NERF THE MASTER ALCHEMIST ELIXIRS!!!

[izzul]

Speaking from experience of somoene who buys a lot of Tortoise/Owl insight elixirs and takes full advantage of them, it's hard to argue these particular two are balanced.

My character receives +9 AC from the first one and omits the penalty by prebuffing with FoM, while the other gives me +6 AC, +6 will save, +6 listen/spot ( if I were a wis-monk, I'd also get +6 AB). Furthermore, these two at highest CL last for almost the entire server reset and I have pretty much no reason to rest and dispel them.

+1

My wisdom monks chug Owl's Insight elixirs whenever they want Super Saiyan steroids. +6 AC, +6 AB, +6 Spot, for pretty much the entire server reset.
And don't forget the boost to Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm DCs.
Throw a Tortoise elixir on top of all that, and you have the tankiest of boys.

NGL, I enjoy playing a bald godling, but I shouldn't be able to. These super steroids should get a CL cap at least. I'll be disappointed if that happens, but wisdom monks should NOT have such easy access to CL 30 Owl's Insight.

Seen below: a wisdom monk on CL 30 Owl's Insight.

Hidden: show

most of the monks will already use +4 wisdom helmet. so its just extra +4 AC, +4 AB, and +4 spot. unless they dont wear it all the time.
its like a Divine Power for monks actually, and like Barbarian Rage +10 STR, +10 CON. which results to +12 STR and +12 CON with gear and +5 dodge AC with Whirlwind Frenzy and +5 extra damage. monks dont get extra damage though

[izzul]

Nerf the AK, but buff the WoD, agreed

Btw, Nerf Thief Acrobat. they shouldn't be allowed to use Tower Shield while jumping like and acrobat

[tankteddy]

Owls Insight change to 2/round per level
(Better buff then Owls wisdom so it should not last longer then it)

Turtle shell, 1/min per level (bringing it on par with Spiderskin with slightly higher AC and slow that requires FoM to bypass)

Make both Breach-able

[Xorena]

If we are going to nerf Master Alchemist elixirs then I suggest we bring all of the potions on the server in line with the generally accepted rules.

Brew potion allows one to create a potion of spells through 3rd level. Master Alchemist allows creation of elixirs through 6th 7th level. There are several potions sold at shops that are of much higher-level spells and should actually be elixirs.

Here is a list that I got off of the shops database, although there may be more potions than are listed here.

Cure critical wounds: Level 4 bard/cleric spell, level 5 druid spell
Greater Heroism: Bard 5/Sorcerer and Wizard 6
Heal: Cleric 6/Druid7.
Stoneskin: Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard 4

All of these are sold as potions. Remove these potions from vendors, convert them to equivalent elixirs if you want them to be available from shops, and then allow Master Alchemists to craft them for cheaper than what the potions sell for.

[Steve]

Nerfing elixirs CL @ 30 does not nerf the Master Alchemist PrC.

Master Alchemists should be MASTERS of their profession, but that does not or should not translate to a production of consumables that makes OTHER PCs nigh-invulnerable.

Not that it matters, but I fully support a Master Alchemist being able to conduct a viable economy through the production and sale of their wares, AND, that it should not be subject to an artificial competition of NPCs that produce a higher value product, in unlimited fashion, for either potions or elixirs.

Again, the core issue here is that CL 30 elixirs is contrary to the OOC limitation put on Scribing Scrolls, and, such limitations, if they are truly valid to uphold—since for years I've argued for "unlocking" scrolls up to CL 25—means that they are undermined SPECIFICALLY by CL 30 elixirs.

Thus, limiting Tortoise Shell and Owl's Insight falls inline with a CL cap. But seriously, having no cap for some things, and a very restrictive cap for others, is nonsense.

[Arn]

Master Alchemist allows creation of elixirs through 6th level.

Actually 7th level, right?

Anyways, I agree with Steve. To me, the biggest problem is that some elixirs allow everyone to be invincible gishes (wisdom monks in particular). To me, imposing a CL cap on elixirs fixes that problem.

[Xorena]

Master Alchemist allows creation of elixirs through 6th level.

Actually 7th level, right?

What do you know, 7th-level spells can be elixirs. You learn something new every day. I guess the reason I thought it was 6th is because that is where the most profitable elixirs are and I never bothered to try.

It is capped at 7th. I could not create a preomonition elixir (Druid/Wizard 8). I could create a 7th-level elixir from an 8th spell slot because it was an extended version of a 7th-level spell. Aura of Vitality in case you were curious (+4 Strength, Con and Dex for 6 seconds/CL at level 30).

I have had multiple requests for Storm Avatar (8th), which I know for certain does not work.

[Kitunenotsume]

If we are going to nerf Master Alchemist elixirs then I suggest we bring all of the potions on the server in line with the generally accepted rules.

I have posited this suggestion previously [link], and I generally heard supportive things of the suggestion, both on forums and elsewhere.

Master Alchemist allows creation of elixirs through 6th level.

Actually 7th level, right?

