Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

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Lambert
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Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by Lambert »

So if I understand drow are KOS on the surface?

But drow on the surface and the UD have to give an rp out?

Surfacers are not KOS in UD?

Comment: I suggest PvP rules be amended. There is no real feeling of danger or player challenge on this server. I think if the PvP rules are changed then more players will join BG then you’ll lose due to the rule change.

I think setting someone to hostile should give sufficient warning of intent. Wither that be done on log in or right before attack. Characters can detect threats and a drawn weapon is enough warning of intent. There are Alsace spaces for the sensitive player but if the whole server is a big safe space most players will not join. Maybe experiment with this and keep the traditional rules for server one and a more hardcore rule set for server two. See if I’m right and more people join server two.

Lam

Ps sorry for auto correct spelling I’m typing on my iPad.
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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by Aspect of Sorrow »

Additional consequences in the PW would increase the quality of the PW, but I don't believe PvP is it. There are spaces that this would make sense in, and there's a solid argument for it in a variety of storytelling aspects but rarely is it effectual and would need a decent deal of oversight given the OOC fallout that frequently accompanies. The outpost system gave reason for this space to exist and that was only taken up a few times and just isn't actively pursued by the majority of the playerbase, nor did it introduce additional players to the PW for it. There are PWs that are recent creations in the past few years which also operate a more PvP supportive environment but at the time of this writing, on a weekend, the server that is so frequently touted as a pinnacle for PvP opportunity has only two players connected compared to the 30 connected to BGTSCC.
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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by Lambert »

If true that is a good observation. Why are Arelith numbers so high Aspect of Sorrow?
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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by Steve »

Lambert wrote: Sun Dec 29, 2024 12:02 pm So if I understand drow are KOS on the surface?

But drow on the surface and the UD have to give an rp out?

Surfacers are not KOS in UD?
As I read it, it is not exactly as you have presented it.
- Underdark players on the surface, and surface players within the tunnels of the Underdark, who have been identified are considered to have consented to PvP and may be killed on sight. The exceptions are for the city of Sshamath and the Upperdark, where all involved are still required to follow normal PvP rules.
The above quoted from PvP Rules post on this Forum, states that both Drow on the Surface AND Surfacers in the "tunnels"—which to me means anything not Sshamath—are KOS when they have been identified as either Drow or Surfacer (non-Drow, non-Duergar, non-Tannurrak...a bit more complicated for Tieflings).

Just to reiterate, Drow on the Surface must be in very disguising outfits—just hoods are not enough to hide features—and the same for Surfacers, in order to just KOS without giving an RP out. RP "outs" are not given by the aggressor. You as the player RP a bunch of hostility, but if the Drow or Surfacer "give and RP out" and get the puck out of there, then you have to let them without attacking. There are however plenty of RP interactions that "give consent" to PvP, and those are rather well documented here.

All that said, I always had hope that the Upperdark areas would be full KOS Areas, of high danger, and a place in which Underdarkers (from essentially the populated Middledark) and Surfacers could wage ultimate conflict...which is honestly quite a lot of fun for many players. And, if you didn't want to be a part of that, you just never took your PC to the Upperdark areas.

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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by Aspect of Sorrow »

Arelith's PvP is largely inconsequential beyond a 48 hour non-contact. Their population is high given the low bar of entry into the PW, and the content they provide with the near-vanilla NWN experience.
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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by Zar'shalee »

Aspect of Sorrow wrote: Sun Dec 29, 2024 3:24 pm Arelith's PvP is largely inconsequential beyond a 48 hour non-contact. Their population is high given the low bar of entry into the PW, and the content they provide with the near-vanilla NWN experience.
Maybe the reason why they have that many people is content and RP generating content Arelith PW provides, which is - lets face it- Leagues above BTSCC.

