Suggestion: DM support system

[Almarea90]

Hello everyone.
Following the discussion about the Status Quo started by Tekill a few ideas were thrown about making DM lives easier when it comes to tracking and noticing people's progress or simply focusing on events and it was deemed appropriate by some to start a fresh thread about this.

I am not usually a topic starter but since I am one of those who threw ideas in I might as well do it. Plus work is dead on a Saturday morning.

I will list below the ideas that were proposed and update the list as new ideas are posted, then I will elaborate on my idea in more detail. If I miss any ideas please let me know.

1) Tekill proposed to implement a new role of administrative DM, who as the name suggests would take care of the administration and record keeping tasks, while freeing time for the normal DM for storytelling and events. About this I leave the floor to Tekill to further elaborate on his idea.

2) Zhazz proposed to implement in the game a system of NPC that are able to collect players resources and keep track of them for the DM team. AoS then chimed in suggesting how this can be implemented in game, but they would have to explain in more details as I understand development as a dead hamster understands quantum physics.

3) AsuraKing suggested a system of record keeping for the DM to track who joined their events.

4) I suggested a system of assistance and progress tracking carried out by players (ideally those who already know how to move on the server) in order to help inducting other players to the events and tracking progress. This system would be complementary to the automated one proposed by Zhazz.


Player-DM assistance system

I am not a DM so I would kindly invite someone from the team and further clarify the situation if what I say is incomplete or incorrect, but from what I could observe as a player DM events are structured as follows:

1) Origin event: which can be either an in game event or a rumor on the forum which sets the scene for the incoming plot.

2) Follow Up phase: where the rumors spread, characters investigate and gather resources/make plans to further their goal.

3) Story continuation: where the DM follows up with the story and the players efforts come to fruition. This phase is usually followed by a more or less long repetition of point 2 and point three

4) Conclusion: the final event that wraps everything up.

From what I have noticed part 2) is probably the most tedious and time consuming because:

- Everyone and their grandmother spam the DM inbox with follow up requests, oftentimes different groups ask different questions.

- if the phase is done in game, the DM might have to spend entire days meeting the interested players oftentimes to give the same information to various groups.

- It may take a long time to accomodate players who are in different timezones

- The DM will have to consume time to keep track of the progress.

So this perhaps might be mitigated by outsourcing phase 2 to players.

How can we do this?

When a plot starts, some players can volunteer their characters as plot aids. They would essentially act as intermediates between the DM and the players, gaining more tools but renouncing to any active role and reward in the plot. Also care must be taken to ensure there is cover for all factions and timezones. Of course how this exactly is done would have to be further discussed and potentially refined on a case by case basis but here are some ideas:

1) The assisting character can gather the resources and convey them to the DM;
2) Meet with all the interested players, gather all their queries and then meet with the various NPC and convey them so that the DM has to RP one or two times giving the same answer instead of 10,000;
3) I am unsure if this is doable, the DM will have to evaluate. Before or after gathering the players initial queries perhaps the DM can provide the assisting players with a table of information with tiered DC. This way the assisting player can request the participants to roll and give information from the table based on the result. Of course the former will screenshots the rolls.
4) The assisting player can take note of the participants efforts and convey them all together to the DM.
5) Anything the DM can think of within the limits of common sense.

To give a practical example.

Let's say that DM X starts a plot. In the starting event a ship sinks in the Sea of Swords.
Let's say that Sel (and whoever else wants to do that) volunteers himself and his fine establishment to assist in the plot.

1) After discussing the details with DM X, the NPC Captain Peg-leg takes residence at the Broken Goblet and informs Sel that he is interested in exploring the wreckage.

2) Sel and whoever is involved will post rumors and flyers, then meet with the players who are interested both IC and ooc and take notes of what they wish to do/investigate. If provided with the table mentioned above he will gather the rolls and provide the results.

3) He will then provide the notes to DM X OOC and meet with Captain peg leg IC to discuss the next steps.

4) if required Sel will gather any resource from the players and pass them to the DM.

5) Based on the information gathered the DM will prepare an outcome in the events that progress the story.

For those who are familiar with cyberpunk this role would be similar to that of the fixer who liaises with the Merc and the client while keeping out of the action if that makes sense.


PROs

- More time for the DM to focus on the actual event;
- Less spam on the DM mailbox;
- Quicker replies;
- Better record keeping;
- The DM won't have to repeat the same information a barbaric amount of times;
- Less tedious work for the DM;
- RP is definitely better with a human than an automated NPC;
- Ideally the assisting players will have a direct line of communication with the DM

CONs

- As all things, it presents risks of favouritism and attention must be paid that the assisting players act in a fair manner.
- As we cannot ask the assisting players to act in a way that makes no sense for their character, more than one of them might be required in order to cover all the involved factions.
- There might be timezones issues so it might be necessary to integrate this system with an automated one proposed by Zhazz.
- The assisting player will have a lot of recordkeeping to do while giving up on a reward and a more central role. This will be compensated by having a whole load of RP.


