Suggestion: Caster Levels as Epic Feats

[Steve]

Was thinking about this possibility, since the Dispel Fix and PSC fix are in-game. So many CL24–25 builds are much more difficult to play, based on the current mobs, as per empirical experience suggests (Forum comments, some actual IG experience). And I can't say myself if the recent adjustment to mobs with Dispel (greater) has changed the situation enough, so that a Caster with less that 30 is NOT going to have a rough go of it.

Maybe that is simply the current desired paradigm: the extreme power of Casting is metered/balanced by the need to be CL 30 or above (aspect of reliability).

And I'll add: it isn't just about getting to CL 30, it is also a bit about the leveling structure, where being a few Caster Levels below Character Levels, can make a build extremely difficult (i.e., not challenging fun, but a negative experience).

So, my thought is: taking Caster Levels as Epic Feats. Is that OP? I would suggest one couldn't get above CL 30 with these Feats, so they DO NOT function like Spell Power feats.

Feedback to this suggestion?

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As Karond has noted many times in the past, suggestions are often based on the personal, and true, I have a 24 CL character that I would be so so so happy if they could reach CL 25, which I feel is the absolute minimum—25% dispel chance—to even be worth playing on BGTSCC. So, for me, I would sacrifice an Epic Feat to gain CL 25, for this build. Thought it would be worth mentioning my motivation for the suggestion (cause I know many Players have CL 24 build ideas, but I always tell them to erase that build, since it would suck eggs on BGTSCC. )

[Rhifox]

A suggestion was made earlier for Spell Girding feats, which exist in source material (FR-specific, even). They don't give a full caster level for all purposes, but do give -2 to the enemy dispel roll (so +2 CL functionally against dispels). While the one from the book is just the one, you could easily extend it by creating Greater Spell Girding and Epic Spell Girding feats at -4 and -6 respectively.

http://alcyius.com/dndtools/feats/magic ... index.html

Spell Girding
( Magic of Faerûn, p. 22)

[General]
Your spells are particularly hardy, resisting dispel checks more readily than normal.

Prerequisite

Benefit
Any dispel checks against your spells are made with a -2 penalty.

[Steve]

That is weaker in the end of what I've suggested, but yes, Girding would actually work for not only CL insufficient builds, but even CL 33 mega casters!

[Eclypticon]

I don't think its a good idea. If we did, we would need to let it effect only toons that were lacking caster levels and not those that do not need a boost.

I support bringing dispel back to vanilla levels though. We raised the caps to help address the dispel bug in the beginning. To the best of my knowledge we did not do it so we could be more in line with 3.5 pnp rules as purists. I think the community would be best served by reverting the cap since this is not quite the same as pnp. Using pnp as a justification to keep the cap is not by itself a good reason. The AI spams and cheats in ways that are not like PnP. Grinding is part of the player world, and some people have completely avoided certain areas because of dispels. 25 CL is a reasonable minimum and allows for more diverse RP builds that can still play well.

This is my opinion among many others.

[Steve]

If we did, we would need to let it effect only toons that were lacking caster levels and not those that do not need a boost.

Going back to vanilla NWN2 dispels could solve it. What would be the percentages then?

As it seems now, any build lower than 30 CL at level 30 is lacking caster levels. That is why I was suggesting that Epic Caster Level feats would only bring a build up to CL 30, just as Practiced Spell Caster does (now, at least, with the bug squashed!).

PSC is a very powerful Feat: it gives 4 CL for one Feat Slot. So maybe, what my suggestion would be in actuality, is a line of Improved (+1), Greater (+2), Epic (+3) PSC feats? If even possible to script, of course.

That would translate into, for a build with non-caster levels, the ability to spend 4 Feat slots—and not necessarily Epic Feat slots—for a total of +7 CL (vanilla PSC + Epic). I guess that means the Epic (+3) would actually cost an Epic Feat slot.

[Steve]

*epic bump for reconsideration*

Is it me or do I live in an infinite loop?!?

[Hoihe]

While boring as epic feats, these definitely could open up more builds. Although certain feat starved builds might still struggle.