Add KOS:
KOS rule is very vague. Ultimately it is frowned upon to just PvP tag someone and start attacking them without any RP given or providing RP out, only because you are "allowed" to KOS.
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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by Aspect of Sorrow »

Ariente wrote: Wed Jan 01, 2025 5:26 pm
Aspect of Sorrow wrote: Sun Dec 29, 2024 3:24 pm Arelith's PvP is largely inconsequential beyond a 48 hour non-contact. Their population is high given the low bar of entry into the PW, and the content they provide with the near-vanilla NWN experience.
Maybe the reason why they have that many people is content and RP generating content Arelith PW provides, which is - lets face it- Leagues above BTSCC.
It's a point of contention frequently noted.
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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by Tekill »

You could try an loosen the rules around pvp and conflict. But many many many people have tried before and failed.
There is a strong sentiment for safety. At this point I think it would be wiser to lean in on this sentiment and create a sever that supports that sort of social interaction. Maybe focus on selling people a safe space where you can enjoy hardcore rp that's not related to combat. A server that let's the DMs carefully apply light hints of danger while you focus on digging deep to uncover all those layers of social angst thats all bottled up inside you allowing you to grow into the lords and ladies you were meant to be.
I think if you make it clear that is what this server is about you can better sell it. People who want this will then be able to better seek it out.
I think it would end a lot of confusion for a lot of us who prefer other elements of RP.
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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by Aspect of Sorrow »

Tekill wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 6:19 pm You could try an loosen the rules around pvp and conflict. But many many many people have tried before and failed.
There is a strong sentiment for safety. At this point I think it would be wiser to lean in on this sentiment and create a sever that supports that sort of social interaction. Maybe focus on selling people a safe space where you can enjoy hardcore rp that's not related to combat. A server that let's the DMs carefully apply light hints of danger while you focus on digging deep to uncover all those layers of social angst thats all bottled up inside you allowing you to grow into the lords and ladies you were meant to be.
I think if you make it clear that is what this server is about you can better sell it. People who want this will then be able to better seek it out.
I think it would end a lot of confusion for a lot of us who prefer other elements of RP.
I think it would end a lot of confusion for a lot of us who prefer other elements of RP.
There's more confusion in the claim that PvP generates RP, when the value propositions have been vague, non existent, and or same-theme to many other facets of RP that currently exist. If these claims cannot be self sufficient in a culture that is lore backed for being contentious with itself, what benefit does it do for spilling out into the general population other than attempts to satiate angst for the lack of its success in a space that should be successful by default?

How many Drow PvP inclusive servers are still standing in NWN2 that have a population greater than JEGs?
Can you point them out to me on this list?
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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by Tekill »

Aspect of Sorrow wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:02 pm Can you point them out to me
I say PVP is a candy mint thats less filling and you say potato.

Anyways, just for clarification on this thread, the RP out rule now trumps the kos rule, right?

Regardless of the answer, I would play your character like it would be kos when when you meet anyone at all but I then give an rp out to anyone you meet that your intent to engage in pvp. It is a very simple way to avoid anyone getting overly sensitive.

But again my point here is that people on this server are generally convinced pvp is a potato, and since this seems to be the common belief of those that play here, lean in on it and own it- make it a selling point.
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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by Zar'shalee »

Aspect of Sorrow wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2025 7:02 pm ....How many Drow PvP inclusive servers are still standing....
Can we stop using terms like "drow PvP" please? It tags all drow players as PvP mongers and I hate it...
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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by Lambert »

I think a BG is a good server with longevity. It has flaws. I don’t think being content unresponsive is one of them. My experiences with the BG DM team overall has been excellent. Wildelf was probably the best DM I have ever played with in my life, which is saying a lot as I’ve played with some good to great ones.

The staff was super willing to allow Zau’Afin to expand, even add a dungeon if we found a builder. And the Zau’Afin compound is awesome.

Also, I’ve never really had that bad of an interaction with a DM. Hose that were slightly like that were mostly due to misunderstandings likely on both our parts.

Frankly I agree that PvP can be overdone and some people are better at it than others. However, forgotten realms is a violent world filled with monsters and is suppose to be dangerous. BG has no feeling of danger.

