debuff builds?

[aaron22]

i can make a thousand good buffer builds, but i am having trouble coming up with a good debuffer build that is not a DC necro.

any one got any other ideas?

[Steve]

Highest CL possible, casting multiple Mord's.

[mrm3ntalist]

Bard/Dissonant Chord5
Curse Song, curse spells, slow songs, debuff on concetration, mords

[Valefort]

MaA / Blackguard with feint.

[aaron22]

the bard/dis cord build is pretty good, but in play it does WAY more buffing then debuffing and it doesn't nearly play as effective at debuffing because you just save the debuffs for emergencies it seems.

maybe something 17sorc/10PM/3BG if there is someway to link that together into something that would be effective. continuous debuffing from aura and can use sick.grasp over and over again. add in the sorc spells?

[Storm Munin]

Bard with BG dip, curse song and expose weakness?

Toss warpriest into the build (through blackguard) for another -1 to saves.

[chad878262]

Bard/Dissonant Chord5
Curse Song, curse spells, slow songs, debuff on concetration, mords

QFT, and add in stormsinger for more fun (but less epic feats...) All casters should be doing some buffing. It's the same concept as melee, that is to say defense if often more important than offense, especially when soloing. Take care of AC, Saves, DR, etc. first, then worry about doing more damage. After all, if you are doing 5-15 damage / hit to the enemy and they are doing 0-0 to you you'll eventually win, even if it is agonizingly slow. Meanwhile if you do 100 / hit, but get surrounded by a big mob unexpectedly then you just lost some hard earned XP.

In other words, a debuffer should still be buffing, but in a group you can act as the primary debuffer and Bard/DC/SS with max CHA is a solid build to do so.

[aaron22]

of course. getting AC on a bard build is pretty easy. the same cannot be said for a sorc build. even with the PM PRC added in. im gonna do some building and see what i can come up with.

[Moltrazahn]

IF you do... Bard 14/Blackguard 3/Dissonant Chord 3/Palemaster 10 you'd do following to enemies.

(Dissonant Chord, lv 3) - Concentration (Equal to your charisma modifier)
(Black guard, lv 3) - 2 saves
(Inspire Jarring, lv 14) - 4 concentration and 2 to will saves.

These are passive, ergo, always active. You can then look to your PM and Bard spells for more demodifiers.

Examples:
Mind Fog: Those within fog suffer –10 on Will saves.
Dirge: Enemies suffer 2 points of Strength and Dexterity ability score damage each round.
Greater Shout: Cone of sonic energy deals 10d6 damage, causes deafness, and can stun.
War Cry: Bard receives +2 to hit and damage; enemies are stricken with fear.

[chad878262]

of course. getting AC on a bard build is pretty easy. the same cannot be said for a sorc build. even with the PM PRC added in. im gonna do some building and see what i can come up with.

Not that difficult... add in 3 levels of BG or any other class that gives heavy armor proficiency (though BG has the added debuff benefit to help your DC's at the cost of useless feats and skills), then take Auto-still 1-9 and you have your armored blaster...

However, with a de-buffer it becomes more difficult since you only have so many spells and you really want high DC. I would say you want Shield, IMA, Shadowshield, then use dodge boots and a deflection item to round out your AC, but really your defense should primarily rely on Mirror Images, Premonition/Shades, and Deez's Repulsive shadow barrier (less than displacement or ethereal visage, but last minute / level vs. rnd/level for ethereal visage or displacement/greater invisibility). If you go straight Sorc 30 you gain some epic Feats toward epic CHA and I'd try to get Epic Focus, either in enchantment or transmutation (Greater Bestow Curse). Essentially, I recommend trying to just get one or max two (at lower levels) defensive spells per level, giving you plenty of space for debuffs and maybe a few damage spells or summons. So, if I was thinking about only taking 1 or 2 defensive spells / level on a sorc I think it might look something like this:

1 - Shield
2 - Mirror Images
3 - Haste, IMA (alternatively, for -2 AC you can use +4 robes or 1st level MA spell and take Displacement here)
4 - Deez's RSB, Least Spell Mantle
5 - Mind Blank
6 - Superior Resistance
7 - Shadow Shield
8 - Premonition
9 - Greater Sanctuary (if you can get it, if not take Ethereal Jaunt alongside Shadow Shield for 7th level spells).

