Consequences for Betraying a Guild

[Your best friend]

Hello, everyone!

I wanted to start a discussion and see what people's thoughts are. Namely, what can happen when a character decides to betray a faction they belong to, either by selling off secrets or trying to kill someone. We already have rules in place for guild infiltration and permadeaths -- but I think we should expand those a bit.

This has always been the policy, but we realized that it wasn't posted anywhere publicly. And it really should be. So here it is:

We ARE doing permadeaths if a guild infiltrator/spy is caught, and the infiltrated guild calls for the permadeath.

In the event of metagaming issues, all players involved should of course have screenshots of the relevant RP. As a personal preference, I like screenshots to be accompanied by explanations of what the screenshots are supposed to show.

For a hypothetical, let's say you're a Harper but you feel like your character no longer fits the group. You take all the secrets the Harpers have accumulated, all the intelligence reports, and give them to the Thayan Enclave. If you are caught betraying the Harpers, and the Harpers call for permadeath, I fully believe your character should stay dead if the Harpers manage kill them.

Now, just swap the Harpers with whatever faction you love, and replace the Thayan Enclave with whatever their enemies are: Lolthites betraying their House and giving secrets to Eilistraeens, Zhentarim agents who go turncoat and give intel to Harpers, or members of the Halls of Inner Light giving their entire roster to the Coven of Darkness. It doesn't really matter. The principle is the same.

Because here's the thing -- no one is forcing you to betray your faction. That is a conscious decision you make as a roleplayer. In a game like this, secrets are rare commodities, and selling them off is like stealing a lot of time and energy from other players. I am not saying no one should do it -- but I am saying it should have room for consequences.

Thoughts?

[aaron22]

there are a few things to consider when evaluating this i think. i also do enjoy playing when the stakes are high. i do not shy away from such ventures.

could there be some plot brought forth from it where everyone wins and we have a good time from it. understanding cooperation and communication could go a long way here.

if it were done with the understanding that if caught death could/would/should be the appropriate outcome. then we could go from there.

mortality is something we rarely truly feel in this game. a devise that would put mortality at risk could be fun for everyone. from my perspective. one might die at the end, but the thrill of logging every day knowing it might be the last would be amazing.

[Dragonslayer]

I say permadeath and level 10 PC's only, but that's neither here nor there.

Roleplay should result in consequences. While a general PvP normally would end with one side 'beaten,' and wounded, when it comes to faction warfare it should be assumed permadeath is on the table.

Actions should have consequences where people believe there are consequences. For example, a player probably has no problem dying in a dungeon, because it's a video game. That's part of the game; dying sometimes. When beaten by another player the expectation is that one party loses the argument and goes to lick their wounds for a while.

Plotting and intrigue cannot exist unless there is an expectation that such action will result in retaliation from the faction that was harmed if discovered, in the vein of roleplaying consequences. Secrets lose meaning if there's nothing to lose by telling others.

That is to say, I do think guilds should exercise restraint. The smaller the secret, the lower the consequences. Permadeath should be restricted to really, really big betrayals. But that's on the guild to decide, and by playing along you should be inherently agreeing to play by those rules.

[Endelyon]

I've always interpreted the post quoted by Charraj to mean that if you are caught by a guild while physically infiltrating their guild hall they may call for your permadeath, though it very well may not have been the original intent. Either way, a permadeath has never been handed out for simple guild "betrayal" that I am aware of (since 2013), though likely this clause does exist because at some point in the past this was a legitimate concern of the team. At the end of the day this sort of thing will ultimately always be handled at DM discretion, as players (in general, no specific group) tend to have a hard time divorcing their emotions from their roleplay.

I'd also keep in mind that infiltration is not all bad, and in many cases that I've seen first hand infiltrators can be just as active (or more so) than legitimate members of the guild in terms of providing agency, storyline, and activity to its members and fueling its growth on the server. Certainly this is not always the case, but often it can be.

It's an interesting discussion, and there's no harm in theorycrafting, though I'd be remiss if I didn't admit that I don't think a harsher set of rules for this sort of thing (or even expanded rules based on that original post, which at this point feels quite antiquated), applied unilaterally across all PCs and all guilds, would be helpful for the server's betterment. At the end of the day if you have questions about a specific scenario involving an infiltrator in your guild it's best to contact the DMs about that scenario and try to work out the details with them and the other player to come to a solution and narrative that everyone can be happy with.

[Calodan]

DEATH TO TRAITORS!!!

[Fury_US]

Given that I am a dirty traitor, I feel the need to weigh in on this-

Number one, I am absolutely, 100% for consequences. They simply make sense, especially if you happen to be running from one of the big bads, like the Zhentarim who are notorious for basic policies of "The only way you leave us, is when you leave this world, cupcake."