Yes, BG has numbers, but it is shrinking. You are competing for a small player pool and Aerilith has a lot more players. A lot more. I would study the aspects that make it so and make server 2 almost a perfect mirror of it. So BG server one is the kiddy pool and server two is the pool with the deep end. Players can move from server to server for safety or challenge. Some fish are salt water and some fresh. I wouldn’t say BG role players are the best rpers in the rpg universe, nor do I think most of them feel that they are, but if your Achilles heal is your lack of humility then be cautious. It’s a bad look to be an elitist. We are all works in progress. You may be turning off new players. I remember when I first started playing NWN 1 on TGC we always broke in the new players by teaching them how to rp.

I have greatly enjoyed my drow experiences. I learned a lot about organizational psychology from it. It kind of mirrors some organizations in the US. Also, I learned a lot about survival as my first drow was a ranger and was hunted for eight months as a heretic by two drow houses. Vast majority of the time I ran and hid. But I did engage in PVP slaying the two Matrons in a battle which was a trap for them. I also killed the Zau’Afin Matrin three times. Eventually, because of my tactics, strategy, and luck I became the personal dread guard of Eloril Zau afín. That was a long rp. I was promised to have my heretic title expunged if I served as a Dreadgaurd. Even then Yath’tallar Eclav promised to sacrifice me once Zau’Afin made it to Maemyrdra, a new city. My most epic battle was being hunted by a surface party of four to five surfacers who I brought into the UD and had them cross paths with a Zau afín hunting party. They fought and I escaped. So yes there was some PvP but also a lot of rp. Dale lands drow rp was the best drow rp I’ve ever had in a nwn2 server. We all have broad and dense rp experience, so do not use the belief that your the best rper to excuse your inability to cope with the challenge of PvP.

That being said, PvP can be annoying as well, in particular when people steam role you with it. Dev Lin barged into a dm event for Zau afín on BG and attacked us. Zau afín at the time was just forming and they were horrible pvpers. Dev Lin was a group of four to five players with a lot of PvP experience and I think hey we’re on microphones via discord. That was annoying but still I would have been ok with it if they were willing to be more cooperative.

In any case the more happy players and the better the communit environment the better for all. Whatever BG is doing seems to be working for server one, not so much with server two, using the same metrics.

You guys have created, maintained, and developed a great server, but not a perfect one. Victory favors the bold. :)

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Lam
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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by JustAnotherGuy »

Lambert wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2025 10:30 am Frankly I agree that PvP can be overdone and some people are better at it than others. However, forgotten realms is a violent world filled with monsters and is suppose to be dangerous. BG has no feeling of danger.

Yes, BG has numbers, but it is shrinking. You are competing for a small player pool and Aerilith has a lot more players. A lot more.
PvP has been and always will be a tricky thing. The main issue I see is that the game was not designed or built around it, and so it is very imbalanced. Typically (though there are exceptions, of course) those who enjoy PvP are built around it, and can easily kill those who are not. Then you have issues where PvP is hard to RP for many. For instance, I've seen toons lose in PvP who should have absolutely dominated the other person; this was due to player inability to PvP, or server lag.

I personally feel that PvP has its place, but that this place should be far between for those players who do not wish to actively seek it out. If some do wish to seek it out, it shouldn't be at the expense of those who tolerate PvP as part of RP and don't really enjoy it.

I think a feeling of no danger has to do more with the RPer than anything. If you don't have a feeling of danger while going up against a black dragon, that's not a fault of the content, but of the person who isn't RPing that they are going up against an incredibly powerful creature. Personally, I don't have my toons do dungeon delving for the sake of it. Partially because I just do not like dungeon delving. But partly because he doesn't see the benefit to risking his life for shiny baubles. Each and every outing should feel like a risk to the toon's life. If it doesn't, then it is my opinion that the player has the wrong mindset.

As to BG shrinking; yes, its numbers are a bit small right now. However, I remember times where I'd be online for 6+ hours all by myself just doing loot runs and hoping someone else would log in. I also remember when the server was hitting 96 people at a time, and you had to refresh over and over to try and get an open slot once someone logged out.

