Xorena wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:40 am
If we are going to nerf Master Alchemist elixirs then I suggest we bring all of the potions on the server in line with the generally accepted rules.
I have posited this suggestion previously [link], and I generally heard supportive things of the suggestion, both on forums and elsewhere.
Arn wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 10:31 am
Xorena wrote: ↑Sun Jun 27, 2021 9:40 am
Master Alchemist allows creation of elixirs through 6th level.
Actually 7th level, right?
Yes, the maximum for MA is 7th level. They also become quite expensive (20 x 30 x 7 = 4,200 crafting cost, 10,500 base price).
Spell levels are judged by their relevant entry in the iprp_spells.2da, so some casters that get spells early may not qualify as well.
The P&P 10-level PRC took it all the way to 9th level spells, but clearly the 5-levels on BGTSCC are truncated both for power and brevity.
What I find curious in all this discussion is that the P&P system has a simple-yet-effective method of encouraging crafting things at the lowest possible caster-level:
Creating an item requires one day per 1,000 gp in the item’s base price, with a minimum of at least one day. Potions are an exception to this rule; they always take just one day to brew.
[...]
The caster works for 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day.
Source: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/c ... cItems.htm
The P&P variant of Master Alchemist has a series of abilities [link], allowing for crafting 2, 3, and 4 potions per day - so long as the total price per day is not above 1000 GP.
A fair portion of the imbalance on BGTSCC, of course, is that there is no limitation on crafting nor NPC supply. While I do not disagree that CL 30 wands and scrolls should be available, I cannot condone their production without the appropriate drawbacks. A CL 30 wand for a level 4 spell would take 90-days by P&P standards (750 x 4 x 30 = 90,000).* Likewise, a scroll of the same would take 3 days (25 x 4 x 30 = 3,000gp); a 9th level scroll at CL 30 takes a full week (25x9x30 = 6750). For reference, Potions and Elixirs
Base costs for the same CL 30 level 4 spell would be [50 x 4 x 30 = 6,000gp], but completed in one 8 hour brewing period.
I have seen servers that implement limitations on daily crafting values (Sundren's Crafting Fatigue system comes to mind), but is neither easy nor practical to develop or enforce (Sundren also didn't apply it to wands or scrolls, given other crafting options). However, I do think that the intended time differential between various types of item crafting should be kept in mind when discussing production balance and ratios.
Without this limitation, however, much of the impetus between choosing Master Alchemist for production (and it's 3 required feats + class levels) over scrolls (and a single feat) becomes fairly irrelevant in the face of a UMD-heavy meta that we find ourselves in and simply favors the cheaper option. While I agree with the commentary that "not everyone takes UMD", it is still apparent that anyone inclined to eek out costly advantages of using Elixirs over Scrolls is fundamentally trading significant funds for 1-30 skill-points of UMD and has a strong likelihood of having invested in that UMD anyway.
Per previous discussions [link], Wands are usable with a single point in UMD (available cross-class to everyone for 2 points out of their entire 30 levels**), while scrolls are available starting at a total modifier of 10 and guaranteed success for appropriate casters or a UMD total of 33+ (achievable with maximum skill ranks).
*: If we assume a 'day' in-game is a 20 minute rest cycle, 90 days of work would be 30 hours in-game, performing no bothersome or strenuous activity, to make a single wand. Even a minimum CL 4th level wand would take [750 x 4 x 7 = 21,000gp] so 21 days of work, or 7 hours of time spent online and out of combat. The 4th level scroll at CL 30 would take an hour in-game, and the potion/elixir would take 20 minutes, or 3 bottles an hour minimum (Faster for lower level potions). This is the actual reason for the proliferation of potions in d20 economics, because they can be made faster for the same effect, albeit at much higher cost per use.
**: P&P specifically rules against this, as UMD is explicitly barred from all but certain classes. By those rules, and the 3b20, anyone 'dipping' for even a single point of UMD would need 3 levels of rogue, bard, or warlock, or a PRC with UMD - potentially significantly reducing the number of builds capable of considering abusing UMD.
