Comments on Maecius playing BGtSCC

[chad878262]

Hey all, since Mac did say

I'll also allow comments here, but I would actually prefer them in PMs, so that I can try to keep this thread as tidy as possible (for easy reference when I'm looking back at design issues to consider).

and since there are as many not-Mac posts as actual Mac posts, I thought perhaps a separate thread would be a better place to start some conversation around Maecius' design notes, play experiences and what have you. I'll start with a few personal opinions I had as reading the various experiences from our fearless leader.

I find all of the Design Notes well thought out and insightful, but we do have a limited staff so it will be necessary (eventually) to come up with a prioritization. Otherwise folks will just pick stuff up willy-nilly which may not synergize with server direction.

I idly wonder if we should have a "processing" point where new PCs get some Q&A to place them at a starting map (as Mystra and Shaud currently do, albeit not incredibly clearly in the case of starting in Soubar), and to give them some server information. I'm imagining something like a border checkpoint. Don't know if this would be a burden every time someone made a new character, though I suppose we could make it skippable.

This seems more like Ultima IV rather than D&D. However, if it is done in such a way as to help new players and it's skippable I suppose it's ok. I wouldn't want every evil PC created starting in Soubar personally as it isn't like there are NO evil people in BG...

The graveyard itself was dangerous at level 1 (that's where I died), but not punishingly so. I leveled up quickly and at level 2 the going was safer. It probably helped considerably that I was in a party, and that I've gotten over my historic "consumables shyness" (I probably burned through 10 cure light wounds potions last night, where in the past I'd always horded consumables until I had 99 of them sitting there doing nothing). All in all, I think the challenge level was acceptable for a CR 1-3 dungeon, especially in groups. You do need to bring the right weapons, though, which could be a trouble spot for new players. I forgot to check if the Flaming Fist at the gate to the graveyard suggest bringing the correct weapon types. I'd rather do something like that than turn off the DR entirely, I think, as it is a good introduction to D&D fundamentals (i.e. "make sure you bring the right equipment for the job," and, "undead can actually be pretty scary in this game"). The oozes in the cave dungeon might be a really nasty surprise for a new player, though; not sure if we should keep them as a learning experience as well, or consider replacing them with something "easier." My four-man party made it past them without any deaths, so maybe they're fine. A necromancer boss fight did more damage to us than anything else. Either way, low levels is where you probably want to learn tactics, when the cost of failure is low and easy to recoup. At higher levels, losing XP can feel like more of a grind to recover. I had my -200 XP back in probably less than 2 minutes once I was back in the graveyard.

Graveyard is CR 1.5 while the cave therein is CR2 so it should be difficult at level 1, even if in a party you should have to be careful of your HP, getting surrounded, watching out for tougher spawns, etc. As always, equipment matters and consumable potions can make you relatively safe (other than getting one of those wonderful NWN2 dice rolls where enemies get 4 20's in a row). A key in D&D which many players (pnp and CRPG) is that spending money/resources to PREVENT damage is far more cost/resource efficient then healing damage in the vast majority of situations. potions of Barkskin, Mage Armor, Shield and Heroism (total cost ~500 gp, so to start it might be more realistic to just go Barkskin and Mage Armor, then add heroism when you can afford and shield last since it has shortest duration and is the most expensive).

I love the conclusions you came to Mac and it is my approach when playing as well. Even after 4 years I still haven't seen 100% of the server and I relish the challenge of trying to survive in the unknown environments when I enter them. Such things are few and far between now, I would hate to rob new players of the feeling that comes from areas that are truly dangerous.

Many of the shopkeepers in the Wide are also stoically silent, though I'm very glad we moved it and expanded it (great work to builders there, it definitely feels more like a market than before). Still, shouldn't the butcher NPC sell meats? The farmers other food items (one has a fish stand, another a fruit stand)? Who are "Jerta" and "Red Corel" and what should they sell? Etc., etc. The epic shop is hyuuuge, and should maybe be broken up into more thematically appropriate shops across the server to encourage exploration and make "the menu," as it were, more manageable? It just feels a little weird as a one-stop shop.

Should a builder or someone skilled enough with the toolset to create a shop be interested, there is plenty we could do without introducing any 'epic' shops. Currently we have a pretty noticeable gap between +2 level equipment (such as what's available in Seven Suns) and Epic... Aside from very few exceptions you either get +2 stuff for ~10K or you get Epic stuff for anywhere between ~80K and 500K. We could really use some +3 versions in the ~15-70K range to support players that struggle to get the large amounts of gold to get a full range of epic equipment.

