Suggestions Forum change

[TheLier]

I think this is the place to start a thread like this, but if not, move it mods, please.

Honestly, I don't know where to start with this. If I interpet the new change, there is no forum for discussion, argument, counter argument now. No way to discuss ideas, only if you -agree- with it, and you have suggestion to -support- it.

The claimed reason is rampant toxicity, which is valid, yes. But we have moderators for that, let them make a firmer stance on what they find acceptable and what not, lock threads if needed. But taking away all platforms of discussion is more then an overkill in my eyes. Now, I can't even start a discussion about a topic becuse the only people who would be allowed to post is the ones who agree with me? How to have a discussion if those are the rules?

For example, the recent vampire race discussion could not even happen in the first place, as I made a long comment, without any ad hominem attacks, why I do not think it is a good idea to implement. People who disagreed made a counter argument, etc. Things like that happen. That is how a discussion works.

I hope I'm misunderstanding here, and we are not told "you can not discuss any suggestions on the forums now, becuse you are too immature and toxic, yes all of you", becuse I honestly have no way to respond to that.

Note, that this post is not meant to spark drama, I just simply want to hear why it is suddenly a bad thing for people expressing opinons, on a forums, which have quite a few moderators, who are in charge of handling it. If they don't have the means to stop it, give it to them, I would like to see more of the argument-counter argument type of things, even though I was personally guilty of short posts, if the new rule is that you have to post lenghty posts etc, so be it. (A way of showing support will be nice in such case tho, like the "I agree with all X said", or something).

But, in my opinion taking away all forms of discussion and limting the whole forum area to people making suggestions, and people agreeing with such, is very bad idea.

I geniunely hope that I'm misunderstanding something, and this is not the case, becuse there were plenty of discussions which were quite good reads, in my eyes. There were toxis ones, yes, but the moderators should handle those.

[Touri]

But, in my opinion taking away all forms of discussion and limting the whole forum area to people making suggestions, and people agreeing with such, is very bad idea.

Hello all,

I totally understand TheLier. In my opinion it is not just a bad idea, it is also very sad, very dangerous and won't work at all. That is not how a community works together. Noone demands from the Dev to read any suggestion. If you don't care about what the players think, then just don't read any of their replies. Noone will force you to read it or blame you for not reading it. But maybe the players care for other player's opinions?
And as a player/user, if you feel personally attacked or feel your post is toxicated, then tell it to the moderator. Or maybe just send your suggestion via pm to the dev, so noone will counter it.

Now it will go like this:

"A" makes a new suggestion. So "B" goes and makes the revert suggestion in a different thread. The new rules wouldn't be broken at all.

Have fun.

Kind regards.

Touri

[Valefort]

I can only agree with was said already, squashing discussions in the name of fighting off toxicity is a bad idea. These rules are infantilizing and ineffective.

Infantilizing because you punish many people instead of simply the ones turning the discussions toxic, essentially telling everyone they're unable to behave like reasonable adults.

Ineffective as it is very easy to side step those rules, for examples like Touri mentioned, but also because the tide of new suggestions makes the forum less readable. Discussion allows to present the merits of an idea as well as its drawbacks, sensible suggestions come out stronger from a discussion. With those rules we've got a high number of suggestions and many of them were controversial or plain bad (some were made tongue in cheek, don't worry I don't care about heal kits rate ...).

The game is complicated enough that for most ideas no one can envision all the consequences, sometimes missing important ones. A well-meaning developer could end up fully developing some content that will be actually harmful, wasting everyone's time and enthusiasm where a few pages of discussion would likely have pointed the flaws and nip it in the bud.

Well-meaning persons making flawed suggestions will also be bitter when their suggestion won't be considered without even an explanation.

A last point, writing an answer within those rules is like tying knots in your tongue, it's not only annoying but difficult and as a matter of fact the rules have been broken in almost every suggestion thread without being fully moderated. The amount of moderation needed to enforce these rules seems much higher to me than the prevous situation.

Please remove those harmful rules soon.

[Steve]

Please remove those harmful rules soon.

It's too late, they have already caused harm.

[Valefort]

Let's not dramatize, it's not irreversible damage

[Steve]

Let's not dramatize, it's not irreversible damage

No, it may not be, but a broken trust is a bond harmed.

[Akroma666]

Hey guys I want to just point out something. Speaking as a moderator and idea factory:

I know a lot of you might not be happy with myself or mod staff as of late, but please know we aren't here to bully you. The new rules are being discussed by moderator staff as well as it is a very fast forced change that we are concerned about the community impact. Please don't hate us for enforcing these new rules and try your best to abide by them.

Keep in mind these rules are intended for your benefit. QC and other higher staff just basically stopped reading our suggestions because of the toxicity of the forum as a whole. We can't have that, they want our feedback and to know about any lurking bugs.

Its important to note, I don't think you can't disagree with an idea as per rule #1 or #2, just can't dismiss it completely. If its a bad idea.. Just don't post. One person submitting an idea with zero comments doesn't sound appealing to me at all.. But what do I know. If you have concerns about the idea, voice them constructively. I will use myself as an example in this thread:
http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=2 ... 4&start=15
Voicing an agreement with the timer change on expose weakness but a concern how will it affect the DoT. Offer a counter suggestion to build on the idea of the original user.

I understand your frustrations and concerns.. I know we mods feel them too, but for now we need to do our jobs and the rules are staying unless we are told otherwise.

Hope I don't get in trouble for this.

