Perma-death/Mark of Death improvements

[PaulImposteur]

Mark of Death is a really neat concept that utterly fails because of how difficult and grindy the server is.
A simple proposal I'd like to make where you'd acquire ALL xp, combat and RP-xp at four times the rate while having the Mark of Death.

Of course these characters should also be completely locked out of using RCR in any way. This may encourage more people to roll up toons with this feature and give deaths an impact again. I've tried 3 toons with no muling and because xp is so slow, and everything is so deadly, I couldn't get past level 6 without being perm'd.

Right now it is a frustrating experience instead of being its own unique and rewarding experience. Reaching a higher level will let these characters come and go, giving a sense of actual 'loss' to the server, when people use that scroll and realize it was for naught.

[Steve]

Sure, it would be nice if the Mark of Death/perma toons got a perk.

But based on what your experience was, I'd say Bragging Rights to get to Epic Levels on a MoD/permer toon is something special, i.e., a Big Perk!

[Rhifox]

I like this. Would make that system essentially work as a great 'NPC maker' kind of system that lets you level characters fast but they're short term by being perma-death enabled.

[izzul]

I dont want to say i have bragging rights,

nor do i want to say that im bragging,

but after few days it was introduced, i lvl'd a permadeath PC from 1-30 in 16 days
only dying once by opening the trapped chest in Reaching Woods.
and i updated it to Dae everyday with screenshot, and to everyone in general discord.





screenie shows the first day i picked the perm feat, the 2nd one shows 528,000xp

i dont think the server need anything faster lvling.
the biggest problem i face was during 100% RCR, i cant change anything about her(found a new RIG) because its perma PC. so now i have another one(that i lvl from 1-30), with this one a lvl 30 mule.

edit: also only use gear from epic shop Ex: +4 STR glove, swap belt of growth from epic shop, cloak from epic shop, boot and helmet from epic shop, weapon and shield from epic shop, RIG amulet, swap glove from Doron Amar epic shop, RIG rings. and consumables.

[MrSmith]

i lvl'd a permadeath PC from 1-30 in 16 days

Hells... I will brag for you! 30 levels in 16 days!? That is an inconceivable (to me) accomplishment considering how significant the XP drops off at/after the 20th level. No easy feat to say the least. Well done!

[Azroth]

i dont think the server need anything faster lvling.

It doesn't. The block others have is more often a personal issue more than a server issue.

Be it build and gear choices. Mental blocks on mechanics. Perhaps the build one uses needs a leveling partner, etc.

And just general laziness is another factor I found.

Then we have to factor in how much time a player has to themslevs as a human and or are they utilizing that time in a productive manner to get to a higher level.


I for one don't really focus much on grinding as much anymore myself, so I fall into the category group where I just focus a lot more on going out of my way and meeting others IC in RP (not combat related stuff) .

[Xorena]

Everything isn't just leveling to 30 as fast as you can. It took me literal years before I got my first 30 (I was not playing the entire time and often prioritized RP over levels).

[PaulImposteur]

It's about encouraging the feature being used, I wouldn't make a perma-death character to grind gear or money, that'd be way to stressful. Personally I like seeing new faces, just as much as familiar ones while I'm out RPing. There probably won't be many people utilizing this feature, but that doesn't mean it won't contribute to RP from those who do.

Everything isn't just leveling to 30 as fast as you can. It took me literal years before I got my first 30 (I was not playing the entire time and often prioritized RP over levels).

It took me 10 years to get my first level 30, which was this year lol. This isn't about getting to level 30 as fast as possible, it's about having characters that grow fast, and die, hopefully leaving an impact on the server in their impermanence. It's about opening up that RP by encouraging a feature that can net an interesting RP that is loss.

People are scared to kill a toon after investing a lot of time, but the mark of death starts you at a mind-state of knowing death will come eventually. By offering an upfront benefit, it may attract a few people! Probably not many because it is still far far more beneficial to have unlimited lives and just grind a bit slower. Especially when there's a knowing risk of just lag/misfortune can end your character.

I dont want to say i have bragging rights,

nor do i want to say that im bragging,

but

....

That's rad, I wish I was better at the game to have achieved that. I kept getting decimated every time a boss mob popped up. 16 Days is madness, I can't imagine that level of efficiency, never mind the sheer willpower to push through that.

I like this. Would make that system essentially work as a great 'NPC maker' kind of system that lets you level characters fast but they're short term by being perma-death enabled.

This is the main reason I would like it to an extent. I've perma-killed three toons this year, mostly to help evil toons actually commit some real evil-deeds (Murder!) I like to roll up side toons that can be killed and thrown away to help others with expressing their motives. I didn't need the death-mark system to do this, but I'd see it as a boon in aiding me with another tool.

It'd be interesting if there was two options, maybe the trade off is you get even less deaths allowed if you take the XP boost?