Yes, the maximum for MA is 7th level. They also become quite expensive (20 x 30 x 7 = 4,200 crafting cost, 10,500 base price).
Spell levels are judged by their relevant entry in the iprp_spells.2da, so some casters that get spells early may not qualify as well.
The P&P 10-level PRC took it all the way to 9th level spells, but clearly the 5-levels on BGTSCC are truncated both for power and brevity.


What I find curious in all this discussion is that the P&P system has a simple-yet-effective method of encouraging crafting things at the lowest possible caster-level:

Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew.
[...]
The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day.
Source: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/c ... cItems.htm

The P&P variant of Master Alchemist has a series of abilities [link], allowing for crafting 2, 3, and 4 potions per day - so long as the total price per day is not above 1000 GP.

A fair portion of the imbalance on BGTSCC, of course, is that there is no limitation on crafting nor NPC supply. While I do not disagree that CL 30 wands and scrolls should be available, I cannot condone their production without the appropriate drawbacks. A CL 30 wand for a level 4 spell would take 90-days by P&P standards (750 x 4 x 30 = 90,000).* Likewise, a scroll of the same would take 3 days (25 x 4 x 30 = 3,000gp); a 9th level scroll at CL 30 takes a full week (25x9x30 = 6750). For reference, Potions and Elixirs Base costs for the same CL 30 level 4 spell would be [50 x 4 x 30 = 6,000gp], but completed in one 8 hour brewing period.
I have seen servers that implement limitations on daily crafting values (Sundren's Crafting Fatigue system comes to mind), but is neither easy nor practical to develop or enforce (Sundren also didn't apply it to wands or scrolls, given other crafting options). However, I do think that the intended time differential between various types of item crafting should be kept in mind when discussing production balance and ratios.

Without this limitation, however, much of the impetus between choosing Master Alchemist for production (and it's 3 required feats + class levels) over scrolls (and a single feat) becomes fairly irrelevant in the face of a UMD-heavy meta that we find ourselves in and simply favors the cheaper option. While I agree with the commentary that "not everyone takes UMD", it is still apparent that anyone inclined to eek out costly advantages of using Elixirs over Scrolls is fundamentally trading significant funds for 1-30 skill-points of UMD and has a strong likelihood of having invested in that UMD anyway.
Per previous discussions [link], Wands are usable with a single point in UMD (available cross-class to everyone for 2 points out of their entire 30 levels**), while scrolls are available starting at a total modifier of 10 and guaranteed success for appropriate casters or a UMD total of 33+ (achievable with maximum skill ranks).




*: If we assume a 'day' in-game is a 20 minute rest cycle, 90 days of work would be 30 hours in-game, performing no bothersome or strenuous activity, to make a single wand. Even a minimum CL 4th level wand would take [750 x 4 x 7 = 21,000gp] so 21 days of work, or 7 hours of time spent online and out of combat. The 4th level scroll at CL 30 would take an hour in-game, and the potion/elixir would take 20 minutes, or 3 bottles an hour minimum (Faster for lower level potions). This is the actual reason for the proliferation of potions in d20 economics, because they can be made faster for the same effect, albeit at much higher cost per use.
**: P&P specifically rules against this, as UMD is explicitly barred from all but certain classes. By those rules, and the 3b20, anyone 'dipping' for even a single point of UMD would need 3 levels of rogue, bard, or warlock, or a PRC with UMD - potentially significantly reducing the number of builds capable of considering abusing UMD.

[Lockonnow]

well i can only think of one COSE OF THE CLASS IT SELF can the Elixrs not be dispell?

[Anrilor]

well i can only think of one COSE OF THE CLASS IT SELF can the Elixrs not be dispell?

Not when they are CL 30 elixirs, then they are immune unless they are on the Mord's list cause they are treated as if a level 30 casted them on the person, so full benefits and duration as if the caster was next to them, IE pocket level 30 caster for anyone who has the gold.

[Kitunenotsume]

well i can only think of one COSE OF THE CLASS IT SELF can the Elixrs not be dispell?

Greater Dispel Magic attempts to make a caster level check that caps at 20, and then adds a 1d20, against a DC of 11+ spell CL, so a CL 30 will have a DC of 41.
since 40 is always less than 41, a CL 30 spell cannot be dispelled with Greater Dispel Magic.

Mordenkainen's Disjunction performs the same check, but is not listed as having a caster-level limit. However, it requires being an arcane spellcaster with a CL greater than 20 to hope to beat the same DC of 41. so a CL 21 arcane caster has a 5% chance, while a CL 30 caster has a 50% chance to remove the elixir.
I suspect that claims that it must be on the breach list is because the CL of items of Disjunction are only CL 17, and will never succeed at dispelling any buffs of CL greater than 27.

[TheKai]

If we are going to nerf Master Alchemist elixirs then I suggest we bring all of the potions on the server in line with the generally accepted rules.

Brew potion allows one to create a potion of spells through 3rd level. Master Alchemist allows creation of elixirs through 6th 7th level. There are several potions sold at shops that are of much higher-level spells and should actually be elixirs.

Here is a list that I got off of the shops database, although there may be more potions than are listed here.