If it is seen as necessary or if a really cool (and not overly powerful) idea comes along for a new epic item it could be included, so long as it is not just adding more power creep. Or as Mac says, the Epic/Hell shop merchant could have inventory split up.

Idle thought: Should quest-givers have map pins? Roy's name at least indicates he's a quest-giver (and indicated that it's a level 1-ready quest), but given that so many NPCs are otherwise useless, there's not a lot for players to go on when determining who's important to talk to. They can either click on everyone (which is not very rewarding right now, since most people have nothing to say), or we can provide some sort of feedback. Most games these days provide little excitement marks above NPC heads or other visual indicators, but we could probably get away with map pins?

Personally I would prefer the names over NPC heads be changed to include "Quest" or something similar... I'm 40 years old with bad eyes and the mini-map is already far too mini (I nearly ALWAYS have the actual map taking up ~25% of my screen real estate just so I can keep track of where I'm at.) Map pins should be utilized for important locations that remain important, not the (hopefully soon to be one time) quest givers that I generally have no interest in.

I really love the new hunting and cooking mechanics. Skinning and cooking meat, that is. Might be nice if the "Cooking !" option at campfires lost the excitement mark, or if there at least wasn't a space there, though? I wonder, also, if we could expand this, particularly for characters with survival investment? Maybe if we implement crafting, we could incorporate hunting and harvesting into the mechanics -- a Monster Hunter-esque system where you carve out dragon hearts and umber hulk carapaces to make unique armor, etc. Imagine hunting displacer beasts for tentacle stalks and then a black dragon for its hide to work with a crafter PC in order to make boots with 5% concealment, etc.? Maybe a character with high survival has a higher chance of harvesting rare or valuable components (maybe a wizard really wants that beholder eye, but, not having any skill in butchering animals accidentally destroys it trying to cut it out -- oh, if only they'd brought a ranger!)? Just a random example and some random thoughts of course, as any system developed will have to be vetted by QC. But I think it would be neat if we could incorporate hunting and harvesting mechanics into it.

I have nothing to add...I love these idea's. Also, it's cute that you think anyone would give up their +3/4 dodge boots for 5% concealment, even if it's permanent...

Came across the first part of the ruins puzzle with the statue with the hollow eye. I'd forgotten we put this puzzle in, and was glad to be reminded of it. More dungeons should probably have a similar sense of mystery and encourage exploration in addition to killin' and lootin' things. Something to keep in mind when updating maps and even establishing new dungeons -- if they can encourage roleplay and player curiosity, that's a good thing! It gives people a reason to prepare and come back, if nothing else.

I'd love this... Builders should look at what Gedwey Insignia did with Ulcaster Ruins for inspiration or what Tfunke did when he completely rebuilt Durlag's Tower. Really nice area's that require using your noggin, which means you'll probably have to enter multiple times before you see everything.


Finally, as to whatever issues with Mac's build or RP builds in general...

It appears Mac has pretty much always been in a party (and even in so called 'dead times'), but end of the day levels 1-10 there is not much you can't overcome solo with any build through simple use of consumables. After that dispels will start making that tactic a bit tricky (or expensive). I think the complaints about difficulty of the server remain unfounded throughout the leveling process though. Simply put, CR rating is assuming a party size of 3-5 (or is it 4-6?) as the D&D standard. Thus, if you are going to the Trollclaws solo at level ~17 you SHOULD struggle. The area and various interiors there are all CR16-20, so you should have at least 3 level 17 PC's partied up to take on the area. Of course there are power builds that can solo the area at 16, but that is a weakness of the D&D class system. "RP" builds are more than capable of handling the content of the server if they are properly prepared and either stick to area's 1 or 2 below their CR (maybe even 3-4 below CR with dynamic spawns) or do what D&D was designed for, group up with some other PC's!

[Steve]

Relevant, though somewhat dated:

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=54162

[casadechrisso]

As for the level 1 areas, I used to run circles in the bandit cave (northern farmlands), I found them easier and more satisfying to kill than skellies, there's loot plus even a lowbie quest attached to it.

Regarding Map pins for NPCs: Please don't! The map is cluttered enough in some places. I also don't really like giving NPCs names like "Quest Giver X". However, I think the Sshamath/Underdark method of simply giving quest NPCs a colored name works really well.