[Hoihe]

It sets a bad precedent to reward and encourage this sort of thing any shape or form.

This mechanics is acceptable for as long as it is little more than a mechanical enforcement of personal challenges for those who cannot or do not want to keep track of such themselves.

Modifying the game experience in any way beyond that alome is a bad precedent. Actually rewarding it (faster levelling) is hands down a bad precedent.

[Steve]

In principle it’s kinda strange to have a Permadeath system in the same game experience as No Permadeath system. The only real benefit or experience gained here is the challenge of mechanically “beating” the content, which is easy as puck if you twink, and even easier if you’ve played the Server for a year+.

And having a mechanical challenge like this on a RP Server?!? Sensical? I’m not so sure. Don’t get me wrong—the idea is fun and the challenge can be rewarding if you like trying to “win” in this way.

But the real value to and in BGTSCC is the reward(s) of and from Role-play, both intrinsic and gained rewards, and this has NOTHING to do with mechanics. Namely because conflict is agreement only and it’s 100% possible to simply avoid any Character/player you don’t gel with.

Stakes are higher for Mark of Death toons, but unless it’s applied to all toons, it really has little reason to be given more rewards or value. In the end, the rewards we are all seeking are locked in a safebox and only DMs have the key. Otherwise, this server is just an advanced chat room.

[EasternCheesE]

As soon as few simple things are followed, i don't see how permadeath PC boosts can set a bad precedent or worsen player experience:
1) Permadeath PC can only be RcRd into Permadeath PC.
2) Permadeath PC bonuses are related to experience gain, but not mechanical advantage
3) Setting player's PC as permadeath one is only possible by player themselves and only on their own free will.

If permadeath PC gets 50% more XP from grinding, it doesn't change the life of non-permadeath players at all. In return, people willing to accept the challenge, get a bonus of less grind needed to achieve same things non-permadeath player needs.
In fact, permadeath "reality" is something that should be factored into regular PC RP as well. Our PCs are not aware they are immortal and death is just a walk to fugue with small xp penalty. Though, i saw and see numerous situations where players, knowing their PCs are immortal, show very unrealistic behavior when posed to lethal threat.
For someone who chooses to play Permadeath PC, such things actually become real and they are forced (as they picked it willingly) to enforce life-preservation instinct into their RP as they know their PC can die and his story can end right at that moment.
Doesn't mean every PC should be permadeath PC, but existence of permadeath PC helps to fell things more real and if giving such PCs more XP will encourage people to use it more often, it'd make game only better, not worse.

I don't see anything about it being "a bad precedent", please clarify your words. This topic is not about "Make everyone Perma", it's about "Let people, who chose their PC to be perma, get some QoL stuff as a reward for accepting the challenge".

[renshouj]

I'd like to approach this, briefly, in another perspective that was already mentioned:

This idea, or a version of it, is perfect for facilitating player-conducted "plots". Instead of thinking about it as just a mechanical challenge that doesn't really have a place in an RP environment, I like thinking about it as a tool for easier access to mid level impermanent characters to develop player driven plots. Not a necessary tool, but a tool nonetheless. What are the true downsides to this? It's not like it would be enforced, but simply something else to broaden player options.

I might be thinking too idealistically, but just thought to give that perspective again

[mastajabba]

I play all my chars with a 3 times dead not resurrected = character death. I don’t think Myrkull would just keep sending people back over and over.

I do think the idea of Perma-death would be nice a lot of people RP their chars as demigods as if. Be nice to bring back some humbleness back into the player side.

[DaloLorn]

As soon as few simple things are followed, i don't see how permadeath PC boosts can set a bad precedent or worsen player experience:
1) Permadeath PC can only be RcRd into Permadeath PC.
2) Permadeath PC bonuses are related to experience gain, but not mechanical advantage
3) Setting player's PC as permadeath one is only possible by player themselves and only on their own free will.

If permadeath PC gets 50% more XP from grinding, it doesn't change the life of non-permadeath players at all. In return, people willing to accept the challenge, get a bonus of less grind needed to achieve same things non-permadeath player needs.
In fact, permadeath "reality" is something that should be factored into regular PC RP as well. Our PCs are not aware they are immortal and death is just a walk to fugue with small xp penalty. Though, i saw and see numerous situations where players, knowing their PCs are immortal, show very unrealistic behavior when posed to lethal threat.
For someone who chooses to play Permadeath PC, such things actually become real and they are forced (as they picked it willingly) to enforce life-preservation instinct into their RP as they know their PC can die and his story can end right at that moment.
Doesn't mean every PC should be permadeath PC, but existence of permadeath PC helps to fell things more real and if giving such PCs more XP will encourage people to use it more often, it'd make game only better, not worse.