Cure critical wounds: Level 4 bard/cleric spell, level 5 druid spell
Greater Heroism: Bard 5/Sorcerer and Wizard 6
Heal: Cleric 6/Druid7.
Stoneskin: Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard 4

All of these are sold as potions. Remove these potions from vendors, convert them to equivalent elixirs if you want them to be available from shops, and then allow Master Alchemists to craft them for cheaper than what the potions sell for.

I actually love this idea. Gives healer's a role as healing/restoration won't be so readily available. And gives a greater RP opportunity for Master Alchemists and their customers.

[Hoihe]

If we are going to nerf Master Alchemist elixirs then I suggest we bring all of the potions on the server in line with the generally accepted rules.

Brew potion allows one to create a potion of spells through 3rd level. Master Alchemist allows creation of elixirs through 6th 7th level. There are several potions sold at shops that are of much higher-level spells and should actually be elixirs.

Here is a list that I got off of the shops database, although there may be more potions than are listed here.

Cure critical wounds: Level 4 bard/cleric spell, level 5 druid spell
Greater Heroism: Bard 5/Sorcerer and Wizard 6
Heal: Cleric 6/Druid7.
Stoneskin: Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard 4

All of these are sold as potions. Remove these potions from vendors, convert them to equivalent elixirs if you want them to be available from shops, and then allow Master Alchemists to craft them for cheaper than what the potions sell for.

I actually love this idea. Gives healer's a role as healing/restoration won't be so readily available. And gives a greater RP opportunity for Master Alchemists and their customers.

With the amount of damage enemies dish out, no healer will ever be able to do anything to counter it except to maybe drop an Extended Regenerate, which being a round/cl spell - would utterly ruin any party's ability to exist unless done as a wordless headless chicken run.

[EasternCheesE]

I can't agree with you, Hoihe.
I had a cleric by my side when i used shapeshifter warlock with lowish CL. We were about lvl 23-24, and we did kill Green dragon and Ziggurat black dragon in duo. Both are immune to vitriolic blast, so it basically was my mediocre AB + ~15-20 dmg per hit vs them. We spent ~20-25 minutes killing green and about 30+ to kill black one. Cleric just had enough of spells to heal my when i was dropping to very low health through all that time. And that wasn't even a pure cleric since they used their Bow and dealt some good damage with it too. So, i guess, pure cleric who knows they will have to heal a lot, can provide quite a ton of healing, including regenerate etc.
Most of time, that Cleric used Heal spell to get me back from 50 HP, Mass heal when we both got damaged and so on. If he was able to to it 20 minutes of fight straight, i don't see how cleric cannot do it in longer, but not that face-to-face fight.

[Grendunor]

This we need to Nerf X culture here needs to stop. All it does is create an environment where avenues of RP are discouraged because of Mechanical boundaries.

Open up the master alchemist class page on the wiki and examine what this 5 level class buys you on a level 30 character.

https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... _Alchemist

Skills:

RP Skill: Craft Alchemy, Craft Armor, Craft Weapon, Lore (Local)
Mechanical Skills: Appraise, Lore (Arcana)
Combat Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft

Features:

- Full caster prog (if feated) / Crafting feat (If ignoring casting Prog)
- Discounted costs on base game potion creation
- Up to CL 30 Elixirs*
- Immunity to Elixir malnus (5 level investment)
- Create elixirs of up to 7th circle spells (4 level investment)
- Inferior Alchemical Fire creation method
- 30% discount to brewed Elixirs (5 level invest)
* (Some Elixirs are hard locked to inferior CL making them worthless compared to scrolls)

So, having looked at the features and skills you can see the class -on it's own- is a net loss for basicly any build not attempting to be a dedicated crafter. A master Alchmist character is effectively gimped compared to a powerbuilt non-crafter type character.

- "But the issue is not the Alchemist but others befitting from their elixirs Gren!!!!"

Which is a fair point however keep in mind this bonus given is the MAIN if not the only attraction to the class. Their role is relegated to one of support and Roleplay.
The reason you see tortoise shell and Owls insight elixirs sticking out so much is because these are some of the very few elixirs that are attractive to combat based builds, cutting these elixirs back or otherwise nerfing them does nothing to address the perceived problem of buff bloat or "Easy content"

As it stands now the DM team and Admins have no rule about people buying alternative CD-keys to create buffing alts to then buff their character and go "Solo" content.

- "Ah but Gren surely no one is so sweaty as to do that, you're imagining a problem that does not exist"

While the main person I'm thinking of who did this does not play any longer It is still a thing that can be done and has been done.

Having level 30CL on these elixirs is important in a game where Dispelling is very much the meta. You can't walk though an Epic level zone (save Troll cave) right now without being greeted by some form of greater dispell or Mordenkienen's dis junction. This makes these Higher level adventuring zones incredibly costly to buff in be it with UMD or as a caster with CL under 29.

The logic follows then that by making these Elixirs dispellable by anything other than a full caster you carve away what made them attractive in the first place. This will relegate master alchemists to an extreme niche of play with only a few niche spells being a desired purchase. Not only weakening the class mechanically in it's supporting role but weakening it's RP as well.