[ZestyDragon]

Maecius is an admin so he runs the server. That means he is responsible for all monster spawns. Thus Maecius' character is really a monster in disguise. This is an unfair advantage to the monsters! They have a god walking around on their side!. We must all find him and kill him before he units all the servers spawns.

[aaron22]

I could even see an OOC identifier like "Bartholomew (CL10)" to indicate the level of the quest offered so you do not have weird quest updates when time expires on them everytime you log in.

[Sun Wukong]

[*]Sign outside Maltz's Weapon Shop says: "Maltz' Weapon Shop." This should read "Maltz's Weapon Shop." On-examine description should also probably read something like "Arms, armor, and adventuring gear for all budgets at Maltz's Weapon Shop!" instead of ":for all your weapon needs." Maybe even a little note about how there's a "courier's wanted, inquire inside" advertisement posted on the sign, below the slogan?

Maltz' is fine.

'For all your weapon needs!' This is how you lure in customers in real life. What you suggested is more accurate in game wise, but the current one is more immersive. Thus it is a matter of immersion against accuracy. Not to mention that the shop used to be the only weapon shop in the game. It is a bit of server history right there.

'Couriers wanted, ask inside' could be added. But that would mean that someone has to touch up the quest dialogue too. Instead of hearing something in the docks, the player character should state that they saw the sign. A long time ago the Maltz' quest had a step that required you to speak to Captain Deudermont (or someone) before you could talk to Maltz about it. This was removed because of server crashes. I mean, you had to get to Eastern Baldur's Gate, then to its Docks, back to Eastern Baldur's Gate, into City Interiors, Back to Eastern Baldur's Gate, and finally out of city. The probability of crashing was something like 238% back then. (You could expect at least two crashes, third if you were unlucky.)

[Arn]

a gentleman in a dress named Mi-Le

*Adds "PvP-grief Leonard" to his to-do list*

[Steve]

it's going to be difficult to roleplay a "crafter" without mechanical crafting on the server. We'll want to try to introduce some sort of crafting at some point before 2020, in keeping with the server's strategic plan. A crafter doesn't need to be able to outshine the epic shops or anything, just produce interesting items with some level of customization.

I wonder if Maecius will quit, just like all the other Players, who were disappointed with their pipe dream!

[Sokolsky]

We'll want to try to introduce some sort of crafting at some point before 2020, in keeping with the server's strategic plan.

I have a feeling that a crafting system is going to be implemented way faster, now that Maecius plays a crafting character

[Ithilan]

I wonder if Maecius will quit, just like all the other Players, who were disappointed with their pipe dream!

It's more the nitpicking and very different treatment of players from the staff. One person can make a dimension wandering PC that visits Sildeyuir and other exotic locations that are extremely rare and largely unknown, while others are mostly pushed in the direction of playing a commoner.

[Maecius]

We'll want to try to introduce some sort of crafting at some point before 2020, in keeping with the server's strategic plan.

I have a feeling that a crafting system is going to be implemented way faster, now that Maecius plays a crafting character

Sadly, my playing a character who wants crafting in does not actually speed up the development process. The primary problem is balancing crafting for the server's power levels and economy, and so far that's where all of our initiatives have been sunk in the mud.

That's why I made the comment in my post that perhaps even "weak" crafting, way out of proportion with epic items and top-tier power levels, might be a starting point. But many on the dev side of things believe that crafters would want to be able to compete with epic, or at least high-tier, items in order to be a relevant option against just grinding for gold or for loot. And that's where it gets especially complicated in terms of balance.

I wonder if Maecius will quit, just like all the other Players, who were disappointed with their pipe dream!

It's more the nitpicking and very different treatment of players from the staff. One person can make a dimension wandering PC that visits Sildeyuir and other exotic locations that are extremely rare and largely unknown, while others are mostly pushed in the direction of playing a commoner.

I do not feel this is a very fair assessment of the DMs. The DMs are more strict in recent years than they used to be (particularly with regards to lore items), but I feel their strictness is more-or-less on the same level with everyone. I'm sure things do slip through the cracks, and I'm also sure that players sometimes play things, or start to play things, including unusual backgrounds, without first asking for permission to do so. But I don't think anyone's being intentionally favored. There are maybe a few cases of "the squeaky wheel gets the grease," but even there the DMs (from my observations of their efforts) try to be mindful of not always just answering direct requests at the expense of the players who almost never PM the DMs asking for anything -- and I've even seen the DMs tell players "hey, we've given you a lot of attention, and we need to focus on some of the others for a little while now" when players do make regular, repeated requests (usually to try and support their guilds, which do tend to get DM support a little more often than personal requests, if only because they inherently include and impact more players).

