Wilderness Stalker

[Whirlwind]

This class isn't terrible but it could be beefed up a bit in my opinion - wouldn't even have to be much.

First, fifth and ninth level give you nothing.

My suggestions:

* First level - Self Sufficient feat.

- To represent the fact the wilderness stalker can take care of themselves when out in nature.

* Fifth level - Woodland Stride feat.

- To represent the fact the wilderness stalker is confident moving through natural terrain.

* Ninth level - Resist Poison feat.

- To represent the fact the wilderness stalker has built up a heightened resistance to the poisonous flora and fauna out in the wilderness.

Alternatively fifth and ninth level could provide a bonus feat option.

[Tanlaus]

Wilderness Stalker is already full BAB with a 3/5 sneak attack profession, swift tracker, camouflage and a +2 AC bonus.

Nothing you’re proposing is crazy but it’s already a strong PRC. Also there are plenty of PRCs that don’t get something every level. Same with base classes.

Lastly you can get woodland stride with ranger levels and poison resist with assassin levels. So it’s also a little bit of what you want to balance this PRC with in terms of your overall build.

[Zkenic]

Is it a strong PRC? I cannot think of a single power build that uses Wilderness Stalker. I guess you can get 26BaB sneak attack builds with Wilderness Stalker, but really none of them are worth the huge loss of SA dice you get from full stealth builds, and its not really worth going if you are going a non-SA HiPSter build.

[Tanlaus]

Is it a strong PRC? I cannot think of a single power build that uses Wilderness Stalker. I guess you can get 26BaB sneak attack builds with Wilderness Stalker, but really none of them are worth the huge loss of SA dice you get from full stealth builds, and its not really worth going if you are going a non-SA HiPSter build.

I know a few HiPSter builds that use it. The high BAB plus sneak progression is a strong combination. Add three levels of Bodyguard for more full BAB + SA progression. IB levels will give you full BAB and an AC boost that stacks, plus the feint bonus which allows for lower sneak dice if you're landing more. Adding TA gives you full BAB, more AC and springboard which again, allows for a loos of sneak dice if your opponents are stunned.

I agree with you in that I wouldn't say the PRC is OP but it can be used to build some pretty strong combinations as is.

I think my overall point is, if you are adding some rogue abilities to a ranger type then you get woodland stride with R 7. And if you're looking for poison resistance you get that with assassin builds, which WS combines nicely with for the AB boost. So character builds already have directions to go in to get both abilities without having them all granted in a single PRC.

[Whirlwind]

You've changed my mind on this somewhat, Tanlaus.

I still feel it lacks a certain je ne sais quois, but it's more decent than I first thought.

I guess it's a 'me problem', seeing levels where I don't receive a bonus.

It probably doesn't help that my underdark druid alt uses cave stalker and they get something at every level (and it feels nicely unique with the spider shape change stuff too).

[Tanlaus]

You've changed my mind on this somewhat, Tanlaus.

I still feel it lacks a certain je ne sais quois, but it's more decent than I first thought.

I guess it's a 'me problem', seeing levels where I don't receive a bonus.

It probably doesn't help that my underdark druid alt uses cave stalker and they get something at every level (and it feels nicely unique with the spider shape change stuff too).

Believe me I go back and forth on balance issues all the time. So I know where you’re coming from.

Also cavestalker is a great and often underutilized PRC. The thing about it though is it’s pretty much only useful for UD rangers and druids so the power building potential isn’t really there.

One thing I’ve learned from many a QC conversation (from people much more versed in the game mechanics than I am) is that it’s not always just the class but how it synergies with other classes that can take a seemingly small change and create some monster builds. It’s something I’m still learning.

It also just happens that lately I’ve been running around with a UD sneak group where two of the characters have Wilderness Stalker in their builds. So I’ve been looking at a lot of WS builds lately

[Steve]

The problem with WS is when you read the name you think “ohh! Bad arse Ranger PrC,” but in actuality, it isn’t a good PrC for a Ranger at all!

It does grant nice perks to a Rogue-based build that wants to RP being the outdoorsy type, no doubt. But...I’d almost want to take 10 Ranger levels than 10 WS levels.

I just always get annoyed by that Elf with Spear image on the wiki, cause that is like the least likely weapon any build fully utilizing WS would use!

[Rhifox]

It does grant nice perks to a Rogue-based build that wants to RP being the outdoorsy type, no doubt.

But for this, I'd really rather just have Wilderness Rogue tbh.

[Steve]

We would all universally love the ability for a Rogue to choose HiPS as one of its special abilities at 10/13/15/etc!!!

[Zkenic]

6/10 ranger casting progression? That would be my recommendation. Bam!

[Tanlaus]

We would all universally love the ability for a Rogue to choose HiPS as one of its special abilities at 10/13/15/etc!!!

The problem with pure rogue or pure phantom gets HiPS without a PRC, in my opinion- and I did play both to 30- is that they are the builds that can get ISA early on in epic feat progressions allowing for some pretty insane sneak dice, especially considering the bonus feats. My phantom had (er, still had I just don’t play him) 21d6 sneak attack with ptwf. Can only get that with pure rogue or phantom.

HiPS is great for a shadow dancer that takes a lot to qualify for and doesn’t give you any bonus offense for 10 levels of progression.

Feels more powerful on assassin that gives you death attack and a useful spell book. But if you take that away assassins would not survive in pve at all. So I’m not advocating it.

[matelener]

This is not a ranger PRC, so I wouldn't try to go that way. IMO, this class needs better incentives for level 10. Also, could use a little bit flavour here and there aligning with the theme, and the OP's suggestions are pretty good.

Let's take a cookie cutter WS build: 11 rogue / 9 assassin / 7 WS / 3 bodyguard and compare it to 19 rogue / 8 assassin / 3 bodyguard

(More or less)

You lose:
- qualification feats to epic dodge
- bonus epic feat
- 1d6 SA

You gain:
- swift tracking and camouflage
- 1 ab and 1 ac.
- some fort save

Do I think the trade is worth it? Nope. But either character is very playable

[Tanlaus]

6/10 ranger casting progression? That would be my recommendation. Bam!

That’s not a bad idea. I guess it becomes a question of trade offs. For rouge, as is, you need to spend a feat to get tracking and out points into survival. In return you get more hp, high BAB, camo and swift tracker. But you give up half your skill points, 2/5 sneak dice progression, and bonus feats.

Rangers don’t need to do anything special to qualify. They give up 2 skill points per level (with the bonus of opening up tumble) lose spell progression and 2 FE for 3d6 sneak attack... 2d6 if you go 21/9 for ptwf...

Yeah in the balance I feel like 3/5 spell progression would be a good way to help make it more appealing to rangers but not enhance rogue builds. Though I wonder if it would even be worth it still.

[Zkenic]

The class requires 1d6 sneak attack, so you cant do 21/9. If you really want PTWF you'd have to do something like 21/3/6.

[Tanlaus]

The class requires 1d6 sneak attack, so you cant do 21/9. If you really want PTWF you'd have to do something like 21/3/6.

Oh, right! I forgot about the SA.

It almost feels like wilderness stalker should be a kit similar to Hunter ranger. But trading spells for SA instead of traps. Like the melee version of the Hunter kit....

But I digress.

Maybe there’s a way to allow it to progress Ranger feats (like the archery or twf progression). So you could go 20/10 and it’s just trading spells for some SA damage?