This should still leave plenty of room for a fairly decent spell list, no?

@Moltrazahn, cool build, but is CL27 somewhat debilitating with no HiPS on a build built for high CL? I suppose as long as you have some meat shields keeping enemies off of you, no need to worry about buffs, but if your tank goes down you are in trouble, I think. Either way, I like it in theory.

[aaron22]

i built this... http://nwn2db.com/build/?260404 not sure i love it. i may do some revising. i want more feat slots dammit

[Moltrazahn]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?260405

This is based on my suggestion.

I made it melee, because your auras wont hit enemies if you stand in the back.

Pushed in EDM for extra punch, CL is 30. You could in essence do well in melee and not be all bad with spells. With Mirror image and crit immunity you can't get touched by melee hits. You can also use FP and Heavy shield, however that will impact your tumble, thus your AC given from that, so id advise a light shield +4 to retain "full" casting potential.

However, you can edit it around as much as you want. More STR and going str-bard could work as well, however your saves, and debuffing from DC would suffer (not to mention spell amount). At present, fully buffed AB is around 36+d20 (with +4 weapon)... which aint fantastic, but works. Granted this is without Inspiration, as that is left on Jarring, otherwise it would be 40 (41 with the spell to improved it by 1).

Edit, full breakdown:
With Mirror Image, the only thing that can hit you in melee is a critical... However, you are immune to Criticals! ... Slap on a displacement, and as long as you got spells, you are untouchable by melee. Spells is another matter, but it's like that for everyone. This means your ac is only there to guard your mirror images lifespan.

Add sonic weapon, EDM and Courage for more ab and extra Damage. Plus, at 40 ab you can hit most things.

25 (base) + 4 (weapon) + 4 (Greater heroism) + 2 (+3 str item) + 5 (Courage + bardspell to improve it by 1) = 40.

With a chainmail and light shield+4, and +3 dodge, natural, deflection... your sitting at around 48 ac (with haste).

If im not entirely off my meds that is

[chad878262]

i built this... http://nwn2db.com/build/?260404 not sure i love it. i may do some revising. i want more feat slots dammit

Hey Aaron, just some friendly general build advice (haven't looked in depth as to the build strengths/weaknesses, but noticed a couple mistakes at a glance):

1. You are spending two points at Character creation to get INT 15/16 and CHA 17/18...then you pay for 1 strength on a level up. By starting with CHA 17 you can start with STR 13 and have an extra point to put in either for one more STR (higher carrying capacity) or CON (use a +3 STR/CON item). Then, on the level you were increasing STR, you increase CHA instead, which ends up giving you the same final CHA score... You could instead do this with INT, but CHA is the better choice so that you get the extra skill points throughout your build.

2. Why BG 4? Are you aiming for higher AB? Your CL is currently 26 and dropping BG to 3 increases that to 27 granting 5% better chance to not be dispelled. Aura of Despair is really what you are going for and that comes at BG3 so really no reason to take the 4th level.

3. Divine Shield must be taken on a BG level, so you will need to take BG 3 at 18th level and take Divine Shield then. (the feat won't show up on the list on your Sorc/PM levels)

4. It should be noted, since you aren't going the Armored Caster route that taking Spell Focus:school and greater Spell focus:school will increase DC's in one school as much as Aura of Despair will debuff the enemy. In addition at CL29 you get another DC so really you will be -1 in most schools, +1 in one school... You could then take Epic Spell Focus for +2 DC's in your chosen school over what Aura of Despair provides. In addition, since you could drop STR to 10, you could also drop DEX to 13 and use a +3 item and then add another point of CHA, dropping an epic spell for another GR CHA for an additional DC. Finally, you have to be close to the enemy for the BG save penalty to apply. Point being, I think you can get similar/better DC's without BG than with.


