Shield Bash and Inspirations

[Boddynock]

So, I recently picked up shield bash to test out its usefulness with certain builds other than pure fighter types. And it looks like it is a pure waste of a feat if you aren't a full BAB Str build.

I can confirm through my own testing that the only thing I was able to do to boost the AB of the bash was buff my Str. Inspire Courage and Greater Heroism had no affect on the AB or Dmg (in the case of inspire courage).

The text for GH reads that it grants +4 morale bonus to attacks.

The text for Inspire courage reads that it gives a bonus to hit and damage.

There are no special circumstances that have to be met for these bonuses to apply, and yet they are not working on the shield bash.

I took the time to PM the QC team questions about this before I took the feat and got no definitive feedback. So, let's add this to the body of knowledge here.

In addition to the information, is it possible to get this looked into and possibly fixed? I shield bashing gish bard sounds awesome, but isn't really feasible right now. It also lowers the usefulness of these feats in party situations when receiving buffs from others.

Also, is it possible to get a delevel so I can take something useful in the meantime?

[Rasael]

Hi,

It has been forever like this, since I first made it.

You aren't the first to notice it. We haven't gotten around to fixing it.
I remember Hoihe also noticed it. But I won't ramble on about that.

We don't give refunds over this issue (very few that I am aware of) but I understand that you wanted to ask.

Thank you for reporting. It will get fixed some day. That's a promise.

[Theodore01]

It will get fixed some day. That's a promise.

Wow, that's something to look forward to. Thxs

[Karond]

In addition to the information, is it possible to get this looked into and possibly fixed? I shield bashing gish bard sounds awesome, but isn't really feasible right now. It also lowers the usefulness of these feats in party situations when receiving buffs from others.

Honestly, I don't think this needs modification. I think it should stay as it is. It's a low damage extra attack. It's not an extra attack that gets the benefits of inspirations, EDM, divine favor and everything else onto it. If it was it should have been epic. It's what is is for a non-epic feat, that is a prerequisite to something good; namely shield slam.

[Boddynock]

Thank you for reporting. It will get fixed some day. That's a promise.

I am going to hold you to that.

[Boddynock]

Honestly, I don't think this needs modification. I think it should stay as it is. It's a low damage extra attack. It's not an extra attack that gets the benefits of inspirations, EDM, divine favor and everything else onto it. If it was it should have been epic. It's what is is for a non-epic feat, that is a prerequisite to something good; namely shield slam.

Why should it be any less functional than Two Weapon Fighting, which costs the same, one feat, but you get a real attack?

[Karond]

Honestly, I don't think this needs modification. I think it should stay as it is. It's a low damage extra attack. It's not an extra attack that gets the benefits of inspirations, EDM, divine favor and everything else onto it. If it was it should have been epic. It's what is is for a non-epic feat, that is a prerequisite to something good; namely shield slam.

Why should it be any less functional than Two Weapon Fighting, which costs the same, one feat, but you get a real attack?

Because you want a full AB extra attack. Basically, you're not far off from asking for permanent haste on a pre-epic feat. Twoweapon fighting is far less, because you actually need more investment into it to make it worth it and you can't use a shield. This however? It's instant power for a single pre-epic feat, that doesn't modify how the build is created. It would be an automatic pick for every shield-user if it added everything onto it.

[Steve]

Activate as a mode. When using a shield you gain -2 ab if it's heavy or -4 if it's a tower shield. These penalties can be negated by 2 with twoweapon fighting, or 4 with improved twoweapon fighting (only works with towershields). The shield you use will work as an additional weapon (still giving a shield AC bonus), giving you +1 attack per round. The damage from this attack is D3 for light shields, D4 for heavy shields and D6 for tower shields.

A PC doesn't gain a full AB attack unless using a small shield.

And in order to get a full AB attack, TWF and ITWF need to be taken, which means getting an extra d3 to d6 dmg is far from "free."

If I was making a choice, I'd much rather take TWF and use a light weapon and use wands for DEF than take Shield Bash for d3 dmg.

My thought is, however, that if one does turn on Shield Bash, if they would be taking an AB penalty on both hands (main and shield). But then again, maybe that IS why Shield Bash is nice vs. regular TWF: your main hand takes NO AB PENALTY.

Especially...because Inspirations and GR. Heroism DO apply to a regular TWF weapon situation.

[Boddynock]

Basically what Steve said. But I will add my two more cents.

I still see these feats as largely equivalent when considered as single feat choices. With TWF you get another attack, same as shield bash. The trade off between them is with TWF you lose the AC of a shield, but with bash you take an AB hit on main hand attacks. That seems like an even trade.

But the way it is now, since you can buy a rapier of shielding and ALL of your AB and DMG buffs apply to offhand weapons used with TWF, TWF line is clearly superior for all but a select few builds.

Now if we look at the possibilities of investment into the whole line. But let's only assume equal feat investment, so all the way to shield slam for the bashing, but only greater TWF for that line. You can either choose between three extra attacks that receive all benefits from all buffs the way they would and should. Or one extra low dmg, low AB attack, that only receives dmg and AB benefits from STR buffs; a free knockdown attempt when charging, and a free on hit stun when bashing (if the unbuffable AB of the shield bash even hits).

When you look at it in that light, most people will see I am not arguing to push the shield bash line into a new stratosphere in regards to power, I am actually just arguing that it be buffed to at least be equivalent of an already existing, popular, and powerful line of feats.

[Darradarljod]

Interesting debate.
Thank you Rasael for introducing this feat. I've enjoyed it on my fighter who makes good use of shield bashing, shield charging and shield slamming. Regardless of how mechanically powerful it is or isn't, I hope we can all agree it is a great feature. It fits the concept of my Thayan Knight perfectly, for whom dual wielding is not an option (restricted to sword/shield). Sometimes you just want that extra "grunt". I've taken enough dexterity to branch into 2 weapon fighting to negate the penalty for shield bashing, at least with a medium shield.

I look forward to future developments of this feat.

On a side note, when I was practicing medieval fencing I remember one of my instructors suggesting that my shield was my primary weapon/offense and my "main hand" weapon was secondary. Punching people with a shield is great.

[Duster47]

Agile Shield Fighter feat also negates the -2 AB when using Shield Bash, though you also need Shield Specialization to get it.

[Darradarljod]

Agile Shield Fighter feat also negates the -2 AB when using Shield Bash, though you also need Shield Specialization to get it.

Phew. Thanks for mentioning. That's not in the SB desc. But it should be put in when itts updated. You just saved me taking a feat that was otherwise useless thanks. Will go the shield spec. route.