DM Slavery Ruling

[Zombniac]

I think the server should retain its status as PG-13, but a no slavery rule in place when there's a place for drow, especially Lolthite drow, seems strange. Do something like not allowing adult/sexual themes between a slave and slave master and any other applicable rulings instead of keeping it outright banned.

[selhan]

As much as I think this would open more Rp opportunity, I highly doubt it. The main problem in general is players actions create/ make the rules on the server. When players dont act accordingly and pull some sick or stupid stunt, the blocks fall in place filling the holes that are normally handled respectfully and responsibly like some grown folks. I for one would like to see the rating leave its PG 13 standing to adult. But lets be honest, you really got some sickos behind pixels that breaks the game for others. Sometimes bleedin into OOC drama/trauma.

The term "Be mindful of your RP" is vast. Places like the Darkwoods, where you see slave npcs and fighting pens for slaves, where probably there for use. But once again Im gonna take the shot in the dark and assume dumb dumbs and idiots overstep things and their actions probably caused the no Slave rp rule. I've played on a Hardcore rule server before and drows kidnapping surfacers and selling them for labor was dark and fun for some folks. And it gave alot of other rp opportunities like rescue attempts, break outs etc. But when a pc is just gonna spend hours on end rping raping the person day in and out, that makes a person question their humanity, and makes the player victim very uncomfortable. Kidnap my pc and force him to work at your bar in chains and hey Im all for it. But your always gonna have some dumb dumb sicko that wants to go further than that. And the risk is real, and the next thing you know the server needs to get shut down because someone got all Woke on the server.

It all starts within the Community. Its OUR Community, everybody should take a good care of it. Its like your neighborhood, you love it, then take care of it. Dont let it become ghetto.

[Zombniac]

As much as I think this would open more Rp opportunity, I highly doubt it. The main problem in general is players actions create/ make the rules on the server. When players dont act accordingly and pull some sick or stupid stunt, the blocks fall in place filling the holes that are normally handled respectfully and responsibly like some grown folks. I for one would like to see the rating leave its PG 13 standing to adult. But lets be honest, you really got some sickos behind pixels that breaks the game for others. Sometimes bleedin into OOC drama/trauma.

The term "Be mindful of your RP" is vast. Places like the Darkwoods, where you see slave npcs and fighting pens for slaves, where probably there for use. But once again Im gonna take the shot in the dark and assume dumb dumbs and idiots overstep things and their actions probably caused the no Slave rp rule. I've played on a Hardcore rule server before and drows kidnapping surfacers and selling them for labor was dark and fun for some folks. And it gave alot of other rp opportunities like rescue attempts, break outs etc. But when a pc is just gonna spend hours on end rping raping the person day in and out, that makes a person question their humanity, and makes the player victim very uncomfortable. Kidnap my pc and force him to work at your bar in chains and hey Im all for it. But your always gonna have some dumb dumb sicko that wants to go further than that. And the risk is real, and the next thing you know the server needs to get shut down because someone got all Woke on the server.

It all starts within the Community. Its OUR Community, everybody should take a good care of it. Its like your neighborhood, you love it, then take care of it. Dont let it become ghetto.

That all makes sense and I'd be safe to guess that the no PC slavery rule is in place because of player history. The best and most realistic way that we should see that rule being revised is by retaining the PG-13 rule and having clear guidelines, like the part about ZERO romantic or sexual themes between slave and slave master(s). Also the idea that the slave players are still very much in control of their character and that they can absolutely say no to something that they're uncomfortable with. I've played on a server much like that where it is PG-13 and does work. But you might sadly be right.

[Endelyon]

That all makes sense and I'd be safe to guess that the no PC slavery rule is in place because of player history. The best and most realistic way that we should see that rule being revised is by retaining the PG-13 rule and having clear guidelines, like the part about ZERO romantic or sexual themes between slave and slave master(s). Also the idea that the slave players are still very much in control of their character and that they can absolutely say no to something that they're uncomfortable with. I've played on a server much like that where it is PG-13 and does work. But you might sadly be right.

It's really not a sex thing, the rule was changed because we don't want players put in a situation where they might feel pressured into something they feel uncomfortable with "to be a good RPer." Just because they're physically capable of saying no doesn't mean the social pressure to agree to the RP won't be there.