[Calodan]

I think the real reason is we as humans forgot how to human. We have little to no respect for each other through mediated communication. On here that does nothing for the server. It actually does nothing at all. Just contributes to animosity that is not needed. When is the last time any one of us got into an argument here and was willing to RP in the world we are arguing over? We do not. You see. We go IG and OOCLY META that information to our PCs and then do not RP with those we argued with on account of not OOCLY liking them and that my friends is why they make the rules. Surprised? I am not. I have been here long enough now to see the pattern.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I actually like the new rules. They just need to add a subforum for people to argue in.

Suggestions

Suggestion discussions

It's that easy. I made a thread that was literally started

Hopefully this can be a thread that simply lists classes we could potentially add. Please leave discussions regarding balancing them and whether or not to add them in another thread.

the very next post was commenting on whether or not to add it. Three posts in and you have complaints. This is not constructive discussion as it is a list. Combine this with typical passive aggressive replies such as

I can see why someone who doesn't know anything would think that

. I understand why this was done. The admins dont want to see "let's add _______" followed by a discussion dominated by one or three vocal people. They don't want to see subtle insults to prevent moderator removal. They don't want to delve through 12 pages about why or why not we think it should or should not be added. They want ideas. Simple as that. Maybe if there was a way to limit it to one post per person it wouldn't grow as toxic.

[Akroma666]

I think the real reason is we as humans forgot how to human. We have little to no respect for each other through mediated communication. On here that does nothing for the server. It actually does nothing at all. Just contributes to animosity that is not needed. When is the last time any one of us got into an argument here and was willing to RP in the world we are arguing over? We do not. You see. We go IG and OOCLY META that information to our PCs and then do not RP with those we argued with on account of not OOCLY liking them and that my friends is why they make the rules. Surprised? I am not. I have been here long enough now to see the pattern.

[Lambe]

I agree with Akroma. Discussions can be done in a constructive, objective manner. The new rule specifically mentions suggestions being shot down as if new ideas are detrimental to the server. It's a Suggestion forums, that's what it's for. Suggestions lead to something changing. Lay down your objections and have a discussion, but don't take it on to yourselves to decide what the staff should and should not approve. The staff will be discussing it further amongst themselves, which was also pointed out in the new rule.

And also, please stop the animosity in your posts. Before the new rule, those forums had so much bickering and name calling that a lot of good ideas have had their threads locked. Also remember the forums are public. I would hate to find out guests are forming opinions about this community (which includes a lurker like myself) based on such posts.

[TheLier]

Keep in mind these rules are intended for your benefit. QC and other higher staff just basically stopped reading our suggestions because of the toxicity of the forum as a whole. We can't have that, they want our feedback and to know about any lurking bugs.

Sorry, but that suggest that we does not at all know what is good for us. Keep in mind, that nobody was -ever- forced to post their suggestions there, and not in a PM. Honestly, I don't want to attack you Akroma, becuse this is really not personal, but that sounds like moderators could not moderate it properly.

Enforcing a rule still being discussed, is something I just can't understand. If the staff did not agree with it, who was the one who ignored everyone else, and just had their way with it? Becuse this awfully sounds like that.

This all just sounds highly subjective, and pretty much a "we don't want to deal with any controversial topics, becuse you are toddlers who can't be trusted with it".

Again, Akroma, don't take this up to yourself, it is really not directed at you, personally, but the whole staff, becuse I don't want to think someone with the right authority just decided to do it before a consent was reached on the issue. That would be something highly concering, really.

I think the real reason is we as humans forgot how to human. We have little to no respect for each other through mediated communication. On here that does nothing for the server. It actually does nothing at all. Just contributes to animosity that is not needed. When is the last time any one of us got into an argument here and was willing to RP in the world we are arguing over? We do not. You see. We go IG and OOCLY META that information to our PCs and then do not RP with those we argued with on account of not OOCLY liking them and that my friends is why they make the rules. Surprised? I am not. I have been here long enough now to see the pattern.

Honestly, you are saying everyone metagames all the time? And all of us can't act like adults and discuss a topic, becuse a few people can't? Collective punshiment does nothing, but make people who were not an issue, be angry too, at the one issueing it. Sure, it is easy to punish everyone, I give you that.

[Akroma666]

Maybe if there was a way to limit it to one post per person it wouldn't grow as toxic.

It was suggested at some point that posts should be approved by a moderator like the DM questions forum. Then that moderator can sponsor the topic and keep it in line and work with the poster to meet their needs such as a discussion or a idea pool.

I thought this worked great when I tried it myself with an unamed QC member a while back as it was the first heavy discussion that didn't receive a single toxic comment. But the idea was scrapped for now.

I'd gladly offer better ideas up the chain the best of my ability if you guys have some suggestions?

[Planehopper]

Rules will always be in flux and under discussion. This rule included. It doesn't matter who or how it was implemented at this point, we stand behind it.

I'm not going to be so bold as to say this rule is for your benefit. Perhaps it isn't. I mean, if you enjoy a good argument over mechanics and additions to the game, this obviously isn't a great change for you. I know how you feel.

But I think it is for the benefit of the greater community, in that by encouraging people to come forth with suggestions without a handful of veteran mechanics gurus shutting them down quickly, we all benefit. Nothing happens outside of a Dev seeing an idea and making it happen and QC vetting the change. These rules don't change that.

I do like the idea of separate topics for suggestions and discussion. There are a lot of theory crafters who love to discuss the mechanics of a particular suggestion. We get that and hopefully we can work that out. It would just require more understanding and civility than we had previously.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I'd gladly offer better ideas up the chain the best of my ability if you guys have some suggestions?

Ban everyone who disagrees with me just joking.