I don't see anything about it being "a bad precedent", please clarify your words. This topic is not about "Make everyone Perma", it's about "Let people, who chose their PC to be perma, get some QoL stuff as a reward for accepting the challenge".

TBH, for long-term characters, I prefer to divorce the risk of permadeath from mechanical considerations. I would have accepted losing Rinn if she died under the right circumstances and wasn't raised (which almost happened a few times already!), but I would not have been at all satisfied with losing her to a random PvE accident. Virin and Ilhara have, similarly, found themselves in a number of situations from which I thought it plausible they would never return, barring random offscreen rescues if I ever felt like playing them again.

Similarly, as the person who's killed two of the three PCs Paul mentioned in an earlier post, I tried to leave a little wiggle-room for offscreen resurrection, but was quite aware in both cases that they were likely dying for good. (And was, in fact, ICly maneuvering to keep them dead by dumping their corpses out of the way to minimize the odds of recovery.)

I'd like to approach this, briefly, in another perspective that was already mentioned:

This idea, or a version of it, is perfect for facilitating player-conducted "plots". Instead of thinking about it as just a mechanical challenge that doesn't really have a place in an RP environment, I like thinking about it as a tool for easier access to mid level impermanent characters to develop player driven plots. Not a necessary tool, but a tool nonetheless. What are the true downsides to this? It's not like it would be enforced, but simply something else to broaden player options.

I might be thinking too idealistically, but just thought to give that perspective again

If you ask me, this is the true value of Paul's proposal. More rapidly creating throwaway characters which can then die (or not die) as part of a larger plot. Not mechanically enforcing the frailty of our PCs' lives, but enabling the creation of pseudo-NPCs without the assistance of the DM team. Whether they are monsters for our heroes to smite, or innocent souls for our villains to destroy, the server is sorely lacking in such vulnerable figures.

Of course, there is a flip side to my argument. Permadeath PCs cannot, IIRC, be killed off by another PC, which would mean that the mechanical debuffs are completely divorced from the RP the buffs are supposed to foster. Similarly, as noted in my reply to EasternCheese's post, one can still be recovered after a long time purely by chance.

I play all my chars with a 3 times dead not resurrected = character death. I don’t think Myrkull would just keep sending people back over and over.

I do think the idea of Perma-death would be nice a lot of people RP their chars as demigods as if. Be nice to bring back some humbleness back into the player side.

I view Myrkul as a facade over a purely OOC mechanic - the ability to retcon away the events leading to your TPK, or give yourself an offscreen escape or recovery by NPCs. When I'm soloing, I'm not even that generous in my treatment of the Fugue - I outright refuse to acknowledge the death, unless I believe I can get some RP value out of it. (I usually can't.)

[Hoihe]

As soon as few simple things are followed, i don't see how permadeath PC boosts can set a bad precedent or worsen player experience:
1) Permadeath PC can only be RcRd into Permadeath PC.
2) Permadeath PC bonuses are related to experience gain, but not mechanical advantage
3) Setting player's PC as permadeath one is only possible by player themselves and only on their own free will.

If permadeath PC gets 50% more XP from grinding, it doesn't change the life of non-permadeath players at all. In return, people willing to accept the challenge, get a bonus of less grind needed to achieve same things non-permadeath player needs.
In fact, permadeath "reality" is something that should be factored into regular PC RP as well. Our PCs are not aware they are immortal and death is just a walk to fugue with small xp penalty. Though, i saw and see numerous situations where players, knowing their PCs are immortal, show very unrealistic behavior when posed to lethal threat.
For someone who chooses to play Permadeath PC, such things actually become real and they are forced (as they picked it willingly) to enforce life-preservation instinct into their RP as they know their PC can die and his story can end right at that moment.
Doesn't mean every PC should be permadeath PC, but existence of permadeath PC helps to fell things more real and if giving such PCs more XP will encourage people to use it more often, it'd make game only better, not worse.

I don't see anything about it being "a bad precedent", please clarify your words. This topic is not about "Make everyone Perma", it's about "Let people, who chose their PC to be perma, get some QoL stuff as a reward for accepting the challenge".

Gating anything behind permadeath opens the door for gating more things. Sure, "it's more experience" now, but just looking at how governmental politics go for tax breaks ("People who have children are given a tax break!" there's nothing wrong with that. A year or two pass, and suddenly everyone has their taxes increased, returning those who got the tax break to the baseline, while making everyone else worse off. Complaining about this is met with, "just have children/marry" which in our case would be: XP rate reduced across the board, and complaining about it will go "just make a new permadeath character!/take MoD when rcring!" We already have people saying, "just make an alt" if you voice the lack of areas to loot as a level 30. People on the staff saying that).

It's a tried and true method of manipulation and control to give something optional a "harmless benefit", then after it's forgotten about punish everyone "equally" with something bad that just so happens to leave the group that was given a "harmless benefit" effectively unaffected.