I would be willing to volunteer my character for a trial and see if it works out. Of course any suggestion/feedback or rotten eggs if you dislike the idea are welcome.

Over and out.

[DM Spartacus]

Most of the things asked for here and in the other two threads are all after a fashion in play and one of the issues with a hobby based on imagination is that seldom do two people see anything quite the same and I would ask people to consider a broader view as acceptable if we ever want to move beyond long debates with little consensus.

An npc gatherer of information is a new thing and may prove useful for a certain type of event.

Currently there is a plot in play where items can be gathered as currency towards a certain goal representing effort. So the point there is as a model it has been used in the past and is currently.

Recording events and participants is a process already in use but not necessarily public but can be currently up to dm


Allowing information specialists Bar keepers, Candlekeep, bards etc (anyone who wishes such a role really) are informally fed information currently to drive and support longer plots.

So this all currently can and does happen. Whether it needs any tweaks for visibility and sense of inclusion for any new participants is maybe a thing a post might cover. Communication is key is nearly everything.

So like all the other threads most everything is doable but the more you mess with lore or in game build changes the more people are involved and things naturally slow due to participation and effort required and note it may be undoing some previous work by other players or infrequent players who nonetheless want and are entitled to take part

So here and forgive me for keeping this in one post, elsewhere, nearly everything mentioned and is covered so the issue is not so much status quo but achieving with the current system which is what we try to use. So use player request system to best effect aware that some requests will be slower than others the more complicated they are. Perhaps outline a general ambition but take smaller steps.

Everything is subject to a reality check and current systems can deal with everything mentioned but I acknowledge not to everyones satisfaction and we can work on that from both ends with clear communication and an awareness that simple gets more done in smaller but hopefully frequent steps

Be aware the more your steps effects others then the more complicated it may get and maybe the more rewarding but have patience here

I should add if you have opinions in reply beyond the topic here you add them to the appropriate topic thanks

[selhan]

To give a practical example.

Let's say that DM X starts a plot. In the starting event a ship sinks in the Sea of Swords.
Let's say that Sel (and whoever else wants to do that) volunteers himself and his fine establishment to assist in the plot.

1) After discussing the details with DM X, the NPC Captain Peg-leg takes residence at the Broken Goblet and informs Sel that he is interested in exploring the wreckage.

2) Sel and whoever is involved will post rumors and flyers, then meet with the players who are interested both IC and ooc and take notes of what they wish to do/investigate. If provided with the table mentioned above he will gather the rolls and provide the results.

3) He will then provide the notes to DM X OOC and meet with Captain peg leg IC to discuss the next steps.

4) if required Sel will gather any resource from the players and pass them to the DM.

5) Based on the information gathered the DM will prepare an outcome in the events that progress the story.

For those who are familiar with cyberpunk this role would be similar to that of the fixer who liaises with the Merc and the client while keeping out of the action if that makes sense.

Well...on this side of the world, I have had Dm's initiate rumors in a busy day of rp in the tavern and I would make posts about it labeling the DM's name so players could Pm the DM to inform of interest or had players come to the tavern to ic ask of me in regards or ask whats the recent "word" in order to help push out some DM events. Nice example there btw but yeah maybe more so, Events more incline to the different territories around the Server. Some place in the Gate, Roaringshore, Soulbar, Fai, UD hubs etc. . But active Volunteers to try and stay put like I do would be a rare case ontop of time zones. I had intended to make the Goblet pretty much that a hub between South and North for ppl to come pick up rumors. But then I lost my Southerners after the sacrifice of elves event, and reduced my visitors to mainly neutral / evil /chaotic aligned players lol! But hey if I get a DM npc kickin down a rumor to me, ppl can ask or pay for it! I go to the Undercellar if I need to push out a DM rumor plot that aligns over in the Gate. Some already know when my scry flag "Bartender in the Goblet" is up , I likely have a rumor to push out.

[DM SummerBreeze]

We actually tried the assistant DM thing once before a couple years ago and it didn't work out. I cant recall entirely what the issues were but i think part of it was participation and part of it was it just ended up creating an extra bottleneck and didn't really change anything.

In theory its a good idea, but im not sure if it works in practice.

Also as Sparty said above, a lot of this is already in play as it is.


I know for me, the easiest way (and I always tell folks this) is to either ping me on Discord or to send a forum PM directly to me, and not the DM team as a whole if its event related, that way it doesnt get lost in the shuffle.

