sense motive should counter sleight of hand

[NeOmega]

spot hardly makes sense, except that you could detect someone else getting pick-pocketed. the general way a pick-pocket works is they bump into you, usually fairly violently. then they grab you, say "oh geeze, im so sorry, are you ok, looks like i...." while they are doing this, you may think they are just physical people, because they are putting their hand on your shoulder, grabbing your hand to shake it, etc... but they are actually trying to distract you by making you feel one hand, (and focusing on it) more than the hand pickpocketing. On women they will often make movements towards areas that heighten anxiety, so to speak, without actually going there, while the other hand finds the wallet in her purse.

of course, the other check would be a pick-pocket check, since a pick-pocket would know exactly what was happening if it ws happening to them.

[Blackman D]

pickpocket is already messed up as it is, lets not make things worse

[Brother Bruce]

If they're lying about it would be sense motive vs bluff.
Catching them in the act, it'd be spot vs sleight of hand.

What about this doesnt make any sense?

[Thorsson]

If they're lying about it would be sense motive vs bluff.
Catching them in the act, it'd be spot vs sleight of hand.

What about this doesnt make any sense?

Exactly. You can hardly sense motive if you didn't even see them...

[NegInfinity]

Sleight of hand is parlor tricks and is countered by spot.
Sense motive is for countering bluffomancy.
Sleight of hand is not bluffomancy.

[NeOmega]

Exactly. You can hardly sense motive if you didn't even see them...

I explained how pickpockets work, in the real world. You remember them. You remember bumping into them. You remember them being very friendly. It's only when you realize you are missing something do you realize they lifted you.

Plus, sense motive is supposed to be used to detect alignment. Since that won't be happening, sense motive should be more than just a counter to bluff, since bluff is used in multiple quests, and even has a combat purpose (feint). sense motive just detects lie... except that sometimes you can role bluff too, to counter bluffs, so sense motive doesn't even get that domain.

But whatever, dumb idea.

[Thorsson]

Exactly. You can hardly sense motive if you didn't even see them...

I explained how pickpockets work, in the real world. You remember them. You remember bumping into them. You remember them being very friendly. It's only when you realize you are missing something do you realize they lifted you.

Plus, sense motive is supposed to be used to detect alignment. Since that won't be happening, sense motive should be more than just a counter to bluff, since bluff is used in multiple quests, and even has a combat purpose (feint). sense motive just detects lie... except that sometimes you can role bluff too, to counter bluffs, so sense motive doesn't even get that domain.

But whatever, dumb idea.

I know how it usually happens in the real world, but D&D is not the real world - it's magic, and the pickpocket may be invisible or hiding in plain sight. In this case, as I pointed out, you can't possibly sense their motive. However, you might spot something if you are particularly aware.

Even without such considerations, the methods you describe are, if you like, the lowest skill forms of the art. There are those who can lift a purse or wallet without those crude methods, but nowadays they call themselves... magicians!

[NeOmega]

Exactly. You can hardly sense motive if you didn't even see them...

I explained how pickpockets work, in the real world. You remember them. You remember bumping into them. You remember them being very friendly. It's only when you realize you are missing something do you realize they lifted you.

Plus, sense motive is supposed to be used to detect alignment. Since that won't be happening, sense motive should be more than just a counter to bluff, since bluff is used in multiple quests, and even has a combat purpose (feint). sense motive just detects lie... except that sometimes you can role bluff too, to counter bluffs, so sense motive doesn't even get that domain.

But whatever, dumb idea.

I know how it usually happens in the real world, but D&D is not the real world - it's magic, and the pickpocket may be invisible or hiding in plain sight. In this case, as I pointed out, you can't possibly sense their motive. However, you might spot something if you are particularly aware.

Even without such considerations, the methods you describe are, if you like, the lowest skill forms of the art. There are those who can lift a purse or wallet without those crude methods, but nowadays they call themselves... magicians!

if you ever watch a magician pickpocket, they definitely do the touchy feely charming a little chit chat thing. they usually get the item within 5 seconds or less. ive seen some amazing videos of it. they'll take watches off wrists and everything. it is quite remarkable.

[Steve]

Please read how it works in D&D:

https://dndtools.net/skills/sleight-of-hand/

[DeepFriedMoose]

Please read how it works in D&D:

https://dndtools.net/skills/sleight-of-hand/

According to the above, Sense Motive would then give a Synergy bonus (+2) to the Spot check vs. the Pickpocket attempt. (Countering the Synergy Bonus that Bluff gives.)

Does Sense Motive currently provide a Synergy bonus to other skills? (e.g. Diplomacy)

[Thorsson]

According to the above, Sense Motive would then give a Synergy bonus (+2) to the Spot check vs. the Pickpocket attempt. (Countering the Synergy Bonus that Bluff gives.)

I can't see that it says that, although it would make some sort of sense if Bluff affects Sleight of Hand.

However, as I read it, there should be no opposing roll if you don't know the 'cutpurse' is there, as "Your Sleight of Hand check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone observing you..." and invisible or hidden creatures are clearly not observed. But then neither should they get a bluff bonus.

Complicated.

[NegInfinity]

I explained how pickpockets work, in the real world. You remember them. You remember bumping into them. You remember them being very friendly. It's only when you realize you are missing something do you realize they lifted you.

No, dude, a proper pickpocket works like this:

You come home and your wallet and cell phone are missing. You don't remember bumping into anyone or anyone apologizing to you.

[DeepFriedMoose]

Complicated, indeed! It seems that many of these synergies should come round, full circle, eventually -- but many times, they don't. C'est la vie.

[Wolfrayne]

Its spot vs Sleight of hand.

Some people also tend to forget their character doesn't have eyes in the back of their head too. Just because you can see 360 degrees around them doesn't mean they can.

[RaiderOne]

how does pick pocket work / is messed up. My current main has 10 ranks in it but ive never used it.