Detect Evil proposition for DM ruling to handle it reasonably

[Mork]

So this proposition stems from recent discord discussion about Detect Evil. It is proposition that doesn't require any mechanical changes but a simple DM ruling I invite staff to discuss among internally and possibly add to rulings that facilitate better understanding of the topic by all players.


1. Detect Evil exists on the server for clerics as a spell and for paladins as ability narratively. As such it is present in such characters sheet in regards to "play your sheet" rule.
2. Detect Evil can be enforced only with DM present.
3. Detect Evil can be used without DM present and result of it can be discussed by players OOCly without being enforced in any form. This means target of this spell without DM present can:
- Ignore it completely
- Choose to reveal his characters alignment
- Claim to come prepared and have apropriate potions/wands that make discerning effect fail and respond oocly spell has no effect.

4. Evil characters are encouraged to avoid others with this ability if they wish to remain undetected. Joining Paladin led-guilds or good aligned guilds with Clerics that have this spell for prolonged considerably long time as evil character is ill advised. Prancing around Paladin within the guild for years and laughing it off as "there's no DM present lalala bite me!" is not expected way to handle narrative.

Above points (possibly worded differently) as a ruling would help both sides of good and evil understand that:
1. Evil side should understand that hiding your alignment for prolonged time and under constant presence of one with that ability is difficult.
2. Good side should understand detect evil is not a tool meant to fire off every 6 seconds to read peoples auras instantly in every brief interaction with each other.

With that established officially as a DM ruling I feel we have very fine and balanced way of handling this part of Faerunian lore that is very much present in canon without any need for mechanical changes.

[MissClick]

What benefit would Detect Evil provide in a narrative sense? It stifles more roleplay than it provides in allowance, and does away with infiltration entirely.

You would effectively be segregating an already small player base by further limiting possible interactions and forcing evil into its own server playpen - more so than they already are. This presents more as a 'win tactic' then anything that would provide a narrative boon. It makes for better storytelling (in a persistent world) to discern another's alignment through in-character action and study thereof, rather than a single spell.

Furthermore, if infiltration of either alignment is underway, the DM team is likely already aware of it through examination of a character's sheet and/or biography. I have my doubts that they would be 'prancing around' unknowingly. And, if someone is behaving a way they should not around NPC paladin or clerics whom do have those capabilities, it can be assumed they would be confront over metagaming. Presumably, it may otherwise be pursued and thus subject to the permadeath rules outlined and associated with that course of action. An infiltrator is likely to slip up eventually. If not? Props to them.

A detect alignment spell isn't required.

[renshouj]

It should definitely not be allowed to be used without a DM present. It's very very simple, the spell exists in the world, but it functions as per our rule regarding PnP Spells (READ HERE). As in, it exists in the narrative but you need a DM present and likely have been communicated prior. Again, very simple.

If anything, the DMs adding examples to the ruling I linked and including "Detect Evil" would likely suffice for this discussion. Again, simple: it's a spell that exists, can't be used without DM supervision.

[Mork]

What benefit would Detect Evil provide in a narrative sense?

It would provide canonical equivalent to the ability that game system that we all agreed to play in very much has. As established on the discord discussion it does exist. If it would be ret-conned and ripped out of the world reality as an element of IC lore then it would be different. I am not a fan of evil chars ignoring it's existence entirely just like I'm not a fan of it being spammed every 6 seconds like in times when it existed on the server mechanically in the past (and caused all sorts of problems).

Infiltration is fine. Prancing around Paladin with big middle finger to all logic cause "no DMs are present" for years within guild structures sounds a bit less fine to me.

[MissClick]

It would provide canonical equivalent to the ability that game system that we all agreed to play in very much has. As established on the discord discussion it does exist.

It exists in PnP, yes, though I would be inclined to point out the intended use is not on members of your party but instead DM NPCs and the setting entire. It is simply not feasible in a persistent world.

If you require a reasonable in-character explanation for why your paladin is unable to divine evil intent through their prayer or blessings, it might be explained or assumed that the other is suppressing or masking their villainous aura (and thus no fault falls on you). The paladin character(s) I most commonly interact with tend to adopt this method.

[renshouj]

Prancing around Paladin with big middle finger to all logic cause "no DMs are present" for years within guild structures sounds a bit less fine to me.

dont make up problems that dont exist

[Mork]

It should definitely not be allowed to be used without a DM present.

It should not be enforced without DM present - I agree.
It should be fine to use it when two players discuss the results oocly with targeted player having all power to decide how the result turns out to be on his side and entirely in his control (without DM present).

[renshouj]

It should definitely not be allowed to be used without a DM present.

It should not be enforced without DM present - I agree.
It should be fine to use it when two players discuss the results oocly with targeted player having all power to decide how the result turns out to be on his side and entirely in his control.

It would make no sense to allow it to be used but not enforced. Change the name of the spell "Detect Evil, Sometimes".
The spell exists, it cannot be used without DM supervision. Simple. If players want to tell you their alignment (which again they might just lie), they can already do so.

[Mork]

dont make up problems that dont exist

Would you prefer the problem to happen first like it did before when existence of the mechanical spell caused problems? I feel like simple DM ruling would help avoid such problems and project mutual understanding of how things are expected to be handled narratively.

[renshouj]

The DM ruling already exists, its just broad. But as I linked, spells that exist in lore exist in BGTSCC and may be referenced, but NOT used without a DM present.

[Mork]

The spell exists, it cannot be used without DM supervision. Simple.

Server admin just confirmed on discord that it can be used without DM supervision. Just not enforced. If you claim otherwise bring that argument to server admin.

[renshouj]

The spell exists, it cannot be used without DM supervision. Simple.

Server admin just confirmed on discord that it can be used without DM supervision. Just not enforced. If you claim otherwise bring that argument to server admin.

his last comment about it was literally

"again its not to say you cant use it, just dm supervision is good so we can make sure its all alright/etc blahbah"

so, DM supervision

[renshouj]

The spell exists, it cannot be used without DM supervision. Simple.

Server admin just confirmed on discord that it can be used without DM supervision. Just not enforced. If you claim otherwise bring that argument to server admin.

The image you edited in is literally what I said: If someone wants to just tell you their alignment, they're free to do so. And I'm very confident that goat would agree with me here.

I understand you don't like the answer you've been given and you want to be able to use Detect Evil. But you have been given an answer even if you dislike it. Can't use Detect Evil without DM supervision, simple. And the DM Ruling about PNP Spells does include this one, as it is a spell.

[Mork]

his last comment about it was literally

"again its not to say you cant use it, just dm supervision is good so we can make sure its all alright/etc blahbah"

so, DM supervision

I earlier was forced to discussion with player that claimed it doesn't exist at all in our custom lore cause It's not in our sheet. Now I see another player trying to ignore what was said on discord by admin. Just shows how much official clarification and internal discussion is needed.

[renshouj]

The PNP Spells rule is very clear. If someone wasn't aware that spells that exist in lore exist even without being mechanically represented, thats on them and youre free to correct them and point them towards the ruling. Again, the rule is clear - just as it's clear that you cant use the spell without DM supervision.