The "player history" part is true enough but the reality of it is that it's the history of how they've treated the slave PC's player in these situations, not the specific RP they did with it. Considering the amount of disciplinary actions and OOC player conflicts it constantly brought to the table, at the time the decision was made it simply didn't feel worth supporting even if it means that Lolthites lose out on one (relatively small) aspect of their RP.

Furthermore the general notion of slavery is something that, despite being part of the canonical FR landscape, has real life history and connotations that are extremely negative for some of our players. Speaking candidly to my own personal opinion, just because something exists in FR is not a good enough reason to highlight it and allow it in RP on a server where 13 year old children are allowed to come play.

It would be less problematic from my perspective to disallow Lolthite RP entirely than to go back to allowing master/slave RP--not that I'm suggesting we do this, as I think it's perfectly possible to RP a Lolthite without having PC slaves and the current status quo basically works fine. Just write it as a draconian leader/subordinate relationship instead of explicitly master/slave and it accomplishes basically the same thing narratively with only the tiniest change.

[Ghost]

Peer pressure is a thing that happens. I'd rather not open the avenue.

[Zombniac]

The only thing I can type is that if players can't discern the difference between in-character and out-of-character (fantasy and reality, video game versus real life), then they just need to know that those two things are the complete opposite. Roleplaying is playing a role that isn't real. They need to know that their character is theirs and they have the option and responsibility to say when they're uncomfortable and don't want something to happen. This is paramount and I assume is expected of players in any other scenario beyond hypothetical PC slavery rules.

Forgotten Realms has themes that children just shouldn't be faced with. It boils down to whether or not the server admins and DMs want to keep a completely loyal Forgotten Realms Underdark experience for players or to provide to a younger audience. Changes like this make me feel more disincentivized to play as a drow, because slavery is a big concept in drow society. Drow and the monsters they live around are vile creatures that do immeasurably wicked things. I'm not proposing we allow ERP or extensive gruesome violence and detail in the slightest, but at least give Underdark players more to work with if you're going to keep a space for these players.

This place part kind of deviates from the Rules category but is related. I thought it was better that I just add it here instead of making a new thread entirely. I'm sorry if it isn't. But I started as a neutral svirfneblin that follows Callarduran Smoothhands. But there's no starting point for them besides in the same city as their enemies, drow and other monsters. The clergy of Callarduran Smoothhands is:

highly organized, so that clans could share information and coordinate against the dangers of the Underdark, such as the drow.

My point is that it's just off that these two groups are friendly my default and that there's no tension between them. Monsters are dangerous to svirfneblin, they enslave and kill them. I read about Rockrun and how it changed, and it'd be really nice if deep gnomes can start somewhere other than Sshamath. Like in a tiny village dedicated to them, near an entrance to the Underdark or in a surface gnome or dwarf settlement.

I have some other feedback related to the Underdark if you want to hear it. This server is really awesome which is why I wanted to take the time to let you know my opinions and concerns. Thank you.

[DM Winter]

My point is that it's just off that these two groups are friendly my default and that there's no tension between them. Monsters are dangerous to svirfneblin, they enslave and kill them. I read about Rockrun and how it changed, and it'd be really nice if deep gnomes can start somewhere other than Sshamath. Like in a tiny village dedicated to them, near an entrance to the Underdark or in a surface gnome or dwarf settlement.

addressing this

There is a gnome-exclusive village done by AsuraKing (a prolific gnome player ) that is waiting to go in, builders are finishing it up

[JustAnotherGuy]

It boils down to whether or not the server admins and DMs want to keep a completely loyal Forgotten Realms Underdark experience for players or to provide to a younger audience.

We already don't have a completely loyal FR experience. We have (imo) as near as one can have given the interactions that players have. If we wanted a completely FR experience, then we would just need to read a book, and not play a game. No game will ever stay 100% true to story, as there is player agency. Aside from this, if I recall correctly, the server has to maintain a PG13 rating. I forget the exact reasons, as it has been years since I've seen a thread on it. But it has to do with something important. As in we could get shut down if we didn't. Maybe that's changed, maybe it hasn't. I, for one, am glad for the PG13 rating.

I'm not proposing we allow ERP or extensive gruesome violence and detail in the slightest, but at least give Underdark players more to work with if you're going to keep a space for these players.

I would propose that slavery itself is "extensive gruesome violence and detail". It is literally holding someone against their will, and asserting your dominance over them at the threat of violence. Taking away someone's will is about the most violent thing that can be done.

