution. But id someone moots it as a solution it would need a pretty big discussion on it's own.

Unfortunately, that isn’t entirely true. The DM Team rejects certain Players. I don’t know how often, but I know it’s enough that saying “there aren’t enough DMs” is a result of a conscious choice, not an objective lack.

well yes unless there is to be 100% acceptance of all DM applications. Is that desired as a solution ? If that is not desired is there a solution other than to have a system?

I think all players want to have a rich, healthy and fruitful AND fun relationship with the DM Team, forwarding storylines generated from both sides. I’ve HAD this experience, albeit in the past, on BGTSCC from both sides of the veil.

I agree, but how is what this was about?

Over time, the division between player side and staff side has gotten wider and deeper, and I would bet my money on players feeling less empowered now than a few years ago.

are you advocating more rp rewards and less grinding rewards ? Do you have any details if so ?

Atmospheric mini-events, or the possibility of defeat, failure, and/or noticeable complications down the road, would go a long way towards enriching the environment, IMO. The mini-events probably wouldn't take as much effort to run, either; I improvised most of mine on the spot, just by checking the player list for clusters of activity and teleporting ahead of the advancing party.

Every DM I know now, and most in the past involve themselves in this idea. So if it is not enough (I only got involved in 10-15 such events in 5 years.too so I don't find it a great area for expansion but it is certainly fun. From a dm perspective often people dont have time or it interferes with grinding so it can be inefficient but a delight too)

Bearing in mind something would need to give to improve the time set aside for such, how would you achieve this?

frustration to words accurately

hmm I think we all have our share of that and particularly with this hobby. Is there a solution defining the

Compromise is the only way things are going to change.

case by case may help.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Unfortunately, that isn’t entirely true. The DM Team rejects certain Players. I don’t know how often, but I know it’s enough that saying “there aren’t enough DMs” is a result of a conscious choice, not an objective lack.

+1 from me as well, saying it as someone who got rejected 7 times!

[gedweyignasia]

It might be a little unfair to complain about the quality of DMs (bias, etc.) and also complain that they reject too many applicants. Regardless, it's not moving this discussion forward. If we want to have a thread on how to improve the server's DM support, that deserves its own thread. (And if anyone is to create one, I recommend treading very lightly and providing the full context of anything you talk about, not just the details that support your narrative.)

[DaloLorn]

It might be a little unfair to complain about the quality of DMs (bias, etc.) and also complain that they reject too many applicants. Regardless, it's not moving this discussion forward. If we want to have a thread on how to improve the server's DM support, that deserves its own thread. (And if anyone is to create one, I recommend treading very lightly and providing the full context of anything you talk about, not just the details that support your narrative.)

Ged's probably got a point. The thread was started by a dev, and while the DMs could be loosely classed as "staff", they weren't the only people Rhifox was asking about (if she was even asking about them at all).

[Shadowspinner70]

Locked at OP's request.

As a message from her, and I think several of our staff members mirror this sentiment: thank you all for your feedback! As we work on ways to improve the server, hopefully we'llbe able to address some concerns raised.