I know for me the problems I always run into are with communication. I had a lengthy discussion with a player and their friends recently about this, where they were quitting the server because the DM's werent paying attention to their RP and their requests, the problem was they didnt post on the forums and didnt post in the DM screen and didn't reach out to us at any point other than once, the rest of their time was spent sitting in town waiting for a DM to show up. They're not alone in this either, i've seen plenty of players who just wait around for DM's or expect to get noticed when we're not actually in game. Outside of being DMs we are also players, and also have lives, jobs ect that we have to deal with. Lots of folks can only dedicate so much time to DMing in any given week.

As Sparty says and to echo that point further, communication is a big thing, we have more than one place now to communicate but if folks dont use -either- of them those people are simply going to fall off our radar. Thats the truth of it. Not to mention at this time, there are only 3 active full DM's on the team. (Not including Ghost.) Everyone else are ADM's, some of which are very busy with real life stuff atm.

[DaloLorn]

Not to mention at this time, there are only 3 active full DM's on the team. (Not including Ghost.) Everyone else are ADM's, some of which are very busy with real life stuff atm.

This sounds like a call to action! Let's see those applications, people!

[Steve]

Not to mention at this time, there are only 3 active full DM's on the team. (Not including Ghost.) Everyone else are ADM's, some of which are very busy with real life stuff atm.

This sounds like a call to action! Let's see those applications, people!

What I don’t understand is why Players aren’t being actively “poached” to DM.

[Louvaine]

They are. Maybe there could be more to it, I don't know, but I can tell you now that a bunch of DMs I worked with were encouraged or convinced to apply by other members of Staff or player base, including myself being encouraged by Vagrant, a player and a DM (keeping their DM handle secret in case that's what they'd want). Do you think there's more to be done to aid present and future DMs in increasing number of applications?

[Ghost]

Sometimes, even if I would vote yes on their application, some people are such important RP contributors as players that making them DMs actually is a net negative for the RP of the server. I've seen that happen a few times over the years: Fantastic RPers that people flock to for RP because they inspire and take initiative in day-to-day RP, and then they become DM. They get a look behind the scenes and all the realisations that come with that, and they also stop being online as much as players because they now start splitting their time.

That isn't to say that's always how it goes. They can - and I've also seen this - become some of the greatest DMs we've had. But the risk is still there. Mostly saying this as food for thought.

I still would rather encourage people to apply and even vote yes for those for whom this might be a concern. But it is a concern I think is important to reflect over and not throw under a rug.

[DaloLorn]

What I'm hearing here is that Sel should never be DM.

Jokes aside, it's an interesting concern. I'm not sure I'm personally familiar with many such RP generators, though I suspect a lot of them tend to be single-character players because of the consistency that provides for their presence in the world...

[Steve]

When I say poaching, that’s not a “you should apply!” but a “you are a DM” without vote.

That’s how it went for me: TheVoid poached me and kinda forced me to DM, because that’s what he wanted!

Well, I did also apply twice since I was a DM, being denied both times. And even though I was insulted in my let down answer, I still told the Team that I’d DM whenever they wanted. I’m still not a DM. And also why I don’t bother applying anymore.

Which is why I say stop denying people and have them feel unwanted or “not good enough for BGTSCC” and just poach people.

[DM SummerBreeze]

Not to mention at this time, there are only 3 active full DM's on the team. (Not including Ghost.) Everyone else are ADM's, some of which are very busy with real life stuff atm.

This sounds like a call to action! Let's see those applications, people!

What I don’t understand is why Players aren’t being actively “poached” to DM.

Some of them are, actually. Not everyone wants to be a DM though, in fact, most I would say dont want to. Outside of all the reasons Ghost also mentioned above.

[Steve]

Not everyone wants to be a DM though, in fact, most I would say dont want to.

But it is really a lot of fun! Well...for sure the IG DMing part of being a DM.

Which brings me to make the suggestion that perhaps BGTSCC needs a "Third Tier" DM that is solely Campaign oriented, Event oriented. No minimum hours, no need to vote or participate on backroom decisions (unless they want to). But to be focused on pumping Life into the NPCs and storybuilding of the World. And perhaps with some limitations on the client as well—as in rewards granting—that would help "protect" against going off the rails?!?

[Steve]

Subject: Update on Open question to team evil/morally questionable

Personally, I famously hate requests and think that people should just RP and then post it on the forums so we know they are RPing. I really like playing off the RP that is going on in the server myself.

I was also against the idea of opening up the Bio program again for the same reasons, it creates huge workload that is difficult to take on.

Not all DM's love doing player requests, and right now we are sorely lacking in DM's.