With regards to your specific example, the most recent request to play a character who visits Sildëyuir was actually denied by the DM Team. So your example is flawed right from the start. Though my best guess is that the RP you're referring to happened before the player was made aware that the background in question would not work out here, and before they adjusted it accordingly (and with an understanding of why it was being denied).

In general, if DMs become aware of someone playing an unusual background (especially one that wasn't approved), they'll try to gently correct it in keeping with the server's "play what's on your sheet" rules. It's why there are no werewolf or vampire PCs, etc.

They usually will offer alternatives that they think might work for the player, or accomplish at least vaguely similar ends, when a proposed background or request isn't approved "as written." And sometimes players will get to visit other planes or meet the avatars of gods or do other really neat, unusual things through DM campaigns and events, and those are accepted as part of their background moving forward because they "really happened."

But it's not so much about "forcing people to play commoners;" it's more about ensuring a fair(er) "starting point" where some PCs don't automatically have access to powers, authority, or abilities that are entirely beyond the scope of other PCs. Again, sometimes these advantages can be achieved (through gaining a title, through leading a powerful guild, through participating in a DM campaign), but even there, usually something that's really unique or special (achieving lichdom, for example) will 100% of the time require the player retire their character in order to achieve the completion of the character's story arc. So that no player is ever a demigod walking around completely unchallenged by either the NPCs or the other PCs.

Nevertheless, even though I feel the DMs do try very hard to ensure that things are as fair as they can be ("as they can be" because ensuring perfect fairness is an impossible task in a D&D world where everyone's at different levels, and can pursue and achieve often entirely different goals), things do slip through the cracks. So if you have examples of things that maybe weren't approved, or maybe were approved without realizing that it created an inconsistency or a problem, I'd ask you to take them to the DMs privately, not air them publicly, in keeping with the forum rules.

[tankteddy]

We'll want to try to introduce some sort of crafting at some point before 2020, in keeping with the server's strategic plan.

I have a feeling that a crafting system is going to be implemented way faster, now that Maecius plays a crafting character

Sadly, my playing a character who wants crafting in does not actually speed up the development process. The primary problem is balancing crafting for the server's power levels and economy, and so far that's where all of our initiatives have been sunk in the mud.

That's why I made the comment in my post that perhaps even "weak" crafting, way out of proportion with epic items and top-tier power levels, might be a starting point. But many on the dev side of things believe that crafters would want to be able to compete with epic, or at least high-tier, items in order to be a relevant option against just grinding for gold or for loot. And that's where it gets especially complicated in terms of balance.

In terms of Crafting, why not make The Focus feats combined with Craft skills/feat help with this.

Basicly, If you focus in being a crafter there are DC on items you are making based on related craft skill. Spell focus feats let you imbue an item strong then other players (go the basic +1 +2 +4 with each feat)

Could open up +5 Items for crafters, make it so the items can only be gained from a "Master Crafter" I would limit it to a basic such item like +5 with Keen or +5 with 1- 1d4 elemental damage nothing more powerful then that. This would let fighters have weapons and armor Equal to that of a Cleric. (Greater magic weapon and Magic Ves) A caster could still buff even better weapons Higher then this, but now people can sell stronger Items. (Better then epic shops)

Where you need to take care is make the spells to much and people are only going to want to buy those items.

Make it to weak then everyone would rather by from shops. also add items that favor odd end stats for better items would be nice to help with the mix, top example Belt of growth +3 STR and CON lets a lot of mages, rouges, Monks, Archers, and more start and end with 13 STR and Con for a well rounded Player Character.

[chad878262]

Sent a PM to Mac, but thought it might be an interesting point of discussion in this thread... Related to:

I also made it to level 6. It only took me a week.

I'm clearly a pro at this game.