That being said? I also 100% support the basic concept that such things need to be played maturely. Which essentially means that if you come at me OOCly with comments like "Are you going to insist on an RP out when we come to wreck you?" and then getting butt hurt about un-enforceable consequences, I'm not going to feel like that was handled either maturely or even remotely ICly. Which means, at that point, I'm way less inclined to accept anything like a perma death. The idea that such an enormous potential for great, and dramatic RP being wasted in a single throbbing e-peen moment of "toggle hostile" just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Being forced to end a character I put a great deal of effort and time into over "consequences=pvp rofltstomp" with no build up, no cat and mouse, no intrigue, no fundamental groundwork? Yeah, that... turns the bad taste into a giant turd, basically.

On the other hand, if my character were caught after being outsmarted, out-thought and out-played, and her last view is off the ramparts? Godspeed, little bird, you were an AMAZING character to play. I mean seriously. I couldn't ask for a better death for my character

The most important thing, though, is that I want the RP to be worth it. Which is what I think most people have to consider when facing a "you have betrayed your guild/faction". Both you, the player and your guild mates have been handed an amazing opportunity, story wise. Make the best of it! Make it memorable! Make those consequences worth it!

[Kiran]

Or do what I do.

Never betray anyone!

[Xanfyrst]

I enjoy infiltration RP.

It can generate a lot of RP and story opportunities for all parties involved, even if they aren't aware of the treachery among them.

It's important however that infiltrators are fully committed to ensure both guilds and their members are treated equally OOC-wise. Your character might be an infiltrator, but you as a player are still a member of both.

In short; don't be a Jerk.

[Torgerias]

I enjoy infiltration RP.

It can generate a lot of RP and story opportunities for all parties involved, even if they aren't aware of the treachery among them.

It's important however that infiltrators are fully committed to ensure both guilds and their members are treated equally OOC-wise. Your character might be an infiltrator, but you as a player are still a member of both.

In short; don't be a Jerk.

Says one of the most infamous infiltrators on BG

But seriously, Xan, Endelyon, and Fury are absolutely right. Infiltrators are nearly always some of the most active RPers of any faction, and if they are good RPers who care about the people they play with then the stories that come out of their RP make for exciting roleplaying opportunities. Questioned loyalty, sudden heartbreaking betrayal, witch hunts, and epic confrontations all come out of this sort of thing, if players can be patient with one another and roll with it.

[NegInfinity]

Hello, everyone!

This should not be blanket applied to all guilds and should be decided by guild. That's the way I see it.

If you're an ex-member of Sunite guild (Sune - chaotic good goddes of love and beauty), then your ex-colleagues probably will not make an example out of your char by murdering the char in horrible way, just so nobody ever dares to abandon tenets of Sune ever again. Because that would not match the faith/guild.

That is a conscious decision you make as a roleplayer.

Your character is the one making decision, and it is entirley possible to get blackmailed into betrayal.

[Israe]

As a traitor to one of the most secretive guilds on the server, there are consequences that DM's discuss. You don't just walk away with secrets freely, DM team does a good job of ensuring that. I've taken some heavily imposed consequences (Without complaint due to my own choice) to prevent me breaking lore during the period.

[Blackrose]

Because here's the thing -- no one is forcing you to betray your faction. That is a conscious decision you make as a roleplayer. In a game like this, secrets are rare commodities, and selling them off is like stealing a lot of time and energy from other players. I am not saying no one should do it -- but I am saying it should have room for consequences.

Thoughts?

You can't permadeath the entire Drow community.

-- Edit---
We already try to do that since 2009.

[LISA100595]

I'm in agreement with Endelyon on this. *nods sagely*

I've always interpreted the post quoted by Charraj to mean that if you are caught by a guild while physically infiltrating their guild hall they may call for your permadeath, though it very well may not have been the original intent. Either way, a permadeath has never been handed out for simple guild "betrayal" that I am aware of (since 2013), though likely this clause does exist because at some point in the past this was a legitimate concern of the team. At the end of the day this sort of thing will ultimately always be handled at DM discretion, as players (in general, no specific group) tend to have a hard time divorcing their emotions from their roleplay.

I'd also keep in mind that infiltration is not all bad, and in many cases that I've seen first hand infiltrators can be just as active (or more so) than legitimate members of the guild in terms of providing agency, storyline, and activity to its members and fueling its growth on the server. Certainly this is not always the case, but often it can be.

It's an interesting discussion, and there's no harm in theorycrafting, though I'd be remiss if I didn't admit that I don't think a harsher set of rules for this sort of thing (or even expanded rules based on that original post, which at this point feels quite antiquated), applied unilaterally across all PCs and all guilds, would be helpful for the server's betterment. At the end of the day if you have questions about a specific scenario involving an infiltrator in your guild it's best to contact the DMs about that scenario and try to work out the details with them and the other player to come to a solution and narrative that everyone can be happy with.

** Details have to be taken into account, no two infiltration's or traitors or even guilds for that matter, are the same. Evilish types might call for something harsher while Goodie Goodies might ask for something more lenient. **

[aaron22]

do it in the orc guild and you must delete acct and smash comp and give away at least one child. minimum.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Few months ago I found Ebon Blades guild key in a trash can(donation crate), lol.