While it may be true that we are competing against other servers for numbers, I prefer to think of it as less of "us versus them" and more "all of us together trying to regrow the pool of players". Servers seem not to rise and fall based upon what features they have, but rather the atmosphere of community that they have. There's lots of features on other servers I'd like to see implemented in BGTSCC, features that I personally think that make for a better experience on the surface. However, BGTSCC is "out competing" all of them.
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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

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I want to add that "conflict" role-play will forever be difficult to manage and/or provide fair AND exciting Rules if the community continues to use PvP (player-versus-Player) instead of the much better RP-focused term of CvC (Character versus Character). Why?

PvP (player versus player) really means just that: a player utilizing all their OOC and mechanical knowledge plus whatever "edge" they've built or cultivated to "win" conflict engagements, usually using the mechanics of whatever game is hosting this play.

CvC (Character versus Character) is conflict where one player is NOT trying to "beat the other guy/gal" behind the screen for recognition and ego, but to role-play the in-character reasons for said conflict, which are far more varied and rich than just mechanical beat downs.

Is there really a difference and do words/definition matter here? Absolutely. PvP is about winning at all costs. CvC is about dealing with circumstance in-character and not having to deal with drama outside the game related to winning/losing. CvC is also supportive of collaboration between players and factions even if their PCs are at each other's throats. PvP tends to make someone a loser...and if that is a general result in so many of these conflict encounters, why would you expect anyone to come back for more?

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Re: Trying to understand Drow PvP rules

Unread post by Tekill »

PvP describes the part of CvC where the characters specifically try to kill each other. The physical act of love...err..CvC.

Your all welcome to share your feeling and opinions on PvP and CvC. I tried to deflect the conversation away from such debate of opinions, in my earlier post because there has been countless discussions, debates and flame wars on the topic.

Steve as usual, has triggered me enough to reply again.
The number one mistake I have seen is we (including myself) have consistently mistaken our opinions on the subject for facts. We all are making fairly reliable and valid arguments in my option, at least to one degree or another, regardless of side of the argument you are on. But they are still mainly based on our specific preferences.

I will say that one major variable that definitely affects our OPINIONS, especially for the side that is con pvp/cvc, is way the rules and overall philosophy of BGTSCC affect pvp/cvc

A couple specific examples:
1) Death penalties. What is the current death penalty - a temporary debuff?!
That's nothing. There is no consequence to dying. So there is no consequence to causing others to die. That affects our cvc decision. If dying had actual consequence I would think twice about trying to kill you or more importantly dying myself while trying to kill you.

2) The difficulty level of the game. Easy mode- where a lot of builds can easily solo much of the material in the game. It creates an over all false sense of security (boredom). We are not struggling adventurers we are legendary immortal gods. The notion of anyone striking us down is absurd! It can not be allowed to happen!!!

3) Ease of leveling and power creep. I get 80 exp for talking to someone every few seconds!!!
If I have to fugue I can get the experience back right away. No fear of dying no fear of consequences of our mortality. The race is to level 30 and godhood-This plays out in our RP. Once we hit 30 and gathered all the best gear, there is nothing left to do but strut around peacocking. In my opinion there seems really very little interest in RP from any of you at this point, let alone cvc.

4)Heavy PVP rules that demonize pvp/cvc - Yes, the rules protect the players and per the status quo they are required. But heavy pvp rules and the enforcement of such has a side effect of portraying pvp and to a degree cvc as being immoral. Something only a pvp monger is interested in.

4)Heavy PVP rules that demonizes pvp/cvc also takes a lot of good RP off the table. Make the pvp monger a wanted fugitive hunted by 50% of the server. By not keeping the pvp/cvc in character, criminalizing OOC instead of IC, we will never see the positive effects of pvp/cvc.

I am sure there are lots of counter arguments that you may want to focus in on regarding the specifics of some of my examples. My main point here is that the overall server philosophy as a whole deters PVP/CVC and the reason for this is largely connected to other issues.

As mentioned the alternative to sweeping changes at this point is to simply lean into the no pvp thing and advertise the server as a Heavy RP Social server.
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