So yes, to Steve's point, being honest here.

I snipped this from the other thread, because I thought it may be more pertinent to here.

In the past, the formula for DM attention WAS either IG actions observed by a DM, or Forum posts recording IG actions—sometimes solely Forum based actions in RP threads—and then forwarding said post to the DM Team requesting a response.

Not that the old system was better, but it also wasn't such a System in which it implies it will work for you, as in, you WILL get a response, that it IS a request that will be reacted to. Since we know this isn't happening enough, and in some famous instances totally failed resulting in yuuuuge fallout, perhaps the old system actually is better.

I also think something that Gholaman brought up should be considered: more support or acceptance that Players nudge NPCs and IG environment more, and when it totally is beyond acceptable, THEN the DM(s) applies a retconn or perhaps just a reduction of a more appropriate sort.

So, less Requests before the Action, and more Actions that Only Require Responses when a) out of place; b) a DM wishes to react to.

I mean, I fully accept that on BGTSCC, my own RP is nothing any DMs are interested in. So, why even make a request to the Team to help me out? Of course, that means I should tailor my RP to not interact much with the Environment, but yeah, I still go and interact with the Environment and not ask Request Permission and post about it and wait out to see if the DMs disapprove.

If it flies, it flies.

I also know that certain Players already bypass the DM Request form and just contact whatever DM they have a good relationship with, and try and get their RP supported that way. Which honestly, is the best, because we players need better relationships with the DMs overall, and even though that shouldn't translate into getting what you want, it will make it a better community to play in, to DM in, and to enjoy directly or indirectly.

[DM SummerBreeze]

Not everyone wants to be a DM though, in fact, most I would say dont want to.

But it is really a lot of fun! Well...for sure the IG DMing part of being a DM.

Which brings me to make the suggestion that perhaps BGTSCC needs a "Third Tier" DM that is solely Campaign oriented, Event oriented. No minimum hours, no need to vote or participate on backroom decisions (unless they want to). But to be focused on pumping Life into the NPCs and storybuilding of the World. And perhaps with some limitations on the client as well—as in rewards granting—that would help "protect" against going off the rails?!?

I realize you havent DM'd in a while, but we haven't had stuff like minimum hours ect for years now. DM's are mostly free to do and participate in what they want to.

The issue is ( in my person opinion.) is we have a culture on the server that relies too heavily on putting in DM requests and not enough on making it happen in game without constant DM supervision. There's a lot of stuff that just doesn't need a DM until you get to a certain point. Its also difficult to DM for people who sit inside their guild halls or whatever all day with their friends, because they're not out in the open or grouped up outside for us to mess with

[zhazz]

The issue is ( in my person opinion.) is we have a culture on the server that relies too heavily on putting in DM requests and not enough on making it happen in game without constant DM supervision.

That culture didn't come about on it's own, though. At least I don't see why it would?
Something must have happened at one point or another, which created that culture. A culture which is now so ingrained that it's difficult to get rid of.
A retrospective on the process of us getting to this point, might help figure out how we can gradually change that culture. Though I am aware it could be substantial task — albeit perhaps reduced by purely looking at rules changes and announcements made since the server was first established?

As for an actual DM support system, I still think the best option is to remove the workload from the DMs, by providing automation for, but not limited to:

• Character name change
• Constructing guild halls (Effort NPC)
• Establishing outposts (Effort NPC)
• Reclaiming lost items
• Swapping feats
  A new feat may fit a character better thematically, where a current feat was only picked because no better option was available at the time.
• Persisting temporary changes
  After a DM sets up access to a temporary area, or makes changes to an existing one, those changes could be persisted somehow, so a server reset doesn't eat them

Additionally it could be a good idea to provide some transparency into the distribution of requests DMs handle. That might highlight other options for potential automation.

The DM Requests page is a great way of standardizing requests, but it also doesn't offer any transparency for the player. There's no way for a player to know if the request has even been looked at yet by a DM; if a DM is looking into it (and if so: who?); nor easily organize communication for the request. Any follow-ups to the request is currently done through PMs, which of course just spam DM inboxes.

I've advocated before for staff at least trying out a true ticket-based request system. Though it was shot down in the past in lieu of keeping everything contained to the forum (at least that's what I recall the reason being). Unfortunately a forum is not a great system for managing requests. Especially the phpBB forums, which is several years (10+ or so?) outdated by now in terms of features compared to other forum solutions.


That's all to say that I still find there to be a lot of improvements available for both staff and players to ease the request workload and response times. Someone will have to make it possible of course. Though maybe a good start on that topic is to challenge the status-quo of the current forum used, and look for alternatives — alternatives which meet the desired requirements for both staff and players.