He's made 5 posts, let's assume he has played somewhere in the neighborhood of ~10-15 hours. So he's gaining a level on average about once every 2 hours and seems to be enjoying this. Should he continue his experiment in to epics (I sincerely hope so!) it will be interesting to see how he feels about sitting at level 21 for about ~14+ hours of actual play (essentially the time it took him to go from 1-6, maybe more) and have the time only increase each level up from there (about 20 minutes or so more per level, up to about 20 hours from 29-30.) We all have our opinions of whether we think leveling is 'fine' as is or if it should be rebalanced. I'll be interested to see how Maecius feels about it, especially since there is really no slow change over. at ECL20 you are still gaining XP at essentially the same rate as you did at level 10... So it may take longer because you need more XP to level up, but when you hit ECL21 the XP is roughly cut in half, so it takes twice as long to get from 21 to 22 as it took to get from 20 to 21. Should be interesting to have that discussion if/when we get there.

[Maecius]

I haven't actually been tracking my time, and I don't know that I'll do so any time soon. But I'd say it took me maybe 6 hours to get to level 6, with frequent roleplaying inside the dungeons.

Nearly all of my dungeon time has been in parties (which speeds up kill rates and leveling rates), with RP reasons for my being there. I did run one dungeon solo a couple of times, however (the bandit cave in North Farmlands), and only had a good RP reason for being there the first time.

My total time in game "playing" the game is maybe 10 hours, if you count exploring, changing appearances, campfire roleplay, arguing with myself over where I'd put my skill points on level up, etc. If you count my bug checking, spell checking, and design checks as part of my playtime, you could maybe bump that to the higher side of your estimate (15 hours).

I will try to form an opinion on the pace of leveling, but I'm probably not the best person to base any actual "pacing" decisions on. Leveling is not very important to my enjoyment of a game, so I don't typically have strong opinions on the pace of leveling. Based on my personal observations and my experience fielding complaints from the community for the last ten years, I feel my experience here may be atypical, not classic, for most players. And therefore it's probably a bad benchmark.

For me, I do expect the hump will be if I get to level 21+, and I find that I can't explore new dungeons or new ways to engage the world. I'm happy to go to the same dungeon two or three or even four times, especially for roleplay reasons (or to finish exploring because I couldn't fully explore it on my first or second visit). But if I ever found myself, like some of our players, feeling like I have to visit the xvart village 10+ times to "catch up on levels" or something, I'd probably want to die! That's just my personal opinion/sentiment, though. I know some people really enjoy creating mayhem and cutting through monsters for hours at a time. I just prefer exploring, RPing, and engaging the world for my XP -- and for every game that I've ever played, that preference has always translated into my progressing in that game at a slower pace than everyone else I'm playing it with.

[Svabodnik]

[...]What's the purpose of the tripping hazards in the harbor district? Do they encourage roleplay? I don't mind them, but I'd rather see triggers that shine light on the world. Faceplanting players, while I suppose entertaining if you're walking beside a friend and they suddenly drop to the cobblestones, doesn't seem to serve much of a purpose.[...]

In much the same vein, what was the intention behind the Candlekeep boat interaction? A well-placed fast-travel node, next to a couple neat RP nooks (the nearby cave and lighthouse), but I can't wrap my mind around the point of the three randomly chosen interactions:

1: Try and wave down a passing ship, none appears.
2: Try and wave down a passing ship, the one that passes is too full.
3: Try and wave down a passing ship, find one heading to BG harbor.

I suppose it's meant to imply that from that place it would be difficult to find passage by sea, but I imagine it would be just as lore-friendly to simply have one interaction that spells it out. Something along the lines of "Setting adrift on the small vessel, you spend a few hours keeping a keen eye over the roiling waves. After what seems an eternity, you spot a distant white speck of raised sails cresting the horizon. Taking oar in hand, you earnestly drive the boat on an intercept course [...] etc."

Right now, what the interaction is instead: "Right click, 1, 1, Right click, 1, 1, Right click, 1, 1, Right click, 1, 1, Right click, 1, 1, Right click, 1, 1, Right click, 1, 1, Right click, 1, 1, Right click, 1, 1, Right click, 1, 1, Right click, 1, 1, Right click, 1, 1, Right click, 1, 2, 2!"

Added bonus if you are partied with someone else, and you get a successful interaction with the boat while they do not. One can simply imagine two rowboats neck-and-neck to reach the passing ship, and at just the last moment one of the competitors pulls ahead and leaps up to the railing. As the loser is turned away, the winner glances back to his former companion left bobbing on the waves. "See ya later, suckaaa."

Admittedly, using the boat doesn't actually take any more time than it does for a thief-acrobat to get up off their rear end after trying to step over a three-inch obstacle, but is likewise somewhat questionable.