If the goal is to always be in a group and debuff saves for another player to take advantage of Bard/DC/BG would be a better build. If the point is to debuff for your own spells I am not really sure BG is adding enough to your build to be worth it, though I suppose the as necessary use of Divine Shield would help to make it an even trade... Personally, I'd rather have CL30 with equivalent DC's than be able to increase AC by 10 for 10 minutes per rest... CL30 with wards up shouldn't have any issues getting hit anyway, the extra AC shouldn't be necessary.

[chad878262]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?260405

This is based on my suggestion.

I made it melee, because your auras wont hit enemies if you stand in the back.

Pushed in EDM for extra punch, CL is 30. You could in essence do well in melee and not be all bad with spells. With Mirror image and crit immunity you can't get touched by melee hits. You can also use FP and Heavy shield, however that will impact your tumble, thus your AC given from that, so id advise a light shield +4 to retain "full" casting potential.

However, you can edit it around as much as you want. More STR and going str-bard could work as well, however your saves, and debuffing from DC would suffer (not to mention spell amount). At present, fully buffed AB is around 36+d20 (with +4 weapon)... which aint fantastic, but works. Granted this is without Inspiration, as that is left on Jarring, otherwise it would be 40 (41 with the spell to improved it by 1).

Edit, full breakdown:
With Mirror Image, the only thing that can hit you in melee is a critical... However, you are immune to Criticals! ... Slap on a displacement, and as long as you got spells, you are untouchable by melee. Spells is another matter, but it's like that for everyone. This means your ac is only there to guard your mirror images lifespan.

Add sonic weapon, EDM and Courage for more ab and extra Damage. Plus, at 40 ab you can hit most things.

25 (base) + 4 (weapon) + 4 (Greater heroism) + 2 (+3 str item) + 5 (Courage + bardspell to improve it by 1) = 40.

With a chainmail and light shield+4, and +3 dodge, natural, deflection... your sitting at around 48 ac (with haste).

If im not entirely off my meds that is

Molt, NWN2DB with Kaedrins gives PM 9/10 caster progression. In Vanilla NWN2 they are 5/10 and on BGtSCC they are 6/10, so the CL of your build is actually 27, not 30.

[Moltrazahn]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?260405

This is based on my suggestion.

I made it melee, because your auras wont hit enemies if you stand in the back.

Pushed in EDM for extra punch, CL is 30. You could in essence do well in melee and not be all bad with spells. With Mirror image and crit immunity you can't get touched by melee hits. You can also use FP and Heavy shield, however that will impact your tumble, thus your AC given from that, so id advise a light shield +4 to retain "full" casting potential.

However, you can edit it around as much as you want. More STR and going str-bard could work as well, however your saves, and debuffing from DC would suffer (not to mention spell amount). At present, fully buffed AB is around 36+d20 (with +4 weapon)... which aint fantastic, but works. Granted this is without Inspiration, as that is left on Jarring, otherwise it would be 40 (41 with the spell to improved it by 1).

Edit, full breakdown:
With Mirror Image, the only thing that can hit you in melee is a critical... However, you are immune to Criticals! ... Slap on a displacement, and as long as you got spells, you are untouchable by melee. Spells is another matter, but it's like that for everyone. This means your ac is only there to guard your mirror images lifespan.

Add sonic weapon, EDM and Courage for more ab and extra Damage. Plus, at 40 ab you can hit most things.

25 (base) + 4 (weapon) + 4 (Greater heroism) + 2 (+3 str item) + 5 (Courage + bardspell to improve it by 1) = 40.

With a chainmail and light shield+4, and +3 dodge, natural, deflection... your sitting at around 48 ac (with haste).

If im not entirely off my meds that is

Molt, NWN2DB with Kaedrins gives PM 9/10 caster progression. In Vanilla NWN2 they are 5/10 and on BGtSCC they are 6/10, so the CL of your build is actually 27, not 30.

Ah! true that!
Had forgotten that