Further, it's already been touched upon; but if someone's toon is a slave, and their master commands them to do something that the player is not comfortable with, then there is a huge pressure to do it anyway. If they do not do it, then they are no longer RPing. Yet if they acquiesce, we have just forced a player to do something they are not comfortable with.

There are servers that allow slavery. If slavery is a must to someone, I suggest they play where they'd be happier. It's not for everyone, and I am glad it is not on this server.

[Zombniac]

My point is that it's just off that these two groups are friendly my default and that there's no tension between them. Monsters are dangerous to svirfneblin, they enslave and kill them. I read about Rockrun and how it changed, and it'd be really nice if deep gnomes can start somewhere other than Sshamath. Like in a tiny village dedicated to them, near an entrance to the Underdark or in a surface gnome or dwarf settlement.

addressing this

There is a gnome-exclusive village done by AsuraKing (a prolific gnome player ) that is waiting to go in, builders are finishing it up

Nice!!!

[Hydros]

It's really not a sex thing, the rule was changed because we don't want players put in a situation where they might feel pressured into something they feel uncomfortable with "to be a good RPer." Just because they're physically capable of saying no doesn't mean the social pressure to agree to the RP won't be there.

Peer pressure is a thing that happens. I'd rather not open the avenue.

I entirely agree with the above. I've played on a NWN1 server with a mechanical slavery system for years, and the DMs have has to be extremely hard with enforcing the rules to prevent these issues, to the point of over-enforcing sometimes just because of claims, due to it being such a serious issue, and I'd say Ghost has it right on the head with not wanting to even open up that path, it'd be a lot of work for the DM team to keep under control, and there's likely much better things for them to be spending time on.

[Zombniac]

I have several thousand hours in NWN:EE and NWN 2 persistent worlds and have not once ever heard about an issue pertaining to this. I won't ask about any in particular for privacy reasons. I'm sure there's been problems, but it's definitely not rampant. That's it from me, good night.

[Flatted Fifth]

My completely unsolicited 2 cents:

If two players decide between themselves that they want to RP one being the other's slave, it should be allowed if and only if that rp is
A: Agreed to by both players
B: Non-sexual
C: Underdark-only
D: The "slave" character must be created from scratch AS a slave in the underdark, not an adventurer who is captured because that itself sets a precedence that I don't think is healthy. The slave character's background story MUST be "a slave born of slaves" because otherwise it becomes a plot hole that drow pcs cant just capture other pcs without their permission. For story sake, just say adventurers are too much trouble to make good slaves. They didn't become adventurers because they know their place and don't cause trouble.

However, drow pc's kidnapping or initiating such things against others should be completely forbidden and I don't care how much in keeping with canon storylines that is. There should never even be the slightest hint of peer pressuring another into any situation that they might not be comfortable with. Like if my lvl 18 genasi is found in the titanfist mines by a lvl 30 drow, that drow should not be allowed to say "be my slave or die".

[Endelyon]

I have some other feedback related to the Underdark if you want to hear it. This server is really awesome which is why I wanted to take the time to let you know my opinions and concerns. Thank you.

We definitely welcome player feedback (on this matter and others). I didn't mean for my response to come across as condescending or shut down the discussion, I was just trying to explain as best as I can why the rules (which previously allowed this interaction) were changed to disallow it.

Glad to hear you're enjoying your RP here!

[selhan]

I agree with Endelyon and likewise, I ain't mean to sound as if Im all for shutting this sort of idea down. I for one is all for anything RP and I admit, I barely rp down in the UD on BG. I dont even have a UD character, but with my surfacer I had the experience over the years to have some rp down there for reasons and it has been great. But Im not familiar with the culture of Ssamath. But the idea of only trying to "One up" on the next drow player seems like that's gonna play out fast.

No wonder so many got alts down there.

[whatsittoya]

I don't think it's fair to suggest that people who aren't comfortable with depictions of slavery have some kind of difficulty separating IC and OOC or reality from fantasy.

As a for instance, I'm fully aware it's not real, and yet I still don't want to see its depiction and I definitely don't want to in any way participate in it.

For much the same reason that graphic torture and stuff is verboten, really: a detailed description of a surgical vivisection is not something I want to be exposed to.

It doesn't have to be real to be ugly, and one doesn't have to mistakenly believe it to be real to want no part in it and to want no part in a system that supports it.