[Ravial]

Adding feats such as these are WAY WORSE than any other solution, truth be told, since you raise the bar of power for every single build at expense of one or two feats. You would actually make player characters more possible to resist a Disjunction and, possibly, heighten their CL based effects on spells.

It's... probably not a good idea.

[Steve]

It Spell Girding, however, as Rhifox suggested.

[Ravial]

That'd be more doable, though less for feat-starved builds.

[mrm3ntalist]

Both should be done. Relax the Gr. Dispel cap by a little bit and add epic feats ( huge investment ).

[Kalgain]

After many years of insisting that my caster builds end up with cl 30 or higher, I tried playing toons with lower cl. You need to be more item reliant and add more defense feats.

In the end it turned out to be much more fun and engaging to play a melee caster hybrid with only cl 20 than 30. You don't do the 2 min prebuffing cycle after each rest and focus more on reactive combat. You don't have the feeling any more, when you get dispelled that oh sh** I am useless now and need to rest.

It took me many years to get better but now I have found a niche cl 20 caster that is a bit harder and more reactive to play, that can function when dispelled against normal mobs and only uses the main spells for the big bosses.

[Hoihe]

After many years of insisting that my caster builds end up with cl 30 or higher, I tried playing toons with lower cl. You need to be more item reliant and add more defense feats.

In the end it turned out to be much more fun and engaging to play a melee caster hybrid with only cl 20 than 30. You don't do the 2 min prebuffing cycle after each rest and focus more on reactive combat. You don't have the feeling any more, when you get dispelled that oh sh** I am useless now and need to rest.

It took me many years to get better but now I have found a niche cl 20 caster that is a bit harder and more reactive to play, that can function when dispelled against normal mobs and only uses the main spells for the big bosses.

By normal mobs, are you counting the 35/38 AB giants? I cannot think of a cl 20 caster that can hit 58 AC unbuffed. And my cl19 build had all the AC feats and int to AC as possible. (maybe ICE + Athkatlan at once. But that's essentially hitting once per round with that build due to lack of AB)

Swash 5/Wizard15/duelist7/SD3

[Kalgain]

I am not there yet . I am LVL 19 now. The only thing I am afraid of is spell resistance. I hope cl 20 plus two spell penetration feats from dragon slayer are enough in the late game.

I completely understand this cl request. I am on the same side for most of my toons. But to my surprise, making a lower cl caster hybrid can be almost as effective and much more fun, because you are reactive and do more than just buff up, summon allies and use the same attacks against any mob.

[Kalgain]

After many years of insisting that my caster builds end up with cl 30 or higher, I tried playing toons with lower cl. You need to be more item reliant and add more defense feats.

In the end it turned out to be much more fun and engaging to play a melee caster hybrid with only cl 20 than 30. You don't do the 2 min prebuffing cycle after each rest and focus more on reactive combat. You don't have the feeling any more, when you get dispelled that oh sh** I am useless now and need to rest.

It took me many years to get better but now I have found a niche cl 20 caster that is a bit harder and more reactive to play, that can function when dispelled against normal mobs and only uses the main spells for the big bosses.

By normal mobs, are you counting the 35/38 AB giants? I cannot think of a cl 20 caster that can hit 58 AC unbuffed. And my cl19 build had all the AC feats and int to AC as possible. (maybe ICE + Athkatlan at once. But that's essentially hitting once per round with that build due to lack of AB)

Pls don't understand me wrong. I would like to see this change implemented on some of my toons. And I am totally aware that lower cl casters are weaker and harder to play.

Getting to your build. You could improve armor by improved mage armor, that when runs out gets replaced by wands. Brooch of shieldud get's 4 shield Ac if your shield enhancement drops. Nat Ac should be at least 4. I roughly count displacement and mirror image as at least 5 Ac equivalent. So memorizing a lot of them plus having wands in the inventory should keep you save. And you always have summons too.

I am aware that buying wands and scrolls is an investment that many players don't want to do, but most of my melee builds rely on wands much more.

I think we should move toon building to another forum. Sorry for deviating to much from the main topic.